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It may be a pipe dream but

Do you get to meet you patron denon/devil if you play a blackgaurd?
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  • secretmantrasecretmantra Member Posts: 259
    Yeah, the same way a Paladin gets to meet their patron deity ...
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122

    Yeah, the same way a Paladin gets to meet their patron deity ...

    To be fair, it is different for blackguard since they likely do sign some sort of contract, and indeed likely do come across some sort of manifestation of the demon that grants them their powers.
    It's not like they just decide to start worshipping lloth one day.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
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  • DelvarianDelvarian Member Posts: 1,232
    @Bhaaldog I'm not sure, but I've heard it has to do with werebears, aliens and dinosaur DNA.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
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  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    ajwz said:

    Yeah, the same way a Paladin gets to meet their patron deity ...

    To be fair, it is different for blackguard since they likely do sign some sort of contract, and indeed likely do come across some sort of manifestation of the demon that grants them their powers.
    It's not like they just decide to start worshipping lloth one day.
    It is perfectly reasonable that the 'Contract signing' could happen with a functionary or go-between.

    That is one of the things that has always bothered me about Blackguards. As a 1st level character, most Blackguard wanabes are nobodies. Why would any major demon or god give one iota of thought to someone as simple and low level. It isn't like a cleric or Paladin where the simple act of worship and devotion is enough, a Blackguard actually signs a contract. That means the being is physically manifest in some degree. It would be like an NFL talent scout signing a 10 year old from some random pick-up game of touch football.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
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  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122

    ajwz said:

    Yeah, the same way a Paladin gets to meet their patron deity ...

    To be fair, it is different for blackguard since they likely do sign some sort of contract, and indeed likely do come across some sort of manifestation of the demon that grants them their powers.
    It's not like they just decide to start worshipping lloth one day.
    It is perfectly reasonable that the 'Contract signing' could happen with a functionary or go-between.

    That is one of the things that has always bothered me about Blackguards. As a 1st level character, most Blackguard wanabes are nobodies. Why would any major demon or god give one iota of thought to someone as simple and low level. It isn't like a cleric or Paladin where the simple act of worship and devotion is enough, a Blackguard actually signs a contract. That means the being is physically manifest in some degree. It would be like an NFL talent scout signing a 10 year old from some random pick-up game of touch football.

    But you can imagine some skinny little poor kid on the streets of baldur's gate getting bullied by other kids and resenting his life situation learning of some ritual to bind yourself to a dark god in exchange for power.
    To me, that's what a level 1 blackguard looks like.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    I've always been pro-NPC-only kits/classes/abilities/etc. It's one of the things I loved about Dragon Age 2: Every character had their unique specialisation.
  • TyranusTyranus Member Posts: 268
    @Bhaaldog 's not a troll. He's just... prevelant, haha.

    Unless you RP that you worship Cyric, no, you will not encounter your patron diety. If you DO worship Cyric, however, you get a nice face-to-face in TOB with him.

    My PC Paladins have always worshiped Kelemvor ever since I first read the Avatar Trilogy. Playing through NWN2OC as my regular ol' Paladin was cool and all, but when I got to meet Kelemvor in NWN2MOTB it blew my freaking mind! Especially because I had (unknowingly) role-played it perfectly so that I COULD justify turning against my God and fighting to destroy the Wall.

    That experience was only beaten when I played an evil Warlock and got the Ultimate Evil ending. Oh god, no other game can possibly be as epicly evil.
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122

    I've always been pro-NPC-only kits/classes/abilities/etc. It's one of the things I loved about Dragon Age 2: Every character had their unique specialisation.

    You praised dragon age 2.
    Get out. We don't like your type in here. :p
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I'm not going so far as to say that Blackguards should be NPC only. But I would think that some sort of rewrite of the 'Contract' portion of the class would seem to be in order.

    To me, I really liked what they did in the Dragonlance universe with Wizards. You could cast low level spells, but you weren't actually considered a Wizard proper until you took the test at 5th level. Before that you were merely an apprentice. That is actually the way I play my wizards on Persistent worlds in NWN2. Anyone asks, i am 'an apprentice' until 5th level. THEN I graduate to wizard.

    I think Blackguards could work that way as well. Levels 1-5, you are just a fighter (or whatever is most appropriate) and pretty much had to prove yourself worthy of a sit down with 'The boss'. it wasn't until that point that the contract was signed. Before that, maybe you got some abilities in the same way a Paladin does, but you weren't 'In' until you were at least formidable enough to have made a name for yourself. Or something like that.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    ajwz said:

    I've always been pro-NPC-only kits/classes/abilities/etc. It's one of the things I loved about Dragon Age 2: Every character had their unique specialisation.

    You praised dragon age 2.
    Get out. We don't like your type in here. :p
    I have praised it several times on these boards. I just do it to mess with you.

    That and I actually genuinely really like it.
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122


    That and I actually genuinely really like it.

    Now who's trolling the thread :p
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited April 2013
    ajwz said:


    But you can imagine some skinny little poor kid on the streets of baldur's gate getting bullied by other kids and resenting his life situation learning of some ritual to bind yourself to a dark god in exchange for power.
    To me, that's what a level 1 blackguard looks like.

    I can totally get that. But I don't think that some street urchin is ever going to be graced with the presence of said infernal being until he has made a name for himself, do you? Basically it is an 'Agreement in principal'. The above mentioned poor little kid agrees to follow said Demon free of charge until such time as s/he has made enough of a name for themselves to be worthy of actually being in the Demon's presence (without soiling their loin cloth). THEN the contract is signed. That's all I am saying.

    And if @Eudaemonium likes DA2, more power to him. I thought it was a hugely disappointing mess. But that is merely my opinion. He is entitled to his just as I am entitled to mine. It's all good.
  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    edited April 2013
    I admit that I was very disappointed with Dragon Age 2, but I'm about to say something even more controversial-I liked Dragon Age Origins as much as I enjoyed BG2. I preferred BG2 in a lot of ways, but in my opinion DA:O offered a lot of things that BG didn't.

    Oh god, I'm dead.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Oh, Gods. There goes another thread, hijacked by DA flame wars. And it seemed like such a nice thread. It's whole future ahead of it. Ah well.
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122

    ajwz said:


    But you can imagine some skinny little poor kid on the streets of baldur's gate getting bullied by other kids and resenting his life situation learning of some ritual to bind yourself to a dark god in exchange for power.
    To me, that's what a level 1 blackguard looks like.

    I can totally get that. But I don't think that some street urchin is ever going to be graces with the presence of said infernal being until he has made a name for himself, do you? Basically it is an 'Agreement in principal'. The above mentioned poor little kid agrees to follow said Demon free of charge until such time as s/he has made enough of a name for themselves to be worthy of actually being in the Demon's presence (without soiling their loin cloth). THEN the contract is signed. That's all I am saying.

    I guess I can see your point, certainly it's unlikely any deities would make contact.
    But I can see powerful demon lords communicating telepathically in order to gain an agent in the prime material plane. Or alternatively perhaps the ritual summons some kind of powerful demon like a balor who is in the service of the demon lord to oversee the contract?

    Obviously it's hardly likely that the demon lord is going to go through the trouble of manifesting personally. I'd be interested to hear some professional D&D writers' opinions on this.
  • bill_zagoudisbill_zagoudis Member Posts: 207
    edited April 2013
    no,infact there's not adequate reasoning to why the protagonist can be a blackguard.

    a blackguard makes an actual deal with a demon,devil or evil deity in order to gain divine power and the deal has 2 sides,you must do something to please the patron,that's why he granted you the power for,you literally become his champion. If the patron is chaotic evil he may demand mere bloodlust or destruction of his enemies,if the patron is lawful evil he may want you to take part in his schemes etc
  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    edited April 2013
    Heh, sorry. To be fair there wasn't really anywhere this thread could go-it's the kind of thing everyone wouldn't mind, but no-one cares about enough to passionately decry or defend.

    Edit: Although it could turn into an interesting discussion while I post something. >_>
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Tome said:

    I admit that I was very disappointed with Dragon Age 2, but I'm about to say something even more controversial-I liked Dragon Age Origins as much as I enjoyed BG2. I preferred BG2 in a lot of ways, but in my opinion DA:O offered a lot of things that BG didn't.

    Oh god, I'm dead.

    Don't worry. "Dragon age origins wasn't very good" is an opinion. "Dragon age 2 wasn't very good" is a fact :p
  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    @ajwz Tell that to my cousin. I can't have a decent RPG discussion with her without her bringing up my poor taste. :p
  • JalilyJalily Member Posts: 4,681
    Here's the biography when the PC is a Blackguard:
    While your foster father did his best to guide you toward virtue, you have always been fascinated by the power that can be attained through evil. Uninterested in spellbooks or knowledge of the divine, you would plead with the Watchers to teach you the deadly art of martial combat. Each teacher, increasingly uneasy about your growing darkness, eventually refused to teach you more. But you would simply move on to the next, casually casting your former tutors away. Your lust for power eventually led you to a forbidden tome deep within Candlekeep, a tome that put you into contact with an evil outsider. In exchange for dark power, you agreed for that outsider to become your patron. Now you seek nothing more than an excuse to leave Candlekeep and exercise your new abilities upon an unsuspecting world.
    I imagine the outsider is willing to make a contract with you because
    it can sense your Bhaalspawn nature.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018

    no,infact there's not adequate reasoning to why the protagonist can be a blackguard.

    a blackguard makes an actual deal with a demon,devil or evil deity in order to gain divine power and the deal has 2 sides,you must do something to please the patron,that's why he granted you the power for,you literally become his champion. If the patron is chaotic evil he may demand mere bloodlust or destruction of his enemies,if the patron is lawful evil he may want you to take part in his schemes etc

    And again, from this perspective No 1st level anywhere ever would be a Blackguard. Ok, maybe 1 or 2 really REALLY exceptional cases, but not enough for it to be a playable class. hence my suggestion above.

  • styggastygga Member Posts: 467
    I think a demon would be able to sense a bit of Bhaal in you, and thus jump at the chance to sign a contract with a level 1 paladin. Firkraag could sense it, why not a demon?
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Tyranus said:

    @Bhaaldog 's not a troll. He's just... prevelant, haha.

    Bhaaldog isn't a he. /smartass

    Anyway, I hope Dorn's patron will play a role in his BG2 story.

  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    I suspect that ol' Ur-Gothoz will have a role to play in some form or another. I mean, Dorn's roaring rampage of revenge is over. There aren't really any other character hooks for him besides his patron. Both Rasaad and Neera have obvious hooks for the sequel (Dark Moon Monk Master and Red Wizard Wild Magic experiments, respectively). Dorn not so much.
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Not 100% up on the lore behind blackguards, but doesn't the patron have to be either a demon or a demonic god, and not for example, a devil?
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