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Misandrist / Misogynist: better names?

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  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    @Gallowglass - IMHO a normal male PC might hesitate before striking a female, but Eldoth would not. That's what his bonus is intended to reflect.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    @Nifft - of course we can each imagine whatever we choose about any character, but I don't recall anything in Eldoth's dialogues which supports the interpretation that he's any more inclined to violence against females than any other character.

    However, in the Forgotten Realms (as the game points out at character creation) there is no effective distinction between sexes, so there's no reason to expect a cultural taboo against striking females under exactly the same conditions as might apply to striking males (except among the drow, where striking a female would presumably be a capital offence). So sure, Eldoth would strike a hostile female with no hesitation ... and so would a Paladin or any other character. And unless you're roleplaying some un-Faerunian restrictions, so should your Charname.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065

    However, in the Forgotten Realms (as the game points out at character creation) there is no effective distinction between sexes, so there's no reason to expect a cultural taboo against striking females

    If what you say is true, then perhaps I'm just imposing my own personal bias against striking females.

    That's fine with me. It's a bias which I rather like.

    Cheers, -- N
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    You could just write the mod and give it to Korgan in BG2EE.
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    edited March 2013
    I think that's essentially giving Shar-Teel a general +1 bonus to THAC0, considering how many humanoid males you get to fight in BG1.

    Also, the Eldoth +1 against females is out of character and absolutely unjustifiable. It's one thing to be a sexist sleazebag, it's another to be such a woman-hater that the rules grant you a bonus hitting them. Not to mention we are talking about a world where sexism isn't a thing.

    I'm not trying to pick a fight with the OP, and I'm certainly not accusing him of any kind of sexist behavior, but... I ain't cool with this. It brings delicate issues onto the table, and not in a progressive way.

    I'm really sorry. I'm the kinda guy who tries hard not to be uptight about things but seeing this mod proposition and the positive feedback it's getting really rubbed me the wrong way.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065

    You could just write the mod and give it to Korgan in BG2EE.

    IMHO Korgan is more of a sexist in the way Shar-Teel is a sexist, and not at all in the same way as Eldoth.
    Kilivitz said:

    I think that's essentially giving Shar-Teel a general +1 bonus to THAC0, considering how many humanoid males you get to fight in BG1.

    Also, the Eldoth +1 against females is out of character and absolutely unjustifiable. It's one thing to be a sexist sleazebag, it's another to be such a woman-hater that the rules grant you a bonus hitting them. Not to mention we are talking about a world where sexism isn't a thing.

    Have you ever had Shar-Teel in your party?

    I assure you, sexism IS a thing, and she has it.

    IMHO Eldoth also has it, but opinions on that seem to vary.


    Finally, in regards to your first point ("that's essentially giving Shar-Teel a general +1 bonus"), yeah... with Dorn in the game, I feel Shar-Teel has been nerfed. Her original proficiencies were better than her current proficiencies. So yes, I am okay with giving her a flat-out bonus.

    You're not quite correct about it being a general +1 bonus. Undead don't have a sex, nor do golems, nor some other monsters.

    But maybe an option to just give her a +1 bonus vs. Human Males. That's still quite a lot of antagonists. Hmm, food for thought.
    Kilivitz said:

    I'm not trying to pick a fight with the OP, and I'm certainly not accusing him of any kind of sexist behavior, but... I ain't cool with this. It brings delicate issues onto the table, and not in a progressive way.

    I'm really sorry. I'm the kinda guy who tries hard not to be uptight about things but seeing this mod proposition and the positive feedback it's getting really rubbed me the wrong way.

    1) These are EVIL characters. Their traits are EVIL traits. Their behavior is EVIL behavior.

    2) Giving sexist bonuses to EVIL NPCs implies that sexism is EVIL.

    3) As a paragon of Lawful Goodness, I can certify that I am not EVIL.

    Cheers, -- N
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    Nifft said:

    1) These are EVIL characters. Their traits are EVIL traits. Their behavior is EVIL behavior.

    2) Giving sexist bonuses to EVIL NPCs implies that sexism is EVIL.

    It's just that IMHO, implementing misogyny as a mechanic brings to light a rather serious topic in a frivolous way, however well-intended it might be (making it a trait of an evil character). I view it as something unnecessary that might step on some toes and make more harm than good.

    Now I don't think anyone wants or needs a presumptuous lecture on sexism, so I'll just stop right here. I don't mean to disrupt the thread with an off-topic debate. I was just compelled to voice my objection because even the thread title irked me a little bit.

    Anyhow...
    Nifft said:

    3) As a paragon of Lawful Goodness, I can certify that I am not EVIL.

    ...please don't take my criticism personally. I'm not accusing you of being evil or sexist or anything.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Kilivitz said:

    It's just that IMHO, implementing misogyny as a mechanic brings to light a rather serious topic in a frivolous way, however well-intended it might be (making it a trait of an evil character). I view it as something unnecessary that might step on some toes and make more harm than good.

    Again I ask: have you ever actually played with Shar-Teel in your party?

    She is 99.44% pure sexism in an evil can.

    Sexism is ALREADY in the game, in a very blatant way.
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    edited March 2013
    Nifft said:

    Again I ask: have you ever actually played with Shar-Teel in your party?

    She is 99.44% pure sexism in an evil can.

    Sexism is ALREADY in the game, in a very blatant way.

    That's true, but not in the way you might think it is.

    Having a man-hating female warrior is not sexism against men that needs to be evened out by making another character a misogynist as much as it is playing the stereotype of the masculine burly woman, which is very much present in our fiction.

    And it gets ugly when most of the time, such behavior is associated with a secret longing for male affection (whether because they're unattractive, because they got their heart broken or because they're gay) - now, I know that the game never implies that's her case, but there's certainly a precedent.

    You see where I'm getting at, right? I'm not saying that Shar-Teel is necessarily an offensive character. But if she is, it's certainly not to men.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Kilivitz said:

    Having a man-hating female warrior is not sexism against men

    Full stop, you lost me right here.

    Unless you're saying that sexist CHARACTERS doesn't imply sexist WRITERS... which I would agree with. Sexism exists, just like racism exists. In this game, we have Dorn and Viconia as victims of racism (but also they're evil jerks so they're not doing a whole lot to win hearts & minds).
    Kilivitz said:

    that needs to be evened out by making another character a misogynist

    IMHO Eldoth already speaks like a misogynist, just as Shar-Teel speaks as a misandrist. My intent is not to "make" him a sexist jerk, it's to express his pre-existing jerkish sexism in a mechanical way.
    Kilivitz said:

    And it gets ugly when most of the time, such behavior is associated with a secret longing for male affection (whether because they're unattractive, because they got their heart broken or because they're gay) - now, I know that the game never implies that's her case, but there's certainly a precedent.

    You see where I'm getting at, right?

    I must be misunderstanding you. What I hear you saying is that Shar-Teel is NOT offensive because OTHER characters in UNRELATED WORKS secretly want male affection? And that makes no sense.
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    Nifft said:

    Sexism exists, just like racism exists. In this game, we have Dorn and Viconia as victims of racism

    Yes. In the game. Some characters are racist, some characters are sexist, and Shar-Teel is one of them. Of course she is sexist!

    But I wasn't referring to the character itself. I was talking about how her behavior (possibly) reflects on the writers and how we, the players, can interpret that.

    Maybe that's where you misunderstood me.
    Nifft said:

    What I hear you saying is that Shar-Teel is NOT offensive because OTHER characters in UNRELATED WORKS secretly want male affection? And that makes no sense.

    No it doesn't make sense, but it's also not what I'm saying.

    Let me try to explain it better:

    1) The little we know about Shar-Teel paints her as a well-known stereotype: the man-hating, burly, masculine woman.

    2) In other works of fiction, that attitude is usually explained by the stuff I pointed out (secret longing for affection, broken heart, daddy issues, and so on). Such characters propagate sexism because it all boils down to the simplistic notion that all women really need is men's affection and/or guidance.

    3) IF (again: IF) that's the case with Shar-Teel (and we can't know for sure, because we don't know the writers' intent), then I don't see how she could be disparaging to any male players.

    So you see, I'm not saying that "Game of Thrones has that big blonde lady who acts like a man and is sort of in love with Lady Stark, therefore Shar-Teel is part of men's agenda to keep oppressing women." I am just speculating.

    Now, I understand that I am the one who took the discussion beyond the context of the game world. You are not sexist yourself, you are not on a vendetta against Shar-Teel and you made very clear that these traits are meant for EVIL characters. I get all that.

    But I already made my arguments as to why turning sexism into advantages for NPCs bothers me. I already wrote too much and just wanted to clarify my earlier post.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Shar-Teel definitely says sexist things - and I can't deny that I like it about her character. When she ponders how the "stench of a man makes her sick to the stomach", she says it with the same nonchalance someone would say "Sometimes, I eat Nutella with a spoon and yum, that's a fine breakfast". However, I can see why it is controversial to turn her sexism into an advantage. Maybe it would be a compromise to give her a bonus vs. humanoid male enemies, but a slight disadvantage to reflect hestitation when attacking females. None of the following is confirmed to be her scripted behavior and could just be a bug, but I sense a pattern:

    Shar-Teel going berzerk if you kill the Umberlee priestess in Baldur's Gate dock district.
    Shar-Teel going berzerk on Dorn if you accuse a female party member of talking behind his back.

    That's two things that would be in character for her, even if they are bugs. First case, she'd freak out about having to attack a female person she never met. Second case, she'd freak out about Dorn attacking a female she may not get along with (i.e. a good aligned NPC). So it's not personal, it's simply her principle and would translate as either a slight THAC0 nerf or strength nerf - she'd hestitate or attack with less force because she doesn't *really* want to kill a female.

    In Eldoth' case, it's more difficult because he's more a sleazebag and less openly aggressive. An attack bonus would suit Korgan and his more violent personality better. Eldoth is someone who angers women, for example Shar-Teel, without making the first strike. I don't know how this would work with the game mechanics, but it would suit him better if he would draw more "aggro" from female enemies as a disadvantage, maybe in trade for a slight stat fix (giving him better dex since he's advertised as archer and doesn't have the stats for it - it would make sense for him to prefer ranged weapons to keep all the angered women at a distance).
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