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Guide to polymorph self.

2

Comments

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,673
    AHF said:

    It makes logical sense that if a sword spider can't poison and the polymorph spell turns the PC into a sword spider that there wouldn't be a poison component to it as the whole idea is to mirror the sword spider's abilities. I never understood why a sword spider would have poison ability in the first place.

    Definitely puts a damper on the mage as melee weapon idea but the sword spider + web remains a deadly combo.

    Just want to make this clear, as i have mentioned it several times. The sword spiders in cloakwood and such deal alot more damage, than the one you turn into. Try attacking someone with your sword spider form, you're at the most hitting for 6 damage and most will be 2-3 damage. The one in cloakwood and at other places will easily go up to 8-10 a hit.

    I don't know if this was changed in BG:EE aswell, but without the poison your sword spider form is alot weaker than the ones you'll be facing as enemies.
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    It's nice to have this information around for the newer players however, as this is a BG:EE forum, isn't it a little moot?

    Lots of changes have been made with the game.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,673

    It's nice to have this information around for the newer players however, as this is a BG:EE forum, isn't it a little moot?

    Lots of changes have been made with the game.

    I don't find it moot, as most people here have already played the original and probably will again at some point. Also there are people like me who prefer to play the original and trilogy, and only visit this forum because it's alot more alive than other forums. And there is no BG:EE as of yet, and most of these tactics work just as great in BG2 as they do here.
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    SionIV said:

    AHF said:

    It makes logical sense that if a sword spider can't poison and the polymorph spell turns the PC into a sword spider that there wouldn't be a poison component to it as the whole idea is to mirror the sword spider's abilities. I never understood why a sword spider would have poison ability in the first place.

    Definitely puts a damper on the mage as melee weapon idea but the sword spider + web remains a deadly combo.

    Just want to make this clear, as i have mentioned it several times. The sword spiders in cloakwood and such deal alot more damage, than the one you turn into. Try attacking someone with your sword spider form, you're at the most hitting for 6 damage and most will be 2-3 damage. The one in cloakwood and at other places will easily go up to 8-10 a hit.

    I don't know if this was changed in BG:EE aswell, but without the poison your sword spider form is alot weaker than the ones you'll be facing as enemies.
    Matching the sword spider would make sense. When I tested, it did the same 4-7 damage as the BG2 base damage.

    18 additional points of poison damage per hit dwarfs the difference in base damage, though.

    8-11 damage = 1d4+7
    4-7 damge = 1d4+3
    22-25 damage = 1d4+3+18 poison
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,673
    AHF said:

    SionIV said:

    AHF said:

    It makes logical sense that if a sword spider can't poison and the polymorph spell turns the PC into a sword spider that there wouldn't be a poison component to it as the whole idea is to mirror the sword spider's abilities. I never understood why a sword spider would have poison ability in the first place.

    Definitely puts a damper on the mage as melee weapon idea but the sword spider + web remains a deadly combo.

    Just want to make this clear, as i have mentioned it several times. The sword spiders in cloakwood and such deal alot more damage, than the one you turn into. Try attacking someone with your sword spider form, you're at the most hitting for 6 damage and most will be 2-3 damage. The one in cloakwood and at other places will easily go up to 8-10 a hit.

    I don't know if this was changed in BG:EE aswell, but without the poison your sword spider form is alot weaker than the ones you'll be facing as enemies.
    Matching the sword spider would make sense. When I tested, it did the same 4-7 damage as the BG2 base damage.

    18 additional points of poison damage per hit dwarfs the difference in base damage, though.

    8-11 damage = 1d4+7
    4-7 damge = 1d4+3
    22-25 damage = 1d4+3+18 poison
    I agree that the poison might be a bit overkill, but without it there really is no reasy to use the sword spider form. Even if you did add the extra damage of the real sword spider, its not going to interrupt spell casting or stagger enemies. I much rather they would have changed it in BG:EE to a Wraith spider or something instead. But i guess the most simple and easy way was to just try to copy the normal one. The least they can do is put up the damage on it aswell.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 4,686
    Shocking grasp worked great to override then dispel claws. One hit then it's gone. (BGT tested)
  • JaceJace Member Posts: 193
    SionIV said:


    The flind is important in SCS, as it's the earliest you can get hold of a +3 weapon. It makes fighting certain golems and such much easier. Also it kills trolls without much problem. It has 2 better Thac0 than your own base Thac0. It's using a halberd + 1 (+3 enchant) with +1 fire damage. With strenght buff and other stuff it can easily deal out 15-17 damage a hit in SoA. It's not as useful in BG1.

    You misunderstand.

    In BG:EE, if you are a pure mage with 18 Base THAC0 and just a +2 weapon, you'll have 16 THAC0, but in Flind form (which replaces your weapon) you will have:

    18 Base + 1 Strength + 1 enchantment - 5 halberd nonproficiency = 21 THAC0.

    Because pure mages get penalized with -5 to hit if they are not proficient with their weapon.

    @smealgolheart Yes, if you have points in Halberd or Two-Handed proficiency, you get those bonuses when shapeshifted into Flind form. If you are a fighter/mage or bard that wields halberds, you may get some fun out of it. Hopefully, they will soon change so that the magical halberd does not require proficiency.

    syllog
  • JaceJace Member Posts: 193
    edited March 2013
    Might as well note that not all forms are auto-hasted in BG:EE. Only wolf, bear and flind forms receive haste upon shapeshifting. This further diminishes the sword spider's value (which can't even poison enemies) outside of web tactics because a bear will have 4 ApR, 18/00 Strength and 18 Constitution from the get go. That's the same ApR with more damage and better THAC0, as well as more HP. You will need a lot of buffs to make the spider equal to a bear in damage output at least.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Eudaemonium
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Might be something they changed to tune it down a bit. Like they nerfed offensive spin for the Blade.
    @SionIV - in what way has BGEE nerfed offensive spin? I'm currently playing a Blade in BGEE and it doesn't seem nerfed at all to me!
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    @SionIV

    I'm also curious as to what you meant by Blades being nerfed in EE as well. Do you mean the Free Action thing?

    Also, you said there is no BG:EE?

    As I said earlier, I'm all for having this information available, but would much prefer the correct information since this is EE, and not Tutu/Trilogy.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729

    @SionIV

    I'm also curious as to what you meant by Blades being nerfed in EE as well. Do you mean the Free Action thing?

    It was never intended that Blades could use Offensive Spin with Haste/Improved Haste, which may have been the case before (can't remember), nor Defensive Spin with the Free Action, those were bugs

  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376

    @SionIV

    I'm also curious as to what you meant by Blades being nerfed in EE as well. Do you mean the Free Action thing?

    It was never intended that Blades could use Offensive Spin with Haste/Improved Haste, which may have been the case before (can't remember), nor Defensive Spin with the Free Action, those were bugs

    Free action bugs aren't just limited to the Defensive Spin - they have cleaned up a number of those like the "if you put on the boots of speed after the free action ring they work" or the "if you haste yourself first and then put on the ring of free action the haste spell works but if you have the ring on already it doesn't" scenarios. I have no problem with that.
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    Just curious, but has anyone tried using a scroll of Haste on those with a RoFA/Spider's Bane? Haste bypassed that.

    I can't test for EE until later today.
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277

    @SionIV

    I'm also curious as to what you meant by Blades being nerfed in EE as well. Do you mean the Free Action thing?

    It was never intended that Blades could use Offensive Spin with Haste/Improved Haste, which may have been the case before (can't remember), nor Defensive Spin with the Free Action, those were bugs

    @Oxford_Guy

    Yeah, I knew that was a bug. But what's a bug to some, is legit to others. So some could argue it was a nerf.
    smeagolheart
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 4,686

    @SionIV

    I'm also curious as to what you meant by Blades being nerfed in EE as well. Do you mean the Free Action thing?

    It was never intended that Blades could use Offensive Spin with Haste/Improved Haste, which may have been the case before (can't remember), nor Defensive Spin with the Free Action, those were bugs

    @Oxford_Guy

    Yeah, I knew that was a bug. But what's a bug to some, is legit to others. So some could argue it was a nerf.
    Some would say that Blades sucks much worse now to the point of not being worth it.
  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563

    @SionIV

    I'm also curious as to what you meant by Blades being nerfed in EE as well. Do you mean the Free Action thing?

    It was never intended that Blades could use Offensive Spin with Haste/Improved Haste, which may have been the case before (can't remember), nor Defensive Spin with the Free Action, those were bugs

    Yeah, I knew that was a bug. But what's a bug to some, is legit to others. So some could argue it was a nerf.
    I know what you mean, but this isn't one of those cases. In the original BG2 kit description it states 'Offensive Spin cannot be used in conjunction with haste or improved haste' and in the game the extra attacks do not stack so there isn't really a case for it being 'legit'.

  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    @ryuken87

    In all honesty, I was referring to Defensive Spin instead of Offensive. I misread the post prior to my own.

    Damn hooked on phonics. Going to get my money back.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729

    @SionIV

    I'm also curious as to what you meant by Blades being nerfed in EE as well. Do you mean the Free Action thing?

    It was never intended that Blades could use Offensive Spin with Haste/Improved Haste, which may have been the case before (can't remember), nor Defensive Spin with the Free Action, those were bugs

    @Oxford_Guy

    Yeah, I knew that was a bug. But what's a bug to some, is legit to others. So some could argue it was a nerf.
    Some would say that Blades sucks much worse now to the point of not being worth it.
    Not me! Blades are loads of fun
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    In my previous all Bard party, I thought the Blade was pretty darn good myself with Dspin, Ghost Armor, MI, and Stoneskin. That AC is sexy. Add in Skald Song, one of Drizzt's Scimitars and the +2 one and it's gg.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729

    In my previous all Bard party, I thought the Blade was pretty darn good myself with Dspin, Ghost Armor, MI, and Stoneskin. That AC is sexy. Add in Skald Song, one of Drizzt's Scimitars and the +2 one and it's gg.

    Sounds similar to how I'm using my Blade in mu current game, though I don't use defensive spin that often.
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    edited March 2013
    I didn't either. Only when I really needed her to go into tank mode like during the Bandit Camp. Send her a little ahead buffed up, put Skald Song on, attack random Bandit#3, and just let her sit there while the other three apply Webs, Fireballs, Glitterdusts...whatever.

    My Bard team had 8-10 Con too.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729

    I didn't either. Only when I really needed her to go into tank mode like during the Bandit Camp. Send her a little ahead buffed up, put Skald Song on, attack random Bandit#3, and just let her sit there while the other three apply Webs, Fireballs, Glitterdusts...whatever.

    My Bard team had 8-10 Con too.

    Wouldn't your Bard get held too by Web? Or can you still use the Ring of Free Action to avoid that and still cast Defensive/Offensive spin?

    I do often launch fireballs etc. into the melee my Blade is in, though, as he has 40% resistance from the Ballista's Passport ring and +50% from Icing Death (he's CN so couldn't use Twinkle, which I sold, after pick-pocketing both of them), I sometimes cast Resist/Protection from Fire on him too, so that the fireballs can actually heal him! :-)
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    This is my Blade, though he's now Level 7 (the screen shot is from a week or two ago). These are his stats after applying the Con and Cha tomes. I use 2 Potions of Genius whenever I scribe scrolls, so the low-ish Int doesn't really matter - I wanted to ensure I had 18 Str and Dex, so can get to 19 in each by game end (and into BG2)... He's also wearing Algernon's Cloak. The rest of my party is Dorn, Viconia, Coran, Imoen (dualed to mage at level 5 Thief) and Neera (who I'm romancing). Sebastien handles pickpockets, Coran locks and stealth, Imoen traps.

    image
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277
    @Oxford_Guy

    I didn't hurl FBs at my Blade until I had the second RoF. But yes, she had a RoF for the better part of the game for those Web moments that didn't require DSpin.

    The way I did it at the Bandit Camp with SCS, sent her a little ahead of the other three, at the edge of the Fog of War, cast Web ( usually lay two down, with a third for later ) with my vanilla Bard, hit the closest Bandit with an arrow afterwards, then just leave her out in the opening safely outside of the Web/FB radius. Reapply Mirror Image as needed, as the Bandits that make the save in Web will auto attack her which, is futile due to MI, Ghost Armor, and DSpin when needed.

    Blades are tanks man.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,673
    edited March 2013
    1.) The flind doesn't get -5 Thac0 in Trilogy. It gets Base Thac0 18/Thac0 16. It's been a popular choise in SCS for the early acces to +3 weapon. The shapeshifted weapon overrides your own, and your own profficiensy does not matter until that weapon is dispelled. But i'll change the guide to put that in for BG:EE.

    2.) In the original game / BG TUTU / Trilogy. It does not say it can't be hasted, so it is indeed a nerf.

    BG Trilogy : This ability lasts for 24 seconds and grants the blade +2 bonus to hit and damage and an extra attack. All of the blade's attacks do maximum damage for the duration.

    The problem with the nerf in BG:EE is that haste gives you only 1 APR. But improved haste double your APR and then you get an extra one from Offensive spin aswell.

    So in BG:EE you would have at the most: 2 APR (Dual wielding) + 1 APR offensive spin + 1 APR Belm / Kundane. This would put you to 4 APR. In the original game it would be : 2 APR (Dual wielding + 1 APR offensive spin + 1 APR Belm / Kundane + 4 APR improved haste, that puts you to 8 APR.

    So in BG:EE you have to pick between having 3 APR and +2 damage /Thac0 and maximum damage, or 6 APR.

    As it doesn't say anything about not being able to be hasted in the original description (Inside the game) I really see this as nothing except a nerf. This also destroy the blade to the point that i wouldn't play one. Before a blade could easily be up there with a F/M and any other melee beast, but at the point in BG:EE you're not even going to get close to it. A blade is closer to swashbuckler now, and it doesn't get all the bonuses for levling up.

    [Edited] : For people going to say that it was too powerful before, did anyone complain about it? People complained about the sorceror, and Edwin, and the wild mage aaand... But no one ever complained about the Blade being to powerful. Most people didn't even know what a blade could do, so they put them all the blade kits as "Bad".

    With this nerf, you're going to end back singing once you get improved bard song. The only kit that could get away from the singing role was the blade, but once you reach ToB or get HLA you'll be saying to yourself "Hmm, why ain't i singing instead?"

    And yes, the blade is still a very viable tank. But so is a mage, sorceror, and any other kit the bard has. Even the pure bard kit is a great tank. So if you want some early game damage, then pick the blade. But once you get to ToB you're losing out on 6 APR against the other melee beasts if you keep spin up for the damage, or you're losing out on 4 APR against the others but lost the ability to have maximum damage.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Vanilla / Trilogy / TuTu -> 8 APR. +2 Thac0 and damage. Maximum damage on every hit.
    BG:EE With spin - 4 APR. +2 Thac0 and damage. Maximum damage on every hit.
    BG:EE With Improved haste - 6 APR.

    If that isn't a nerf, i don't know what is.

    Would you put that up against a F/M (The closest class to the blade in Vanilla)

    F/M - 10 APR, all the protection buffs that a blade can use AND more options from level 7-9 spells. And dual wielding with FoA +5 and Foebane +5 with 25 strength. Also 2-5 profficiensy against the blades 1.

    A dual classed 7 figther / xx mage will sweep the floor with a blade. A dual classed 13 fighter / xx mage will utterly destroy it.

    The maximum damage was the thing that ofset the -2 APR, and the reason they could be up there next to a F/M and at some point even being a better choise. Now you're losing out on 6 APR and along with that you can say goodbye as you see the F/M blitz down the road in his porche while you're trying to start your old ford.

    [Edited 2] : I wish they had left the Sword Spider alone. It was a hidden tactic that only a minor of the BG population would ever heard about, or try out themself. It required a very high amount of buffing, and was time consuming. From the other thread about F/T we saw that it wasn't as powerful, so what was really the problem with the spider?

    I can understand why they would remove the poison, as a sword spider didn't have it. But at some points you have to start looking at gameplay instead of making sense. I don't think the original team intended for you to use timestop and drain someones intelligence with the mindflayer form. Why can't we let some original thinking be left in the game, and there are so much more powerful combinations than Polymorph self.

    And last but not least with the removing of poison, it only opens up the door to dispel the sword spider weapon and use your own. This is much more of an 'exploit' than giving the sword spider that hidden poison ability.

    And some people have told me it's to put these forms on the same power level as all the other ones. When will a bear, wolf or ogre ever bring anything special other than STR and some APR? The reason the sword spider was good was because of the poison, the jelly for it's defensive stats and the flind for it's +1 fire damage and +3 enchanted weapon.

    [End of Rant] I'll be keeping myself to trilogy, as i prefer to play the game the way the developers created it, with all of it's little flaws and perks.
    Post edited by SionIV on
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,673
    Jace said:

    Might as well note that not all forms are auto-hasted in BG:EE. Only wolf, bear and flind forms receive haste upon shapeshifting. This further diminishes the sword spider's value (which can't even poison enemies) outside of web tactics because a bear will have 4 ApR, 18/00 Strength and 18 Constitution from the get go. That's the same ApR with more damage and better THAC0, as well as more HP. You will need a lot of buffs to make the spider equal to a bear in damage output at least.

    Edited the guide for some of the BG:EE information. Also want to point out that you can still haste yourself before polymorphing, so you lose out on a lvl 3 wizard spell, and the fact that your haste will run out a bit sooner. But it's still possible to get 5 APR with spider.
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    @SionIV seems we got a bit off topic ... perhaps a new topic is appropriate as it seems an issue worth noting.

    I wonder if it would even be worth using offensive spin once improved haste becomes available? I'd say the best solution would be to fix it with gear, stick a bard only elven chain with some OP effect to balance it?
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,673
    edited March 2013
    Wowo said:

    @SionIV seems we got a bit off topic ... perhaps a new topic is appropriate as it seems an issue worth noting.

    I wonder if it would even be worth using offensive spin once improved haste becomes available? I'd say the best solution would be to fix it with gear, stick a bard only elven chain with some OP effect to balance it?

    Early -> Mid game i would use offensive spin, but once i get high STR and improved haste i would get those +2 APR instead. And that's pretty sad that the blades best feature will get replaced. The only time i would use offensive spin instead, is if i'm using a two handed sword (Carsomyr with use any item) or a katana.

    The Maximum damage part from the spin is purely on the weapon.

    STR 25 using Celestial fury :

    +14 Damage (STR)
    +3 Damage (Celestial fury)
    1-10 damage (Katana)

    So you would be dealing 1-10 + 17 damage. Now spin would make that 10 + 17 damage.

    But if you use FoA it would be something like this :

    +14 Damage (STR)
    +6 Damage (FoA +5)
    +10 Damage (Elemental FoA+5)
    1-6 damage (Flail)

    As you can see here you'll be dealing 1-6 + 30 damage.

    Now the fact that FoA +5 is the best single handed weapon in the game, and i would use it over a katana even with offensive spin. Improved haste would always be the better choise.

    Improved haste FoA +5 = 6 APR with 1-6 + 30 damage.
    Offensive spin FoA +5 = 4 APR with 6 + 30 damage (+2 damage from spin)

    Is it worth sacrifising 2 APR for that?

    Now if you use carsomyr or something with 1-12 offensive spin truly starts to shine.

    Also remember you can use it on ranged weapon, so all your arrows that are 1-6 will always hit for 6 damag while under spin. Now +2 Thac0 and damage and you're better with the bow than both Kivan and Coran.

    But what this ends with, is that it's a big nerf to the blade once he gets to SoA mid game and forward.

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,157
    edited March 2013
    I liked this so much that I've made the guide available in the form of a downloadable document here. Great job, @SionIV!


    Oxford_Guy
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