THAC0 and Touch-spells (Dragon Disciple, Question)

Cactus

DD has better AC and higher HP than a normal sorcerer, so I thought maybe to make a more melee-style elven sorcerer build out of it... With STR 19 (18+tome) and DEX 20 (19+tome), is it actually possible to hit (and keep hitting) enemies with touch-spells? I plan on export into BG2:EE, I like CHARNAME to continue all way through. I have little to none experience with touch-spells, as I always keep my mage/sorcerer at a distance. Are any of the touch-spells even worth it?

Fardragon

In BG2 you can learn Tensers Transformation which will help. Some of the Touch Spells have thac0 bonuses, and Vampiric Touch doesn't need a hit roll at all.

Lord_Tansheron

Afaik DEX has no influence on melee THAC0. STR of course does. Still, your THAC0 as a Sorcerer is going to be pretty pathetic. The actual chance to hit depends on your enemy's AC, but it won't be a very good one either way.

Generally touch-type spells are not very good. Their damage is not even worth it, compared to "normal" spells that don't require a touch. Just stick to those!

Of course, there's some special scenarios. While under the effect of Time Stop, all hit-rolls are made automatically; that means that a cleric/mage can use Harm in conjunction with Time Stop to basically two-shot most enemies...

Cactus

All are useless, eh? So much for this idea... Well, could still go for Burning Hands + Breath Weapon, then... I know AC is just for ranged, however I figured a good basic AC was needed if throwing af Dragon Disciple close to the enemy.

Lemernis

Ghoul Touch and Vampiric Touch are both decent spells, actually. And early on Color Spray can be kind of fun (only works on enemies levels 1-3).

Many years ago I tried a BGT run once with a pure class mage who used touch spells and meleed also with a quarterstaff, and it was a different kind of challenge. For me it wasn't ultimately as satisfying as playing a mage in the backrow with the usual arsenal of spells, though.

A Fighter/Mage or Blade works better for a character that likes to use touch spells. They're hardier. But even with spellcasters that are tougher on the front line, I find that I end up preferring to cast spells that are more effective than the touch spells.

Cactus

@Lemernis - Since I go for Dragon Disciple, all chosen spells should be usefull both early on and later. The more melee style was because DD get both AC bonus and more HP than sorcerer/mage, so in a way I think of it as a bit like a fighter/mage that cast spells like a sorcerer, but with less THAC0 and weapon skills...

Fardragon

The touch spells are not as useless as some people think. They aren't so good for a mage, without the hp or AC to stand at the front, or for a Bard or F/MU who has access to a range of good weapons. But for a DD they are ideal.

SpaceInvader

Cactus said:

The more melee style was because DD get both AC bonus and more HP than sorcerer/mage, so in a way I think of it as a bit like a fighter/mage that cast spells like a sorcerer, but with less THAC0 and weapon skills...

Unfortunately it is not and never will be a good malee class, unless they change its advantages.
PS. Burning Hands is not a touch-spell.

Lemernis said:

Ghoul Touch and Vampiric Touch are both decent spells, actually. And early on Color Spray can be kind of fun (only works on enemies levels 1-3).

Vampiric Touch and Color Spray are not touch-spells. Plus, they are a really bad choice for a Sorcerer.

Fardragon said:

The touch spells are not as useless as some people think. They aren't so good for a mage, without the hp or AC to stand at the front, or for a Bard or F/MU who has access to a range of good weapons. But for a DD they are ideal.

I'm sorry to contradict you, but all touch-spells are useless for a Sorcerer/DD.
They are in general, and even more for a class that has such a limited spell repertoire.

Wizard touch-spells are just Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp and Ghoul Touch.

Wanderon

I've found that the term useless is pretty much worthless as a definition of how something works or doesn't work myself...

SpaceInvader

Wanderon said:

I've found that the term useless is pretty much worthless as a definition of how something works or doesn't work myself...

Infravision.

Darkersun

Installed Spell Revision and these Spells make more sense. And Infravision got removed

Lemernis

I use the term "touch spell" above loosely in that I'm referring to spells that you end up within range of a melee weapon in order to affect the target.

SpaceInvader

@Lemernis then the strongest spell of the game, Imprisonment, is a "touch spell".

Wait what...?

Lemernis

Point well taken.

Lord_Tansheron

Lemernis said:

I use the term "touch spell" above loosely in that I'm referring to spells that you end up within range of a melee weapon in order to affect the target.

You can't really do that, as "touch" spells really do, as the name implies, require you to actually TOUCH the enemy, i.e. make a successful hit. Anything else is... short range spells? Close range spells?

I think I'll go with "Friendzone Spell", since you're all close, but there's no actual touching involved.

Nifft

Lord_Tansheron said:

You can't really do that, as "touch" spells really do, as the name implies, require you to actually TOUCH the enemy, i.e. make a successful hit. Anything else is... short range spells? Close range spells?

I think I'll go with "Friendzone Spell", since you're all close, but there's no actual touching involved.

So by that definition, Vampiric Drain is a "Friendzone Spell"... yeah, I can see it.

Lemernis

Lol, I stand corrected. Lord.