Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Axis & Allies 1942 Online is now available in Early Access! Buy it on Steam. The FAQ is available.
New Premium Module: Tyrants of the Moonsea! Read More
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

The most epic Mage/Cleric

2»

Comments

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    Hadar said:

    1) I always play 18 CHA, charname is always the leader :P
    2) I know. In BG2 I will use Crom Faeyr
    3)

    DEX: if 19 I get bonus to distance weapon (useful when I will slingshot) and bonus to reaction. I would like to have it in BG1 (I know that DEX 20 gives nothing)

    CON: I know that regeneration in BG2 will be slow, but natural regeneration is quite epic :P And I will have Claw earlier than RoP+2 :> But I can leave it lower it I wont be lucky rolling :P

    CHA: I play always 18, cuz I like it this way. And there is for me no difference between 8 and 15 STR

    1.) You get +1 to Thac0 and reaction from having 19 dex.
    2.) At the point you get 20 constitution, you will have either ring of gaxx or high enough level that you get regeneration from DHUM. And as i mentioned before, 20 con is only helpful if you rest.
    3.) Strenght 7 gives you -1 to damage and Thac0. 8-15 is the same.

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,399
    While multi class is effective, I think high level mage spells are a lot more powerful than high lvl cleric ones. With a multi, it takes too long to reach lvl 9 spells. If you dual from a cleric, you can advance in mage levels easier. I remember dualing a cleric at lvl 14 to mage in SoA. Regaining mage levels is easier as you can dump people out of your party and copy scrolls to your mage book for xp. In the end, my char had a single lvl 7 cleric spell and used Greater Restoration for emergency healing.

    Dualling from lvl 11 is good too, you get lvl 6 cleric spell, and do not have to wait too long to reach 14 for a lousy lvl 7 cleric spell. You can go as low as lvl 9, you get Raise dead and Chaotic commands, but I prefer to have at least a single lvl six cleric spell. Why? To use time stop+harm combo. A cleric 11 dualled into mage can pull this off relatively easily, you time stop, cast harm, whack the enemy to reduce it to 1 hp, attack again for the kill. That feels sooo powerful. I've totally dominated Yaga Shura. 'Har har, I have %99 resistance to everything!' Timestop+harm='oh nooo, it does not help when I have 1 hp left!' A multi c/m can barely get lvl 9 mage spells near the end of ToB, in unmodded game. If you want to go dual, it means you will have to spend the entire BG1 and some early SoA as a single class cleric. If you want multi, go gnome. Only spell you'll miss is ABDHW and a multi class mage can't cast a lot of it, anyway, due to low mage lvls. You can cast a Finger of Death from cleric spells and cleric finger of death is much more powerful too! You get awesome saving throws, extra mage spells, a cute gnome avatar, and can romance Aerie in BG2.

  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 165
    @SionIV

    1) This is what I wanted to say. I want have 19 DEX in BG1, and I know that 20 DEX in BG2 doesn't give me nothing if I am not wearing sth with bonus to DEX

    2) I know that 20 CON isn't anything superb, so if I won't roll so much points I will spare sth here

    3) It is what I meant + that 6 and 7 STR are the same :P

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    I think it would be kinda hilarious if a Cleric/Illusionist lost access to all the healing and harming divine spells, since they're necromantic. XD

    Quartzlunar[Deleted User]
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    lunar said:

    While multi class is effective, I think high level mage spells are a lot more powerful than high lvl cleric ones. With a multi, it takes too long to reach lvl 9 spells. If you dual from a cleric, you can advance in mage levels easier. I remember dualing a cleric at lvl 14 to mage in SoA. Regaining mage levels is easier as you can dump people out of your party and copy scrolls to your mage book for xp. In the end, my char had a single lvl 7 cleric spell and used Greater Restoration for emergency healing.

    Dualling from lvl 11 is good too, you get lvl 6 cleric spell, and do not have to wait too long to reach 14 for a lousy lvl 7 cleric spell. You can go as low as lvl 9, you get Raise dead and Chaotic commands, but I prefer to have at least a single lvl six cleric spell. Why? To use time stop+harm combo. A cleric 11 dualled into mage can pull this off relatively easily, you time stop, cast harm, whack the enemy to reduce it to 1 hp, attack again for the kill. That feels sooo powerful. I've totally dominated Yaga Shura. 'Har har, I have %99 resistance to everything!' Timestop+harm='oh nooo, it does not help when I have 1 hp left!' A multi c/m can barely get lvl 9 mage spells near the end of ToB, in unmodded game. If you want to go dual, it means you will have to spend the entire BG1 and some early SoA as a single class cleric. If you want multi, go gnome. Only spell you'll miss is ABDHW and a multi class mage can't cast a lot of it, anyway, due to low mage lvls. You can cast a Finger of Death from cleric spells and cleric finger of death is much more powerful too! You get awesome saving throws, extra mage spells, a cute gnome avatar, and can romance Aerie in BG2.

    As your spell don't get better after level 20, you only gain some spell slots, there is no need at all to dual class. Multi class will always be the better choise. When you start reaching those lvl 14 as cleric your turn undead will be useful, and those levels up to 18 will kill vampires instantly along with skeleton warriors and other undeads.

    If you're going to use timestop, then it's silly to use harm. Timestop and shapeshift into a mindflayer if you want to kill people in a timestop quickly. There really is no reason to stop at level 6 just for harm. Not to mention there are so many spells that will instantly kill through timestop, so harm really is the last option i would go for (It is original though).

    Under the level cap you'll reach C25/M20. You will be able to cast 2 level 9 spells and everything else, levels above 20 is useless for anything except a couple of more spells. When it sais on skull trap and stuff like that "+damage per level" this will only go to level 20, after that it stops.

    So if you multi class you will get to turn almost all undead in the game, you will get the special cleric ring at level 25 and you will have all mage spells in the game.

    ABDHW is alone worth more than any gnome racial or otherwise will give you. So "You just lose ABDHW" is like saying "Well, you just lose the highest damage spell you have, that under a timestop can kill 5 dragons at once if you get several of them out there".

    These are all some nice ideas that are in this thread, but if you do anything else than going multi class half elf, you're not going to be as effective as you could once you get to ToB.

  • WanderonWanderon Member Posts: 1,407
    I think rating ABDHW over an extra spell every single level all game long may be debateable - but then I don't play TOB and for the most part I look to how the character plays all through the game vs how they play at the end -

    Is there really a use for killing 5 dragons at once in the timestop? LOL

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    Wanderon said:

    I think rating ABDHW over an extra spell every single level all game long may be debateable - but then I don't play TOB and for the most part I look to how the character plays all through the game vs how they play at the end -

    Is there really a use for killing 5 dragons at once in the timestop? LOL

    ABDHW is one of the only offensive spells you take on a sorceror if you're soloing. Most of your slots end up with protections to survive longer, and very few offensive spells.

    ABDHW does so much damage to everyone around you, and if you get improved alacrity + timestop from your wish spell. You will be able to cast 3-4 ABDHW with robes of vecna and trust me, nothing survives that. You can also do this by doing Improved alacrity and cast a timestop of your own.

    ABDHW is the best damage spell a mage/sorceror got. And it's up there next to timestop when it comes to the most powerful/overpowered ones.

    And you really don't need that many spell slots as a C/M and neither do you need the saving throws for being a midget.

    lunar
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,834

    I think it would be kinda hilarious if a Cleric/Illusionist lost access to all the healing and harming divine spells, since they're necromantic. XD

    Hah, yeah. On the other side of the same coin, in vanilla BG I enjoyed doing the Cleric 7 -> Necromancer 8 Dual-Class.

    RAM021
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,399
    Okay, I agree ABDHW is the most powerful area effect spell (Dragon breath seems better but fire damage is resisted by many) But I've used Aerie all the way to the end of ToB once and she was always rather low on mage levels and spells. My character and Imoen could do all the wonderful time stop+improved alacrity+unleash hell combos, while Aerie could not. She was still useful though, thanks to countless Aerial servants, greater restorations, storms of vengeance, cheap skeleton warriors, and a decent turn undead ability. Just not all around powerful nuke-it all-kill them all and let the gods sort them out type.

    What I mean is, I think a single or dual class mage will be able to employ high lvl spells like ABHW, time stop, alacrity etc. much easily than a multi, since multi will take too long to reach high mage levels. If you go multi, you are accepting the fact that you won't be able to cast many lvl 8-9 spells, but you will have versatility and usefulness. In Aerie's case, I don't think I let her cast wiltings often. (I am not sure if she ever learned the spell!) My mage and Imoen did all the horrid wilting enemies. I would gladly prefer to have Aerie as a gnome c/illusionist so she could get bonus spells (more stoneskin and breach!) saving throw bonuses (and maybe she wouldn't have died that many times) and only lose a single spell she seldom/if ever used. Also I think Aerie would find wilting a too cruel and horrible spell too, lol.

    Heh, I still like my time stop+harm combo. Every mage can nuke areas within timestop, but it takes either a very high lvl c/m multi or a spesific dual cleric/mage to pull it off. ^^

    SionIV
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    Either half-elf or gnome can be very successful but I will just add in that the saving throw bonuses are better than you think if you haven't played a lot of shorties before. I did a run through TOB with halfling Kensai and his saves were so good he could take on beholders with the rest of the group hiding (not the Imprisonment ability of Elder Orbs) without the Shield of Balduran or Cloak of Mirroring. I'd never seen that before with all the human, elf, half-elf, etc. characters I have done.

    I do hate losing ABHW when using Jan, though. It is a real pain for late game but the saves and extra spell slots would be what I was weighing against this.

    The other necromancy spells, the dex/con/wis stats, etc. aren't anything that move the needle except for role playing concerns.

    On the subject of the thread, I am not sure what could be more epic than a Gnome owning some of the most powerful beings in the Forgotten Realms.

    lunar
  • JaeldynJaeldyn Member Posts: 49
    edited March 2013
    Silly question but does being an illusionist prevents you from casting necromancy cleric spells ? (I vote for the gnome anyway, simply for the additional spell. They also tend to make good fighters/mages too if you want to give it a try)

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    lunar said:

    Okay, I agree ABDHW is the most powerful area effect spell (Dragon breath seems better but fire damage is resisted by many) But I've used Aerie all the way to the end of ToB once and she was always rather low on mage levels and spells. My character and Imoen could do all the wonderful time stop+improved alacrity+unleash hell combos, while Aerie could not. She was still useful though, thanks to countless Aerial servants, greater restorations, storms of vengeance, cheap skeleton warriors, and a decent turn undead ability. Just not all around powerful nuke-it all-kill them all and let the gods sort them out type.

    What I mean is, I think a single or dual class mage will be able to employ high lvl spells like ABHW, time stop, alacrity etc. much easily than a multi, since multi will take too long to reach high mage levels. If you go multi, you are accepting the fact that you won't be able to cast many lvl 8-9 spells, but you will have versatility and usefulness. In Aerie's case, I don't think I let her cast wiltings often. (I am not sure if she ever learned the spell!) My mage and Imoen did all the horrid wilting enemies. I would gladly prefer to have Aerie as a gnome c/illusionist so she could get bonus spells (more stoneskin and breach!) saving throw bonuses (and maybe she wouldn't have died that many times) and only lose a single spell she seldom/if ever used. Also I think Aerie would find wilting a too cruel and horrible spell too, lol.

    Heh, I still like my time stop+harm combo. Every mage can nuke areas within timestop, but it takes either a very high lvl c/m multi or a spesific dual cleric/mage to pull it off. ^^

    I agree with you that it's going to take longer for a C/M to be powerful in a party of 6. But the way he looks at things i took it for granted that he likes to get everything completed. And if you do everything possible, open all the locks, disarm all the traps and write all the scrolls into your spellbook you get alot of experience. Now doing all quests, clearing watchers keep and such is going to net you very much XP.

    By the time i got into Underdark with my duo team they had gathered 12 000 000 experience together. That's 2 000 000 experience a person by the underdark, and i had only done the two first levels in watchers keep. Now many of those quests are experience per character, so you can probably add another 500 000 eac. So that's 2 500 000 when you step a foot into underdark with a party of 6.

    The reason i'm writing what i am about the C/M is because he didn't say party size, and the C/M multiclass is the more powerful. If he ends up with a big party he probably shouldn't play one to begin with. If i had a party of 6 i wouldn't play a C/M. But then again i don't think he should dual class one either, he probably should go single class mage and take someone else as cleric (Viconia/Anomen).

    So the question he got to answer is what party size he is going to use.

    1-4 size party = M/C multiclass.
    5-6 size party = Wild mage / Sorceror or something like lvl 7 figher duall class to mage.

    lunar
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited March 2013
    AHF said:

    Either half-elf or gnome can be very successful but I will just add in that the saving throw bonuses are better than you think if you haven't played a lot of shorties before. I did a run through TOB with halfling Kensai and his saves were so good he could take on beholders with the rest of the group hiding (not the Imprisonment ability of Elder Orbs) without the Shield of Balduran or Cloak of Mirroring. I'd never seen that before with all the human, elf, half-elf, etc. characters I have done.

    I do hate losing ABHW when using Jan, though. It is a real pain for late game but the saves and extra spell slots would be what I was weighing against this.

    The other necromancy spells, the dex/con/wis stats, etc. aren't anything that move the needle except for role playing concerns.

    On the subject of the thread, I am not sure what could be more epic than a Gnome owning some of the most powerful beings in the Forgotten Realms.

    As i mentioned earlier, shortie saves are amazing for anyone EXCEPT a C/M as he got spells to make himself immune to every single status effect.

    And i agree with the gnome owning bhaalspawns and dragons alike ;)

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,399
    Obviously, party size, mods and quest completion are all important factors. Long term duals are rather boring and difficult to play, actually. I would not like to try a cleric 14 dual mage ever again, although the result was powerful enough for me.

    Still, a gnome c/i is very powerful IMHO. You lose some offense with wilting, but you get a lot of defense and utility, more mirror images/stoneskins/breach spells than a half-elf. Also, when and if you reach lvl 18 in mage, the gnome will have 2 lvl 9 spells, while half elf will take forever to get a second lvl 9 spell. An extra lvl 9 spell is sure powerful. And a gnome will have +4 or 5 to his save vs spells and wands when compared to a half-elf, right from the start, which is a tremendous help as well. A half-elf c/m is powerful, but a gnome c/i is no less powerful just because he loses wilting.

    WanderonRAM021
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    SionIV said:


    As i mentioned earlier, shortie saves are amazing for anyone EXCEPT a C/M as he got spells to make himself immune to every single status effect.

    I agree but would note that there is a real benefit in (a) being able to memorize non-protection spells in those slots and (b) not having to buff. The other key benefit (c) is that the short save bonuses are not dispellable. So using the beholder example I gave, a cleric would have his/her protections stripped away by the anti-magic ray of the beholder whereas the shorty can just continue to save. A mage might be able to get protection from this via spell immunity (although I haven't ever tried that against a beholder so I'm not sure how it works).

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,399
    In the vanilla, Spellshield protected from Anti magic rays of Beholders, but some considered it bug or cheesy. That it was not supposed to work like that.

    In any case, a shorty can tank a beholder with much more courage thanks to saving throws. Even when your character has save vs spells of 3, that's %10 chance per beholder ray to fail a save and end up getting held/petrified/disintegrated. And beholders launch rays so rapidly I would not send a character without a save vs spells of 0 or lower, which shorties can get with their save bonuses.

  • HadarHadar Member Posts: 165
    edited March 2013
    If you ask what is my style of playing? So I must check every hole, spare every coin, do every quest, discover whole the map, ask every possible question, kill every enemy. In BG1 playing big party I had achieved the experience cup hours before Saverok :P

    If I play a game it takes me 2-3 times longer than ordinary player needs. I've played BG2 a long time ago, and I don't remember if I had reached experience cup.

    My goal was to create a character with max INT, WIS and CHA score, who benefits from it. And I find that mage/cleric is best solution.

    lunar
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,235
    I'm actually on a playthrough of a cleric planning to dual in bg2. I went with a higher strength, so I can use large shields, which work with slings. I'm planning on dualling at cleric 11, that'll give me most of the good spells, without having to slog up to 14 to get 7th level spells. I took Priest of Talos, so at 10th level I get another lightning bolt and lightning shield. I'll probably run a smaller party for a little while in BG2 after dualling, but I don't think it'll be too terrible to hit level 12 mage. I'm looking forward to having improved invisibility, stoneskin and heal in a contingency.

    One benefit to dual classing, is I'll get a decent amount more hit points, since I'll get 11 levels of cleric first. It's about 50% more HP than a multiclass at level 9, so I'll be less squishy. Asides from level 7 spells, I don't feel a big enough draw to want more than 11 cleric levels, so I get to invest more in mage overall. The only high level cleric spell I think I ever wound up using was summon deva, which again doesn't seem worth the investment in levels just for that, although it is pretty sweet. I'd rather have more high level mage spells over the cleric ones anyways. I do plan on having Viconia around anyways, so I can rely on her for turn undead, and summon deva.

    I think this will feel more fun for me to play, since advancement won't feel too much like it's dragging on.

    lunar
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,264
    I agree with others that multi-class is the way to go. (Better HLA pool.)

    I suppose the gnome illusionist/cleric would probably be just very slightly (negligibly) more powerful than the half-elf. You're getting an extra mage spell slot in exchange for no access to Necromancy spells that won't actually be missed all that much. But that said, you'll have so many spells eventually anyway that it won't really matter anyway. The cap on Wis for a gnome won't be felt much, either.

    Really, you're not going to experience much of a difference whether you play a half-elf or a gnome. You'll have a huge assortment of spells to choose from with either one.

    RAM021
  • SeveronSeveron Member Posts: 214
    I hack mine a little and make him a Cleric/Wild Mage. Lots of fun!!

    RAM021
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    Severon said:

    I hack mine a little and make him a Cleric/Wild Mage. Lots of fun!!

    Just curious - can the dweomers tap into the cleric spells ala cleric spells in a contingency or sequencer?

  • PawnSlayerPawnSlayer Member Posts: 295
    Hadar said:

    1) I always play 18 CHA, charname is always the leader :P
    2) I know. In BG2 I will use Crom Faeyr
    3)

    DEX: if 19 I get bonus to distance weapon (useful when I will slingshot) and bonus to reaction. I would like to have it in BG1 (I know that DEX 20 gives nothing)

    CON: I know that regeneration in BG2 will be slow, but natural regeneration is quite epic :P And I will have Claw earlier than RoP+2 :> But I can leave it lower it I wont be lucky rolling :P

    CHA: I play always 18, cuz I like it this way. And there is for me no difference between 8 and 15 STR

    DO NOT USE CROM FAEYR. It is an absolute waste, and the most over-rated weapon in the series by far.

    Looking at the benefits of the weapon, you have that it sets strength to 25 and kills certain enemies instantly. Those are enemies you have no issue with whatsoever by the time you get it, and the second level spell Draw Upon Holy Might will also get your strength to 25 if you really need that (granted, I always give my mages good strength as well - Charisma is my dump stat because I can use the Ring of Human Influence to set Charisma to 18 whenever I shop).

    If you're not soloing, you can also better use the components of Crom Faeyr on other party members. The Gauntlets of Ogre Power are still useful, and the belt speaks for itself. If you really need a war hammer, the Hammer of Thunderbolts is still a +3 hammer in its own right, so still does the job well.

    As far as crushing damage goes, there are two superior weapons - the Flail of Ages, which even at +3 is one of the best weapons in SOA, and it goes to +5 in ToB - right at the start, if you do Watchers Keep level 2 in SOA which is where you find the 4th head. The other is the Defender of Easthaven, which is only +2 but gives +1 AC AND 20% slashing, piercing and blunt damage. Put it in your off-hand, and you've got yourself a damage-dealing shield.

    RAM021
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356

    DO NOT USE CROM FAEYR. It is an absolute waste, and the most over-rated weapon in the series by far.

    Dazzled by its STR boost, I agree that some players over-rate Crom Faeyr.

    Nevertheless, you exaggerate. Crom Faeyr is only occasionally the best choice of main-hand weapon, but I've found that it can quite often be very useful as an off-hand weapon for a dual-wielder. (Of course you lose the APR-benefit of off-handing Belm or Kundane, but extra APR is useless if you keep missing, so sometimes the extra THAC0 for 25 STR is what you need, to turn a string of misses into a string of hits.)

  • PawnSlayerPawnSlayer Member Posts: 295

    DO NOT USE CROM FAEYR. It is an absolute waste, and the most over-rated weapon in the series by far.

    Dazzled by its STR boost, I agree that some players over-rate Crom Faeyr.

    Nevertheless, you exaggerate. Crom Faeyr is only occasionally the best choice of main-hand weapon, but I've found that it can quite often be very useful as an off-hand weapon for a dual-wielder. (Of course you lose the APR-benefit of off-handing Belm or Kundane, but extra APR is useless if you keep missing, so sometimes the extra THAC0 for 25 STR is what you need, to turn a string of misses into a string of hits.)
    But you can get the extra strength with DUHM as well, so its only benefit is useless. You could do exactly the same thing with an ordinary Warhammer +3 and DUHM, while keeping the components of Crom Faeyr for other party members. Or even just sell them all to buy that Warhammer, or another, superior weapon.

  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    But @PawnSlayer, DUHM can be cast only on self. If the character in question isn't a Cleric or Bhaalspawn, no DUHM! In such cases, Crom Faeyr can be very useful. And in a tougher battle, it can be useful even for Clerics and Bhaalspawn if their DUHM gets dispelled.

    I do agree, though, that the components of Crom Faeyr are sometimes more useful separately. It depends upon the situation and what other equipment you have available. You pays your money and you makes your choice.

  • PawnSlayerPawnSlayer Member Posts: 295
    The most common usage of Crom Faeyr is either Charname or Anomen though (usually dual-wielding with the FOA, especially the latter). And in this particular case it's for a cleric, so would not be appropriate.

    I will accept that the 25 strength can be useful in other cases, especially Solo runs where there's no other party members and where the strength is needed for locks (second half in particular, since Charname obviously doesn't have DUHM then)

  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Then I think we've more-or-less agreed, @PawnSlayer.

Sign In or Register to comment.