Query about the Red Wizards and the Zhentarim
Eudaemonium
Member Posts: 3,199
Friends and simians!
I am gearing up for one of my first hardcore RP runs of BG1, which will obviously be evil, because that's just how we roll in these parts. As part of it, I'm plotting out the basic relationships the characters in my party are likely to have with each other, and I figured I would ask the people here whoa re far more versed in D&D history and lore than I am.
Basically, what kind of organisational relationship do the Red Wizards and the Zhentarim have during the time of BG1? I doubt it'd very friendly, but how hostile are they? Have there been major conflicts between the organisations, or minor disputes over territory?
I'm asking, obviously, because I'm planning to have both Edwin and Xzar/Montaron in my endgame party, and I'm not sure what sort of general atmosphere they would have. I can understand X+M being reasonably okay with Edwin, seeing as they are there on a mission to uncover why the Zhents are being blamed for the Iron Crisis, and co-opting a Red Wizard (via Charname) to do their bidding would probably be fine for them. It isn't like they're helping Thayan interests in the region or anything. Edwin on the otehr hand, might be more wary of helping out Zhent agents, and let's be honest he's probably bright enough to figure out their institutional affiliations even before Sorcerous Sundries. However, more to the point, how would the Red Wizards react if they discovered Edwin was aiding the Zhents, however minimally? How deep is the excrement that he would find himself in? Are we talking a minor shoe inconvenience or a full-on dung-boarding?
But basically I'm looking for tips and pointers on how these characters would relate on a general level, without the massive personality clashes, from the more knowledgable among us.
I am gearing up for one of my first hardcore RP runs of BG1, which will obviously be evil, because that's just how we roll in these parts. As part of it, I'm plotting out the basic relationships the characters in my party are likely to have with each other, and I figured I would ask the people here whoa re far more versed in D&D history and lore than I am.
Basically, what kind of organisational relationship do the Red Wizards and the Zhentarim have during the time of BG1? I doubt it'd very friendly, but how hostile are they? Have there been major conflicts between the organisations, or minor disputes over territory?
I'm asking, obviously, because I'm planning to have both Edwin and Xzar/Montaron in my endgame party, and I'm not sure what sort of general atmosphere they would have. I can understand X+M being reasonably okay with Edwin, seeing as they are there on a mission to uncover why the Zhents are being blamed for the Iron Crisis, and co-opting a Red Wizard (via Charname) to do their bidding would probably be fine for them. It isn't like they're helping Thayan interests in the region or anything. Edwin on the otehr hand, might be more wary of helping out Zhent agents, and let's be honest he's probably bright enough to figure out their institutional affiliations even before Sorcerous Sundries. However, more to the point, how would the Red Wizards react if they discovered Edwin was aiding the Zhents, however minimally? How deep is the excrement that he would find himself in? Are we talking a minor shoe inconvenience or a full-on dung-boarding?
But basically I'm looking for tips and pointers on how these characters would relate on a general level, without the massive personality clashes, from the more knowledgable among us.
2
Comments
That said, these groups are pragmatic. The Red Wizards probably wouldn't care too much who Edwin is hanging around with, and if that includes Zhents... well, maybe he can get some decent intel on them.
On the surface, both will be familiar with eachother. Both qualify as major power groups in Faerun, and Thay further east too obviously. I believe thay helped send the tuigan to faerun to get rid of them, and the zhents sent orcs to deal with the horde. But i suspect an evil organization would understand that thay wasnt targeting them specifically, and thay allowedish the zhentish orcs to settle in thesk. So yeah, they arent enemies actively. But, they are often competing, so thay wouldnt be happy, but a good explanation and maybe a gift of some kind would salvage edwin.
Historically mind you, as in earlier than 3rd lod states they are traditionally enemies, but mentions that with the enclaves, they see thay as trading partners at least. Edwin might have been related to an enclave, or a plan for one, and ditching this to stalk the pc in bg1 to Amn would have aroused more ire, possibly explaining his bg2 bio.
But yeah, the Red Wizards are far too arrogant to worry much about anyone.
But what I do remember is they're competitors in some respects. To the extent that both are evil and both seek ever greater political control, ultimately.
IIRC the Red Wizards are more concerned with gaining power through magical means than running organized crime; the latter being more the wheelhouse of the Zhents (sort of like the Shadow Thieves). That said, I also recall the Thayans (the culture, not necessarily the Red Wizards organization) are heavy into the slave trade...
But as mentioned, their geographical regions don't really overlap. Not much anyway.
Zhents in general might want to keep an eye on any Thayan Red Wizard to see what his or her agenda might be in their own backyard. A Red Wizard on the Sword Coast is far from home. Anything could have him or her travel far and wide, but it would usually be a quest for some powerful magic, I think.
So while it might not be certain that thay is intent on an enclave in the area near baldurs gate, but it would explain why you run into several when you are galivanting about he sword coast, which seems weird imo.
Both organizations have strong ties to bane... along with kossuth, hes pretty key in thay, while hes the god of the zhentarim later. Of course, bane is still unhatched in xvim atm... but i think zhents realize thay is MUCH stronger, and thus wont try to cross them without good cause.
As far as Bane goes, the head of the Church of Bane in Zhentil Keep (Fzoul Chembryl) was in the Inner Circle of the Zhentarim, so the Zhents were Banites before the Time of Troubles also. The conflict with Thay there was actually a dogmatic one, since Fzoul had split with the more orthodox part of the church that was based in a different Moonsea city, and Thay supported the rival faction (and rival city) instead. I'm pretty sure that problem disappears by 3ed for a variety of reasons, though.
Oh, just imagine the moment before tob imports him... heh.
Xzar has vastly more mental capacity... i have oft wondered if a kobold with a pituitary problem was the dragon with feet like a rabbit! He did say it was true, and verily swore it true.
Edwin is so arrogant due to his necklace that he thinks hes better than everyone, and he barely enough tact via 10 cha to remember to mutter things to himself. More tact than Quayle at least. What a horses ass.
Back when the game came out, I was 20 and had no trans friends, and found it kinda funny. But being a lot older, wiser and having a very close friend who came out as trans... let's just say, I'm all for teasing Edwin for his arrogance in BG1, but in BG2, I'm super nice to him, not only in multiplayer with said friend.
/offtopic
Xzar's dragon with rabbit feet may be the result of a polymorph spell gone wrong, and judging by his own approach to gain infravision... who can be certain he didn't take a lizard and a rabbit apart and put them together the wrong way? There are some really big lizards in the realms (i.e. basilisks). Xzar isn't on a first name basis with reality; a big lizard may seem like a dragon to him. He may never have seen a real dragon (could have been unhealthy with nothing but a Larloch's Minor Drain and a dagger) and thinks they are much smaller.
Also "Xzar isn't on a first name basis with reality" is my new quote of the day.
I do wish that the NPC reactions to it were a bit less "now you are as nature intended" (Jaheira, obviously) and more "now you know how the other half lives" (Nalia) instead, though.
I also never really understood why this was seen appropriate punishment for Edwin. Shar-Teel and Eldoth are the sexists who consider the opposite sex as weaker, but Edwin doesn't say anything indicating sexism. He, like Quayle (and Eldoth, too) is all about looking down on stupid people and people who use swords rather than words. Switching his mind and Lilacor's would have been absolutely hilarious and made more sense; trap him in the thing he hates.
And yes, I assume trans people can identify with being trapped in the wrong body, but that is in no way reflected in the game. Pretty much every NPC who banters with Edwina makes fun of it. which is exactly what trans people encounter in real life all the time. I don't know how bad it is for trans men, but a born male dressing as a woman gets a shitload of ridicule and silly comments, and by association, her friends too. (For example, it automatically makes me "gay" to be friends with a trans woman, simply because I "tolerate" the presence of a "man in woman's clothes" instead of laughing about it.)
And finally - if you wanted an expensive sports car all your life... wouldn't you be mostly pissed if someone was given one as "punishment" for some reason? You probably wouldn't think too much about how they'd see it as punishment, you'd just see they got what you always wanted and can't have that easily.
The comments from NPCs to Edwina aren't about his/her personality - "now you are how nature intended" is a good example. I mean, what? That Jaheira thinks a female body fits the arrogant, megalomanic personality better? Where is Shar-Teel when you need her? I'm not sure which NPC says, paraphrased, "don't complain about the lack of parts you never used anyway" - that's pretty clearly about gender only, and pretty offensive to me, too. TMI; I identify as asexual, and just because I "never use parts anyway", it doesn't mean I should shut up if someone changes my body against my will. That's as silly as the people who tell me I should become a priest because "it's such a good fit". (Yeah, except I'm not religious at all.)
Roleplay is about immersion and identifying with the characters we play, and it's already weird for me that I can't tell my party to shut up about it. That's what I do in real life, and my charname would do the same if he could. Even if he wasn't offended - it's still his party angering a very powerful mage who could, if you think about it, polymorph them into carrion crawlers if s/he wanted. That's something charname would rather avoid. The two options I'd want - either shut up party or have Edwina fight back - aren't there. Maybe it bothers me because I'm not so much seeing "arrogant mage" and more "rightfully pissed friend" due to my rl friend, but still. In this age and day, it just feels weird and outdated, kinda like making fart jokes in a job interview. It used to be funny and outright hilarious when you and the interviewer were 12, but now it's simply nothing you would do or the interviewer would hire you for.
Also, @Eudaemonium: Sorry for killing your topic.
And Edwin only has nothing to do with that Enclave because he decides to go galavanting around the Coast with a bhaalspawn, some Zhents, a half-orc blackguard with an abyssal patron and an exiled drow nightcloak. No wonder they tried to hunt him down for insubordination, or whatever it is he's chillin' with them Shadow Tiefs for in Athkatla.
Also, @KidCarnival: Sweet Avatar.
Also, thanks, it's my latest attempt to become better at coloring. Here's the bigger version.
One of my amusing realisations the other day was that if I mod in a familiar for my main Charname (since only Charname can have a familiar), it would be an imp (since she's LE). An imp would probably despise Dorn since he's basically a tanar'ri agent. XD