Shadowdancer chain backstabs vs. just attacking

PugPug

So the Shadowdancer may Hide in Shadows even while being observed by enemies, but their backstab multiplier is reduced:

Levels 1-8: 2x
Level 9+: 3x

It takes a round (6 seconds) to stealth before you can attack again, doesn't it? So isn't this:

Round 1: backstab for double damage
Round 2: stealth
Round 3: backstab for double damage
Round 4: stealth

The same as this:

Round 1: attack
Round 2: attack
Round 3: attack
Round 4: attack

?

I recognize that hiding in plain sight can be used defensively, too. Though it can be dispelled by something like True Seeing, can't it? Can some enemies see through it?

TJ_Hooker

I don't see any reason why you couldn't pull off just as many attacks with stealthing as without. Let's say you start a round off by stealthing and then immediately backstabbing. You now have to wait 6 seconds until you can enter stealth again. After the 6 seconds (1 round) is up, you can stealth and then backstab again. You're still attacking once every 6 seconds.

Edit: I was wrong about having to wait 6 seconds to re-stealth.

HeroicSpur

@PugPug: Don't forget that when attacking from shadows you get +4 to hit.

PugPug

TJ_Hooker said:

I don't see any reason why you couldn't pull off just as many attacks with stealthing as without. Let's say you start a round off by stealthing and then immediately backstabbing. You now have to wait 6 seconds until you can enter stealth again. After the 6 seconds (1 round) is up, you can stealth and then backstab again. You're still attacking once every 6 seconds.

Oh, well if the actions are totally independent of one another, never mind then.

Silly 3E and later editions...

AHF

Why do you have to wait 6 seconds after backstabbing to reenter stealth? Can't that be done instantly?

I will test this after I update.

TJ_Hooker

@AHF I'm pretty sure that there's a six second countdown from when you break stealth to when you can attempt to re-enter it. The reason his timing is off is he alloted an entire, seperate round for making the backstab, whereas in reality you can make the backstab in the same round as you enter stealth, just as quickly as you are able to reposition yourself behind the enemy.

Edit: Nope, nevermind, I was wrong.

Drusyc

With a 3/2 apr, wouldn't the rounds look like:

Round 1: backstab , stealth
Round 2: backstab, attack, stealth
Round 3: backstab, stealth?

With 1 apr, you can stealth immediately after backstabbing even while soling before the baddie notices he's been hit

I find that pausing per round seems inconsistent with the timing, but that's just me. When my fighter/ mage is meleeing and weaving magic missiles in, the time between pauses is considerably shorter... sometimes I'd have to wait for a second round pause before the missiles can be fired without delay.

Someone might be able to clarify with the timing, but I know if I watch die rolls instead of pausing for rounds, shadow dancer backstab weaving doesnt result in a diminished apr

AHF

TJ_Hooker said:

@AHF I'm pretty sure that there's a six second countdown from when you break stealth to when you can attempt to re-enter it. The reason his timing is off is he alloted an entire, seperate round for making the backstab, whereas in reality you can make the backstab in the same round as you enter stealth, just as quickly as you are able to reposition yourself behind the enemy.

Just tested. You can go back invisible immediately after backstabbing. I will now try with a SD/Fighter with multiple attacks per round.

ajwz

TJ_Hooker said:

I don't see any reason why you couldn't pull off just as many attacks with stealthing as without. Let's say you start a round off by stealthing and then immediately backstabbing. You now have to wait 6 seconds until you can enter stealth again. After the 6 seconds (1 round) is up, you can stealth and then backstab again. You're still attacking once every 6 seconds.

This guy speaks the truth.

You don't need to stop attacking after your first break from stealth. You can finish your current round of attacks and then try again

Madhax

Even if this process is as inefficient as @PugPug's evaluation, that's still attacking at +4 to hit and not suffering any counterattacks. And it'll get much, much better once the Shadowdancer reaches x3 multipliers.

AHF

With a dualed SD/Fighter you can backstab, instantly go invisible, attack again, instantly hide in shadows, etc. Attacking Firebeard with 4 APR, the SD character is going invisible 4 times per round.

The only limit is the time it takes to position the next backstab so boots of speed would be helpful for that.

TJ_Hooker

AHF said:

With a dualed SD/Fighter you can backstab, instantly go invisible, attack again, instantly hide in shadows, etc. Attacking Firebeard with 4 APR, the SD character is going invisible 4 times per round.

The only limit is the time it takes to position the next backstab so boots of speed would be helpful for that.

I actually just conducted the exact same test in may game and wow, I'm starting to see more and more what people were saying about the Shadowdancer being overpowered. I didn't even have to reposition my character in between attacks. I just made sure to pause the instant my character attacked, and then re-stealthed, and then attacked again. Firebead was too busy recoiling from each hit to even get a chance to turn around.

AHF

Madhax said:

Even if this process is as inefficient as @PugPug's evaluation, that's still attacking at +4 to hit and not suffering any counterattacks. And it'll get much, much better once the Shadowdancer reaches x3 multipliers.

It is much more efficient than that.

There is no timer at all unless you fail a hide in shadows check. Then the cool down timer comes into effect. Otherwise, you can instantly break invisibility and regain it as many times as you want.

Wowo

So, dual wielding shadowdancer is better than staff?