New party composition

dstoltzfus

I'm thinking of doing a heavy RP run with a Thief/Mage dual (I've just always liked the class combo in theory) and I wanted to include an evil bard in my party composition, so I was thinking Eldoth (since I've never used him before) and Skie. I've never even gotten close to Skie, and my bad memory had me thinking she was a mage or something, but another thief? I also wanted Xzar and Monteron, since I've never finished the game with them.

So it is looking:

Thief/Mage DC Charname--(spellcaster/scout/backstab)
Xzar--------------------Mage (I am not dualing him because it doesn't fit his personality imo)
Monteron--------------- Frontliner (traps/locks)
Kagain------------------Tank
Eldoth------------------(spellcaster/wands/ranged)
Skie--------------------???

I guess, ideally, Skie could do traps and locks, and Monteron could do backstabs along with my charname (I really hate making Monteron do traps and locks, but for RP reasons, I'd like charname to have that role). What traps level do you need to get up to Baldur's Gate? Does anyone know what Skie's thieving stats are like at level 5 or 6?

Thinking about this yesterday sounded awesome. It looks like a train-wreck now.

the_spyder

You could take Shar-Teel instead of Kagain and you would have even more stealth. Make it an 'Evil - Stealth' run. That might be interesting. Your party sneaks in and decimates the enemy with surprise attacks. Just a thought.

And it is only a train wreck if you let it be. "If" things get tough, you can crank back on the rules level. But I bet you could make it work even at higher difficulty levels with some effort and some strategy.

dstoltzfus

@the_spyder I always play on core-rules no matter what. I'm going to do a minimum reload too (only on charname death). I like Kagain a lot; I find him the most enjoyable fighter tank in the game. My big issue is what to do about the thief skill distribution. If I can run on minimum traps with Monteron until I get Skie (assuming her stats aren't way out of whack when I get her, e.g. 100 pickpockets) then it might be ok.

KidCarnival

I got Skie for the first time in my current run - she's a pretty good thief, and she does have decent traps/locks. I got her as soon as I got access to the city, so I don't know how the skills are once she gets another level (I think she was level 5, and both skills were 55 +). Monty can handle traps and locks with some potions - there aren't that many traps you can't avoid or disarm with potions. Grab the ones from the wandering merchant on Durlag's map (I think there are 5 Potions of Perception), should take care of all traps.
If you keep the slot open for Skie, it's convenient to take Dorn so long, to get the Elven Chain for Eldoth. Skie had Short Bow, Dagger, Darts, which was fine for me, I had no-one with dagger prof for the werewolves anyway. For Eldoth, you should count in that he has Long Bow prof and can create poison arrows, but has 13 dex... So if you want him as archer, it's no dex gloves for Kagain.

the_spyder

Absolutely, whatever makes your game enjoyable. Merely offering suggestions.

With a minimum reload game, aren't you running a bit light on healing? I honestly don't know because I don't generally play with bards and I never do a minimum-reload game.

I like Kagain as well, but since I started playing with Shar-Teel, I just love her attitude. She is a total scream in my book. I just love all of that Man bashing that she does. But that is my personal preference. Everyone has their own and I totally respect that.

dstoltzfus

@KidCarnival Yes, I was going to take Dorn as a fill in. He's a fun character to be around (and a real powerhouse to boot). I won't go all the way to get the potions, but I believe High Hedge has some. They are extremely valuable in my opinion (just finishing an assassin run with Imoen dualed. I had to use 3 of them to rush through the catacombs as Imoen was just barely under to get her thieving skills back). I'm messing with thief points/level to see if this will work, and I think it might. I remember the Cloakwood Mines didn't need very high traps (maybe 40%?).

I was thinking Xzar with darts. Bards can't use longbows, only short bows, right? I didn't think about Eldoth's bad dex . Kagain has to have those gauntlets to tank.

@the_spyder I agree, Shar-Teel is awesome. I like her amazing backstabbing capabilities. I just always run out of room for her when making evil parties. I generally, only rest when everyone is almost dead or if they've been fatigued for a long time (or I absolutely need certain spells/ preparing for a journey, etc...I know a real slave driver). A cleric would help, but there is no room. I need at least one tank, and the rest are a must (unless this thought experiment doesn't work).

dstoltzfus

So far, I'm thinking charname skills in backstabbing (dual at 5), Monteron in 50 traps and locks (hopefully this will last until Skie; potions if necessary) and hopefully I can still make him an adequate backstabber with the rest. I just found out (via dudleyville) that Skie starts with 55% locks and 45% traps at level 6, so it's going to be tough going to get her ready for Durag's Tower (though, I'm not sure that is updated for EE). The dex gloves have to go to Kagain. I'm just going to have to deal with Eldoth being inaccurate and give him bracers of archery or something (and hope his poison arrows hit).

the_spyder

Have you considered perhaps picking up Edwin instead of Xzar? That would leave a space open for Viconia instead of Montaron. You certainly have a boatload of thieves as it stands and don't really need monty. Of course that would kind of ruin your whole "Finish with Xzar and Monty", but it would solve certain problems.

Or maybe if you could find room for Tiax? That's another thought. Not 100% sold on it, but who knows?

finally, you could definitely dual class Xzar. i know you can't see it fitting his personality, but consider this. he is a totally power mad necromancer. The obvious path on that is to have him turn to his god for more power. And considering the synergies between necromancy in particular and cleric abilities, I think it is a perfect role play.

Anyway, all in the spirit of suggestions. feel free to take or ignore any or all of my comments as you like. It's all about having fun with the game.

dstoltzfus

I'm definitely keeping Xzar and Monteron. Xzar's character is hilarious and I always eliminate him for Edwin (and Monteron for someone else), so I want to not do that this time. I'd love to have Tiax sometime, simply because he sounds hilarious. It would be very ideal for Xzar to be dualed to a cleric for this playthrough, but I can't keep Xzar from being something other than a mad wizard! I'm not sure what patron deity he would have. He seems too practical to care much about religion.

Monteron can be very powerful and useful, and his thieving skills now seem necessary if I'm focusing strictly on scouting/backstabbing until I get Skie.

Hmm...maybe I can think of a good RP reason to eliminate Skie for Tiax (maybe Monteron gets sick of her incessant whining ) ...though it might be harder to get his traps up to 80 (he'll have 50 contra 40 for Skie when I get him, plus gnome thieving bonus, but less dex and is multi-classed, so I dunno...it would give me a cleric though...albiet late).

Eudaemonium

Xzar's clerical skills are actually offshoots of his Necromancy (note: in BG, all healing spells are Necromantic in School). His patron deity is merely his own insane mind.

Or you could run with Velsharoon. Seems appropriate, and seeing as he apparently ascended to godhood in the same year as BG, you could maybe work out some RP with Xzar making contact with him, as a new follower. Or apparently the Zhents are Banites, or aligned with Bane in some way, but he's apparently dead. But then maybe a Necromancer would become the cleric of a dead god...

the_spyder

Yeah, I'd go with @Eudaemonium on this. Necromancy itself is as much clerical as it is wizardly and I can easily see a focused Necromancer going towards Clericdom in pursuit of that. And the more power hungry he is (and Xzar is VERY power hungry), the more likely that they would turn to a God. As for which God, I am pretty sure that Xzar is already a disciple of Cyric, though I could be wrong on that point. In any event, Velsharoon would be another excellent choice (thanks again @Eudaemonium). In any event, it is all in the eye of the beholder so if you can't see it or don't think it is right, don't do it. Pure and simple.

Tiax is hilarious. And if you enjoy Xzar's comments, Tiax is a must try at some point. I HIGHLY recommend him in any evil party if only for the hilarity of it all. I just wish you could get him in BG2.

Problem with your suggestion of dropping Skie for Tiax is, you don't get Skie until the same point that you can get Tiax. And if you dump Skie, I think that Eldoth leaves as well unless you cheat it.

dstoltzfus

@Eudaemonium Very good ideas. I was reading about the Zhentarim after looking at your earlier post. Xzar being a cleric would work, but Bane dies before BG's timeline I believe (unless he was revived before the start?). Regardless, it'd work out, as he's only dead for like 14 years or something (I believe, which mostly falls right before BG starts).

I was really warming up to the Tiax idea though. Maybe I could do both though...or just keep Xzar a pure mage, as he'd be the only one capable of level 5 spells (I'm not sure if a 5 thief dual can make it)?

dstoltzfus

@the_spyder Yeah, I mentioned some of the similar problems with thieving skills between the two. Dumping Skie could easily be RP'ed (in my opinion) with Monteron assassinating her. She is quite an annoying whiner (from what I gather) and it certainly doesn't take much for someone like Monty to kill someone he doesn't like.

Yes. I am very much liking the idea of Xzar pure mage (though, RP'ing his cleric dual is enticing too...but his pure mage spellcasting might be too valuable for this group if charname can't get level 5 spells) and dropping Skie for Tiax. More opinions are welcome .

Eudaemonium

You can actually do Thief 6/Mage 9 in BG1 (Thief 7/Mage 9 comes up 4000 short of the XP cap).

dstoltzfus

@Eudaemonium interesting. Tough choice then: 1 level 5 spell and some extra thieving skill points, or earlier recovery of skills (if I dualed at 5, I could still only get to level 9 mage, right?). With other thieves, scouting can be handled easily while I catch up...

Quartz

I was initially scared by the concept of no Divine caster, but I can say from experience that if you have Kagain taking *all* the hits, you can actually pull it off due to his inane Constitution. You'll be resting a fair bit but that's not a huge issue.

It's worth pointing out that both Kagain and Eldoth have severe Dexterity issues. Obviously the Gauntlets will be going to Kagain, but yeah.

dstoltzfus

@Quartz Yeah, Kagain's regen is amazing. Resting isn't even that necessary since travel times are usually instant heals. Yeah, Eldoth's dex is going to be a pain. Though even with 12 dex he has no ranged THAC0 penalty. I'll give him bracers of archery to help him, hopefully.

I think the party so far is as follows:

Charname thief (dual at 6 to mage).......(primary scout/backstab/spellcaster)
Xzar mage (dual at 6 to cleric)..............(spellcaster, late primary divine caster)
Monteron............................................(Frontliner, early traps/locks, late secondary scout)
Kagain.................................................(tank)
Eldoth.................................................(secondary spellcaster, pickpockets, ranged)
Tiax....................................................(secondary divine caster, late primary traps/locks)

I'll get Dorn until BG. Skie will be assassinated by Monteron after a little bit of being in the party.

KidCarnival

I refer to cleric Xzar as a Priest of Velsharoon - the whole "turn undead friendly" and summon skeletons just fits the theme.

With Eldoth and Kagain, the dex gauntlets are a problem. Bards can use all bows, Eldoth has Long Bow and Scimitar as profs when you get him. Obviously, he gets Dead Shot +2, and you can help him out a bit with the ranged weapon bracers. I often have him in my parties, along with Kagain, and it's an ok trade to give Kagain the ogre gloves for more damage, or weapon mastery for better THAC0 instead. An alternative is to switch Eldoth to front row (he has 15 con, 16 str) with scimitar, and use Monty for ranged with sling instead. Skie is an excellent archer - 18 dex, the Dryad shortbow +2, then Arrows of Biting, and you have a killing machine.
It's much easier to get Eldoth geared up for melee without dex gauntlets; you can feed him a con tome to get to 16 for an extra HP, then load him with buffs (Luck, Haste, Strength, Invisibility... leave crowd control to Xzar), Rashad's Talon (or Drizzt's scimitar), weapon mastery gauntlets, elven chain, ring of princes. Monty can sling away from the back more efficiently - if he does traps/locks, he doesn't need a backstab weapon anyway. Or have both melee, Xzar and Skie can handle ranged alone. (I played a run with Garrick as main archer and Eldoth as damage dealer... They aren't Coran and Dorn, but it worked fine.)