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Imoen and BG2. Plot Spoilers

SirBuliwyfSirBuliwyf Member Posts: 137
Is it too early to talk about BG2? Probably, but this is on my mind so I figured I'd get it out now.

It always bothered me, how it worked out with Imoen. Why did she suddenly become a mage? There was no suggestion of it happening in BG1. Losing Yoshimo, the only decent single class Theif in the game and gaining a stunted thief-now mage when I didn't want a mage, I already had one. I wanted my thief, coincidently what Imoen originally was and what her personality is suited to.

It was my suspicion that Imoen was made into a mage to facilitate the plot of her being taken to Spellhold. This I think can be tweaked a little while maintaining plot continuity.

Make her a single class thief. Her spellcasting that causes her to be arrested can be attributed to one of two things.

1. She uses a magical trinket, wand or scroll (yes I know it's a little low level for her to have the Thief ability to use any item but it's Imoen, the child of a God, a slight bending of the rules for her character alone wouldn't be inconceivable). This also adds something for the cause of rescuing her, she's no longer a renegade but rather someone wrongfully arrested and that injustice need to be reversed. Something the Lawful players will appreciate at least.

2. As a result of the tests done by Irenicus, her Bhaalspawn powers have started to awaken just like the PCs does and despite being a thief, she can cast one or two lvl 1 spells, Magic Missile or something. This also has the benefit of any magic related dialogue of hers not being made redundant.

End result, Imoen as she should be and the game not lacking a decent single class Thief character in the latter stages and in ToB. Also no stunted Mage in the latter stages too if you want to be a good sibling and take your sis with you.

It's a small change really, just change the last, the rest explains itself anyway.

Comments

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    I honestly think that they always intended for Imoen to dual-class to a mage given her high intelligence and crap strength. When she joins your party in BG1 she even comes with a wand.

    If Jan isn't good enough for you, I think the pure-thief problem should be resolved with a new NPC.
  • SirBuliwyfSirBuliwyf Member Posts: 137
    Jan is irritating, worse than Anomen and second only to Cernd for annoying wastes of space.

    A new Thief NPC would be interesting though I suspect if there were one, they'd be Evil. Nalia Is good, Imoen is Good. Yoshi and Jan both Neutral. It'd be fitting for there to be an Evil Assassin Thief NPC.
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    I'm trying to think of a more useless high-level character for SoA/ToB than a single-class thief.
  • SirBuliwyfSirBuliwyf Member Posts: 137
    You'd be able to dual class her at a time of your choosing if you didn't want a high level thief. At least this way you'd get a choice.
  • ArkinArkin Member Posts: 32
    edited July 2012
    I'm going to guess that Overhaul would be reluctant to change something so substantial, especially when that would be likely to upset those players who DID like to play Imoen as a mage.

    Also, I'd imagine that the lack of a solid thief will be remedied by the inclusion of additional NPCs.
  • ArkinArkin Member Posts: 32
    CamDawg said:

    I'm trying to think of a more useless high-level character for SoA/ToB than a single-class thief.

    I soloed the game from start to finish using a single-class thief. I had a blast. Just a thought.

  • SirBuliwyfSirBuliwyf Member Posts: 137
    Arkin said:

    I'm going to guess that Overhaul would be reluctant to change something so substantial, especially when that would be likely to upset those players who DID like to play Imoen as a mage.

    Also, I'd imagine that the lack of a solid thief will be remedied by the inclusion of additional NPCs.

    Well as I said, if you wanted it back the way it was, you could dual class her right away, no loss.
  • MooseChangerPatMooseChangerPat Member Posts: 148
    edited July 2012
    @SirBuliwyf Ah, but there would still be a loss in that Imoen as a duel class mage thief already has enough levels in mage that she can use her thief abilities again. She's lose those mage levels if she weren't a duel class, and then you'd have to earn all of them yourself. Don't get me wrong, I also rather support the idea of Imoen being just a thief, but it would be such a drastic change at this point, I don't think it would be possible for any company to feasibly do. Not to mention they probably have licencing limitations in that area, thanks to it still be extremely plot related no matter their tweaks.

    Since this is already an Imoen thread, I'd like to put in my 2 cents worth and say that they need to go in and put a few interactions with Imoen into SOA after rescuing her in. I know they originally planned on having her killed off and thus hadn't worked those out cause of time constraints, but now that we're going back and remaking it, that really should be done. Especially the conversation with Silvanas in the Copper Cornet, for some reason THAT always bothered me most, because Imoen is the hottest female NPC (In my personal opinion) and yet she is the ONLY female npc he won't hit on! Heck since you get her so late in the game, you could even have it that Imoen manages to make him run away, like if you play a female character and try to sleep with him. xD Like have Imoen play along, and then laugh when he runs out the door, knowing that he was all talk.
  • SirBuliwyfSirBuliwyf Member Posts: 137
    It's curious, I thought of it as a very very minor game mechanic change that really doesn't do much to change the plot or the character at all.

    Yes, if you chose to dual class her right away you'd have to play through Irenicus' dungeon with her as a low level mage but I don't think that'd be a big deal if you really wanted to dual class her. By the time you picked her up again she'd be ramped up to a higher level to match the PC's to the point where she could have the full benefit. All that is if you want to dual class her anyway and given the presence of Nalia in the game that just seems like a silly idea. Better to dual her to a fighter.
  • ODog1970ODog1970 Member Posts: 1
    I seem to remember that they dual classed her in BG2 due to the fact that most players went ahead and dual classed her to mage in BG1. They were just doing what the majority of the player base had done anyway. At least from the feedback they had gotten from the BG1 players.
  • Dragonfolk2000Dragonfolk2000 Member Posts: 388
    One thing is certain: we need a pure thief that doesn't get lost due to storyline. I also would like to see all new NPCs that are added to be of one of the kits. They introduced a crap ton of kits and yet they used very few of them.
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    What about a unique thief kit for just Imoen which is a combination between Thief and Mage? The disadvantage of course being "Imoen is not present in your party for half the game".
    Maybe it would be overpowered but it could suit Imoen well. And I am not talking that she becomes a bard, but rather a spellcasting thief kit, which can gain spells above page 6, maybe just one or two slots per each page?
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    I'd rather have a neutral or evil pure thief or fighter/thief added than have Imoen changed. She's been a thief->mage in my mind for a long time now, I've even started dual-classing her in BG1 myself after playing BG2.

    1 thing is certain though. No more thief-mage dual or multis for BG2. 3 is enough. @Dragonfolk2000 Agreed that some more of the diverse kits (monk/barb/sorc) should be introduced as NPCs time constraint permitting.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    I thinkt that just adding pure-thief NPC in BG2:EE will do. DO not touch Imoen (if you know what I mean...)!
  • SirBuliwyfSirBuliwyf Member Posts: 137
    I think adding an Evil pure thief would actually be a good idea (even from me) and would tie in well with the shadow thieves, but in addition to changing Imoen. :p
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    Or simply make Yoshimo redeemable I guess? I mean, he's an interesting character overall, and he's a kitted thief too.
    But my guess is that we'll get a new thief. It would make sense considering that one of the biggest NPC complain about BG2 was not having enough thieves (while having PLENTY of warriors, wizards and priests)
  • Syntia13Syntia13 Member Posts: 514



    1. She uses a magical trinket, wand or scroll (yes I know it's a little low level for her to have the Thief ability to use any item but it's Imoen, the child of a God, a slight bending of the rules for her character alone wouldn't be inconceivable). This also adds something for the cause of rescuing her, she's no longer a renegade but rather someone wrongfully arrested and that injustice need to be reversed. Something the Lawful players will appreciate at least.

    2. As a result of the tests done by Irenicus, her Bhaalspawn powers have started to awaken just like the PCs does and despite being a thief, she can cast one or two lvl 1 spells, Magic Missile or something. This also has the benefit of any magic related dialogue of hers not being made redundant.

    I like both of those suggestions. Imoen already is wearing an unremovable belt - it could have a property 'allows to cast one magic missle per day while in the sunlight' - the last part is to explain why she didn't used it until after you left the dungeon.

    But the option 2 is even better - I always found it weird that my 'sis' didn't have innate powers similar to mine. She could have a 'vampiric touch' or 'acid arrow' or sth similar as her first Bahl power. It could explain why the Cowls snatched her right away, rather than issuing a warning as they do for the party later on - they noticed that the way she cast magic was strange, and wanted to have a closer look.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Syntia13

    I'm not sure if it starts in Shadows of Amn or only in Throne of Bhaal, but Imoen eventually does start getting bhaalspawn powers.
  • CuvCuv Member, Developer Posts: 2,535
    ToB is where it starts to happen:)
  • Syntia13Syntia13 Member Posts: 514
    Tanthalas said:

    @Syntia13

    I'm not sure if it starts in Shadows of Amn or only in Throne of Bhaal, but Imoen eventually does start getting bhaalspawn powers.

    Heh, my first reaction to this was "No she doesn't!"
    The second one was "Well, maybe in ToB, I might have missed it as I didn't play ToB all that much"
    The third was to google it. Apparently, ToB has Imoen getting Bhaal powers, but it is buggy and sometimes fails to trigger.
    Apparently it works right and plays a bigger part in Ascension mod, but I never installed that, not being a fan of ToB to start with. ...This might have been a mistake on my part, I admit. Hey, do you know if BG2:EE will include Ascension? T'd would be neat.
  • SirBuliwyfSirBuliwyf Member Posts: 137
    If I recall correctly, Ascension was part made by modders and part made by a Dev in their own time though I can't remember which one. God it's so long I can't even remember what was in it. Some tougher Dragon fights I think...
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727

    If I recall correctly, Ascension was part made by modders and part made by a Dev in their own time though I can't remember which one. God it's so long I can't even remember what was in it. Some tougher Dragon fights I think...

    Everyone of the 5 bhaalspawns was much much more powerful, including the final boss, Demogorgon and Gromnir I believe.

    It was made also by David Gaider if I am not mistaken.

  • SirBuliwyfSirBuliwyf Member Posts: 137
    Ahh of course... I remember now. My meory was only partially failing me!
  • dandydandy Member Posts: 35
    Imoen not getting bhaalspawn powers was explained due to her easy going and innocent temperament, but after being tortured, it her heritage started to come out
    Not sure if this was part of vanilla or the ascension mod (I do know her powers do not show up without it), but I could swear she said something along the lines of "I'm a child of Bhaal? why don't I have your powers?"
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    I remember that when I got Imoen back in BG2, she was a very low level thief, despite me maxing out her thief level in BG 1. Can we have the game reflect that in BG2, i.e. her thief level at the end of BG1, start of BG2? You know, so she's actually useful as a thief again once you lose Yoshimo. Because after all the time I spent leveling her up, when I got her back, I was like, "Damn, Imoen! Did you lose all those memories of what you learned when you were with me?!" It was like she had brain damage, or something. Maybe this was a bug- I don't know. And I seem to have been one of the few players that didn't turn her into a thief/mage during the game. I kept her as a straight-up thief.
  • CommunardCommunard Member Posts: 556
    LadyRhian said:

    I remember that when I got Imoen back in BG2, she was a very low level thief, despite me maxing out her thief level in BG 1. Can we have the game reflect that in BG2, i.e. her thief level at the end of BG1, start of BG2? You know, so she's actually useful as a thief again once you lose Yoshimo. Because after all the time I spent leveling her up, when I got her back, I was like, "Damn, Imoen! Did you lose all those memories of what you learned when you were with me?!" It was like she had brain damage, or something. Maybe this was a bug- I don't know. And I seem to have been one of the few players that didn't turn her into a thief/mage during the game. I kept her as a straight-up thief.

    Well I mean plot-wise, she literally does have brain damage due to Irenicus' experiments ;)
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @communard Yet, her intelligence never goes down, as far as I could tell. Brain damage to the point where you lost memories or skills would probably not leave your ability to memorize spells untouched.
  • SirBuliwyfSirBuliwyf Member Posts: 137
    LadyRhian said:

    @communard Yet, her intelligence never goes down, as far as I could tell. Brain damage to the point where you lost memories or skills would probably not leave your ability to memorize spells untouched.

    That's pretty solid logic.

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    @LadyRhian the brain's a pretty unique organ. It's fairly possible to have personality change/loss of language or specific skillsets without necessarily affecting cognition and reasoning.

    Have a read of this if you're interested in that sort of thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_localization Or, more specifically http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apraxia
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