[BUG] Dragon Disciple

SpaceInvader

Current behaviour:
Breath Weapon doesn't bypass magic resistance.

Expected behaviour:
Like Fire Salamander's Breathe Fireball and red dragon's one, it should bypass magic resistance.

Also, as @Madhax pointed out 1 week ago, the area effect of the breath isn't cone shaped.
Right now it is linear, like an Agannazar's Scorcher.

Jalily

This has been reported already.

Gallowglass

I reckon bypassing magic resistance might make the breath weapon excessively powerful, especially when we get to BG2 where some enemies are tough (and are meant to be tough) precisely because they have high magic resistance, which would be negated by what you propose. If it's truly intended that the breath weapon should bypass magic resistance, then I suggest that the Dragon Disciple kit needs some significant additional disadvantages to maintain the challenge of the game.

SpaceInvader

@Gallowglass please, make an example of those tough enemies with high MR and no fire resistance that would become a walk in the park due to a 1/day use of Breath Weapon

Gallowglass

Well, loads of drow, for example. In Ust'Natha, it's perfectly possible to depopulate the whole city, but you've got to work at it. If the Breath Weapon bypassed MR, then you could probably start at one end of the city and have them all chase you back to the entrance, and then turn round and massacre the whole lot in one breath on the entrance platform, which would make it rather trivial. (I'm assuming that they fix it to be a cone as described.)

SpaceInvader

@Gallowglass that would make sense only if you're playing solo. And even then, why would you waste so much time tanking and gathering the whole city to use an ability, when you could burn them all with few Sunfire?

Gallowglass

You might not have Sunfire, or more realistically you might not have enough uses of it to do it that way. And the breath weapon technique I suggested should also be applicable with a party, not just solo. And then when we get to ToB, lots of enemies have MR. Off the top of my head I don't recall which ones do or don't also have fire resistance, but I'm sure we'd find that several key fights suddenly became easier-than-intended if the Breath Weapon could bypass MR.

I'm all in favour of the invention of new ways to tackle the game, and evidently Overhaul has been working to offer such enhancements, but I'm very cautious about new ways which might take the challenge out of the game, so I hope Overhaul will also be cautious. Some balance between classes and playing-styles is important for replayability, it makes it more interesting to keep on trying different ways of playing when there's no one class or style which is too obviously superior to any other.

TJ_Hooker

Well you'll only ever have 1 use of your breath weapon per day, so I can't see it making that much of a difference. Also, by the time you get to ToB, you can have have Dragon's Breath HLA (which also bypasses magic resistance), which, even if enemies make their save, does more damage than the Dragon Disciples breath attack.

SpaceInvader

@Gallowglass Ok, I understand what you mean. But I do not agree on many points:

- Sorcerers without Sunfire... seriously?

- Not enough uses? Well, 5 + 1 from Ring of Wizardry is more than enough.

- Even if there should be classes "obviously superior to any other" (and there are), what would the problem be? Play other classes, if you find them OP.
There are people that play chars with 25 in all stats, 1k HP, -24 AC and -20 thac0, but that doesn't influence my game. You are free to use whatever fits your personal taste.

- Just to repeat it once more: Sorcerer > Dragon Disciple in terms of raw power.
If people like the DD so much it's just for RP reasons.

Gallowglass

SpaceInvader said:

Sorcerers without Sunfire... seriously?

Well I'd pick Sunfire for a Sorcerer, and obviously you would too, but other players often do things which might seem weird to you and I! Perhaps for particular RP reasons, perhaps by error, and so on.

SpaceInvader said:

Not enough uses? Well, 5 + 1 from Ring of Wizardry is more than enough.

You may have used a few earlier in the day, or you may meet the enemies very scattered, or whatever. So you have to plan the battle, rest up, position yourself. Not too hard, but still requires some use of brain. A Sorcerer is already a very powerful class which makes the Underdark (in particular) a noticeably easier Chapter than if you don't have a Sorcerer, so I'm not in favour of making it easier still.

SpaceInvader said:

Even if there should be classes "obviously superior to any other" (and there are), what would the problem be? Play other classes, if you find them OP.

That's a very important point. Yes, I can (and generally do) play other classes, and so can you ... but a lot of players will never bother to do so, if they discover a class and style which makes the whole game too darn easy. Instead they'll just say "BG is too easy to bother replaying" and never come back. And you and I need those other guys to keep on playing, to keep on supporting the game and recommending it, because it's having a large number of continuing players which keeps the game going commercially with developer support, which keeps modders working on interesting variations, and so on.

How many other games have ever come back after 15 years, with a professionally-developed Enhanced Edition? Darn few! It's only because lots of people still love the game (and still play it) that Overhaul have been able to risk investing in it. If almost everyone had abandoned BG because they no longer found it challenging enough to bother, then hardly anyone would even remember this game now. Introducing anything too OP kills the future of the franchise.

SpaceInvader said:

There are people that play chars with 25 in all stats, 1k HP, -24 AC and -20 thac0, but that doesn't influence my game. You are free to use whatever fits your personal taste.

Sure there are people who cheat to get 25 in all stats ... but how many of those people will play twice? They're not likely to be part of the continuing community of support for BG, the long-term fanbase which keeps the game attractive to developers and modders and so on.

SpaceInvader said:

Just to repeat it once more: Sorcerer > Dragon Disciple in terms of raw power. If people like the DD so much it's just for RP reasons.

I hope you're right, since I reckon Sorcerer is already running very close to being a game-spoiler and anything more powerful would definitely be a bad decision. That's the fundamental reason why I want to be cautious about the power of the Breath Weapon. However, I don't think there's yet enough data to reach a firm conclusion about the effectiveness of the DD, I think we need to test it out in BG2ee as well.

TJ_Hooker

Gallowglass said:

How many other games have ever come back after 15 years, with a professionally-developed Enhanced Edition? Darn few! It's only because lots of people still love the game (and still play it) that Overhaul have been able to risk investing in it. If almost everyone had abandoned BG because they no longer found it challenging enough to bother, then hardly anyone would even remember this game now. Introducing anything too OP kills the future of the franchise.

I don't think the level of difficulty is the reason people keep coming back to BG, or at least not the main one. I routinely see people on these forums go on about how easy BG is, and how balance is almost non-existant, people who, by the fact that they're on these forums to begin with, are probably long time BG fans, and play it to this day.

Gallowglass

BG has become relatively easy for you and I, @TJ_Hooker, and obviously for many other contributors in this forum, because we're experienced players who have done it all before. We're still finding enough in the gameplay to remain interested, but we're obviously devoted fans.

However, I don't think contributors here are a remotely representative sample of the mass market. How does someone get from newbie to experienced player and devoted fan? By continuing to find enough interest to keep on playing, by never having interest killed off by the whole exercise becoming too trivial. If it becomes easy because you're an experienced player who knows what he's doing then that's a reward for skilful play which brings its own kind of satisfaction, but if it turns out to be easy while you're still pretty much a newbie then there's much less motive to keep playing.

DarKelP

Sorcerer:

- Sunfire 6/day 15d6. Bypass magic resistance
- Dragon's Breath 6/day 20d10. Bypass magic resistance

Dragon Disciple

- Sunfire 5/day
- Dragon's Breath 5/day
- Breath Weapon 1/day 8d8.

@Gallowglass: Oh, Yes! If Breath weapon bypasses magic resistance, dragon disciple would be absolutely overpowered...

Please, Don't make me laugh. Sorcerers are much better than dragon disciples.

Breath Weapon should bypass magic resistance and then dragon disciple would be "a little" more interesting but it is worse than sorcerers anyway.

Gallowglass

Deliberately omitting the rest of the advantages and disadvantages, and deliberately overlooking the difference between an ability available throughout and a spell available only at epic levels, is clearly an attempt to create a deliberately distorted comparison and derail a level-headed discussion between grown-ups. You're obviously a troll.

Madhax

Yeah, comparing Dragon's Breath to other spells is pointless. You get it at a very early level, it has a unique area of effect (once it's working properly), and I believe you can use it while silenced.

That said, I see no reason for it to not bypass magic resistance. A dragon's breath is natural fire, not magical fire, right? According to the rules that I just now googled (I'm no PnP player), the most you can get versus dragon breath is a reflex save. And I doubt it would break the game balance-wise.

TJ_Hooker

Gallowglass said:

Deliberately omitting the rest of the advantages and disadvantages, and deliberately overlooking the difference between an ability available throughout and a spell available only at epic levels, is clearly an attempt to create a deliberately distorted comparison and derail a level-headed discussion between grown-ups. You're obviously a troll.

Well you're the one who specifically mentioned its use in SoA and ToB, so that's probably why he was talking about Sunfire and Dragon's Breath. And you were specifically talking about how the DD's breath weapon, not the kit as a whole. He may have been a bit tactless, but overall I don't think he was wrong, at least concerning the breath weapon part.

SpaceInvader

@GallowGlass Ok, but the problem of the advantages compared to the fact of having 1 spell less /day has been widely discussed in other threads. I would dare to say EVERY other DD thread

DarKelP

@GallowGlass

I think +1 spell per level per day is much better than the "advantages" of playing a DD, but this thread is about Breath Weapon.

Sorry if my comment upset you, but I think trolling is when you say:

"I'm sure we'd find that several key (ToB) fights suddenly became easier-than-intended if the Breath Weapon could bypass MR"

Of course, 1/day 8d8 (level 18) and the game becomes easier, when sorcerers have Dragon's Breath 20d10.

Who is the troll? If you want to compare at low levels:

Lv10 Sorcerer:
- Sunfire 3/day 10d6.

Lv10 Dragon Disciple
- Sunfire 2/day
- Breath Weapon 1/day 5d8.