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Avenger kit

DelvarianDelvarian Member Posts: 1,232
in Archive (General Discussion)
Lets talk about the Druid Avenger kit for a moment shall we. First off, why is it even called Avenger? The name makes no sense for the kit. (I admit the Joss Whedon flick was awesome though)
But I digress. Lets talk about them in game. For the first seven levels or so you will simply be a crappy version of a regular Druid. With both low starting stats in strength and the ability to only wear leather armor. However at level 7 you gain the ability to turn into a crappy animal, like a spider, that's right the same animal that even Imoen with her short sword can solo and easily defeat at this level of the game.
Sorry guys I'd play a wizard slayer over this kit any day of the week.
Thoughts?
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Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    It's called an Avenger because it's more offensive than the usual druid, sort of an aggressive protector of nature's rights against civilization.

    The additional shapeshift options are not "crappy" as you put it; they each come with their own set of advantages. Granted, they are not incredibly powerful or anything, but you're not a run-off-the-mill random spider either.

    The biggest draw however are the mage spells you gain. This adds a lot of offensive casting power to a class that usually has limitations in that respect. Nearly all of the spells can be at least somewhat useful, and add something to the druid repertoire that you wouldn't normally have access to.

    That being said, I agree that it's not the strongest class around. The -stat penalties are pretty harsh for the bonuses you get in return, and Avenger is often cited as one of the weaker kits in the game. Still not even close to as useless as Wizard Slayer though :P
  • DelvarianDelvarian Member Posts: 1,232
    edited March 2013
    I did forget about the bonus spells. They can potentially be useful. However I was more interested in the shape changing abilities of the class, however I found the ability to be fairly useless, none of the forms stood out from a melee standpoint. I felt far better suited for combat in human form with the use of spells, but it seemed to me that the whole point of this kit was the multiple forms, and they all felt lackluster to me.

    And I honestly don't think wizard slayer is that bad, it's as good as a regular fighter plus has a couple perks. Sure cant use some equipment, but I don't find that to be the huge drawback that others claim. Perhaps in BG2 it will matter more? I've never used the kit in the second game.
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    I also like avenger. Especially web + spider form is my favourite combo. Web is very powerful spell and it really shines among the rest of the druid lvl2 spells. However I don't play it as charname, I rather edit Faldorn to become one.
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    Pecca said:

    I also like avenger. Especially web + spider form is my favourite combo. Web is very powerful spell and it really shines among the rest of the druid lvl2 spells. However I don't play it as charname, I rather edit Faldorn to become one.

    I'm not big on editing characters, which is why I use Avenger as a PC. Not to mention all the bonus spells from high Wisdom.
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    Copastetic1985 said:

    Pecca said:

    I also like avenger. Especially web + spider form is my favourite combo. Web is very powerful spell and it really shines among the rest of the druid lvl2 spells. However I don't play it as charname, I rather edit Faldorn to become one.

    I'm not big on editing characters, which is why I use Avenger as a PC. Not to mention all the bonus spells from high Wisdom.
    When BG:EE came out I kitted practically every NPC, just because I was finally able to. Now I am much more careful about it, but I still think that Faldorn as an avenger fits greatly.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    IMO, in a game where you can re-roll as often as you like, and a kit that has no use for strength higher than 10, the stat penalties are pretty meaningless.
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    Fardragon said:

    IMO, in a game where you can re-roll as often as you like, and a kit that has no use for strength higher than 10, the stat penalties are pretty meaningless.

    Yep, which is why I think the same. You're a caster. Play your role.
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    Pecca said:

    I also like avenger. Especially web + spider form is my favourite combo. Web is very powerful spell and it really shines among the rest of the druid lvl2 spells. However I don't play it as charname, I rather edit Faldorn to become one.

    Other than two or three copies of Slow Poison, Web should fill the rest of the slots out. Unless you're a good Druid, and have two already from the dreams. Then pretty much just Web and, a copy or two of Resist Fire/Cold to put on your Tanks before sending them in for the kill. Then let your Mage nuke.

    With two Rings of Fire resistance ( one on each tank ) they have 90% fire resistance. More, if they have the Helm of Glory. "Oh noes! They took damagez and I can't get to them!" Heal Party.

    Avenger's great.
  • DjimmyDjimmy Member Posts: 749
    edited March 2013
    The best thing about the Avenger kit is the name. Shapeshifting skills except werewolf forms are jokes. Druids are handicapped in BG universe. No advantages over clerics. It's a shame indeed.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    It is a shame that shapeshifting isn't very good in general.

    The Avenger's Spider form does have a niche, though: 4 attacks per round, plus poison, plus immunity to Web means you have a situation in which you can use it.
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    edited March 2013
    Djimmy said:

    The best thing about the Avenger kit is the name. Shapeshifting skills except werewolf forms are jokes. Druids are handicapped in BG universe. No advantages over clerics. It's a shame indeed.

    They're better healers in BG1 than Clerics. An Avenger can provide Web for your Free Action frontline, a 'high level' Dispel Magic to debuff vanilia Mages, and can heal a party member, or the entire party with their lvl 5 spell. Throw in a Woodland Being, and she provides an extra party heal as well.

    Cleric for buffs + Avenger for utility and healing = awesome multiplayer backline.

    Also, if the Avenger needs to get to the frontline to heal, put one of the two Free Action rings on and do it. One of the frontliners should be using Spider's Bane anyways so the extra ring should be on you, or the Cleric so she/he can renew Prayer close enough to include the melee members.
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    edited March 2013
    Djimmy said:

    Druids are handicapped in BG universe. No advantages over clerics. It's a shame indeed.

    Werebears :)
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    Nifft said:

    It is a shame that shapeshifting isn't very good in general.

    The Avenger's Spider form does have a niche, though: 4 attacks per round, plus poison, plus immunity to Web means you have a situation in which you can use it.

    As far as I know Spider form doesn't have poison attack, wyvern form has it.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited March 2013
    Yes. Spider = free action, wyvern = poision, salamander = fire resistance. The salamander would be okay in melee if it wasn't stuck with a non-magical weapon (it's strong, so you can smash some locks with it too).

    The forms have their uses but aren't earth-shattering, but the Avenger spell selection is excellent.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    @Pecca - Huh, I remember using an Avenger in BG2, and I thought the spider form had poison, but maybe I'm remembering wrong.

    @Fardragon - Exactly, the big Avenger perk is the extra spells.
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    Nifft said:

    @Pecca - Huh, I remember using an Avenger in BG2, and I thought the spider form had poison, but maybe I'm remembering wrong.

    @Fardragon - Exactly, the big Avenger perk is the extra spells.

    Spider does have poison that stacks in BG2. Nerfed in BG:EE.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Copastetic1985 said:

    Spider does have poison that stacks in BG2. Nerfed in BG:EE.

    Ah that explains it. Thanks!

  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    edited March 2013
    Single class druids are never gonna be powerful, but the Avenger is the best of them. The stat and armour penalties are very minor disadvantages.
    - You only need 16 con anyway.
    - Str isn't exactly a useful stats for druids.
    - With leather armour your AC will only be 1 worse than a regular druid. Your best bet from mid game onwards (even for a regular druid) is not not bother with armour and use Bracers of Protection and a Ring/Amulet/Cloak of Protection for the best AC (and save bonuses).

    Those are some incredibly minor trades for the spells you get access to. I personally think Web is possibly the best spell in the game.
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    i completed a playthrough with an avenger druid, tonnes of fun. you get more chromatic orbs/webs/etc than any other caster (without equipment), cast at the higher level than any mage. a great mix of damaging offensive spells and standard druid spells. then by the end game:

    web+iron skins+haste+sword spider form is a useful way to navigate around a sticky map attacking mages and softer enemies while the tanks take on the big hitters
  • DelvarianDelvarian Member Posts: 1,232
    Not true that you will only be a little less off with leather armor than other Druids, the others can wear ankeg armor.
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    @delvarian avengers can wear ankeg
  • DelvarianDelvarian Member Posts: 1,232
    Are you sure, I could swear I couldn't. Am I thinking about another leather wearing class?
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    They could wear it in 2013 patch but they can't wear it since 2014 patch.
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    ahh didn't know that, i completed mine before the latest patch
  • JaggedJagged Member Posts: 105
    I never would have thought to make an Avenger but this thread has got me very interested. Thanks for all the great info.
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    @jagged i didn't even have to powergame and max all my stats out, i took my first natural roll that gave me wis17 and away i went and it was more than doable and lots of fun. think of the avenger as both your second mage and healer, mine went in with jahiera, khalid, kivan, neera and imoen
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Sword spider form hits as +5 and has a ton of attacks, even if the damage is a little on the low end (throw a str spell on them, however, and they can tear stuff up), and they're a reasonably solid offensive caster, especially if you're good at aiming lightning bolts.
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    If you are playing a caster/support class, you shouldn't need to worry about AC nearly as much as the others.

    I personally just use Leather+3 because it looks cool. Same with Leather+1 ( blackish unless it's changed ). Why? Because I stand in the back slingin', castin' and laughin'. Just put the Boots of Avoidance on and you'll be fine.

    If for some reason you feel you need to go have a conversation with your frontline during battle, there's Iron Skins and Bark Skin. Bark to lower AC, and Iron to nullify a few melee/arrows that get through Barks AC bonus.
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    edited March 2013
    ZanathKariashi said:

    Sword spider form hits as +5 and has a ton of attacks, even if the damage is a little on the low end (throw a str spell on them, however, and they can tear stuff up), and they're a reasonably solid offensive caster, especially if you're good at aiming lightning bolts.

    i suck with lightning bolts, i'm more of a danger to myself and my party than my enemies. i can almost hear khalid screaming "your angles!" shortly before "better part-crackle"
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