What about making it possible to play an Aasimar

IkonNavros

Would be nice to have the option to play as Aasimar in Baldur's Gate 1 or 2 Enhanced...

Any Chances to include that perhaps? I always loved to play a Celestial in Neverwinter Nights, so.. if that does not work against the contract of stuff which is allowed in the Enhanced Editions.. Would be nice to choose such a kind of Character here too

scriver

Iirc, the word is that new races won't be included in BGEE upon release, but they might be added later. That would include things like different subraces for non-humans, and I suppose also Aasimar and Tieflings.

sozcaps

I don't really think it would fit the theme of Baldur's Gate. An Aasimar protagonist would also mean that Bhaal was your father, and an angel was your mother. Would not likely happen in a million years.

A Tiefling would make more sense, but probably still wouldn't be all that 'true to the setting'.

SirBuliwyf

Your father is the god of murder... you want your mother to be an Angel?

scriver

Unless I'm completely mistaken, neither Aasimar or Tieflings have to be 50/50. CHARNAME's grandma could have been an angel, and his mother Aasimar herself. Especially since the Bhaalspawn becomes whatever race his mother were.

Tanthalas

They've mentioned the possibility of adding all the IWD2 races to BG post-release.

As for storyline purposes, I don't think that being an Aasimar poses any kind of problem.

Winthal

Also, outside of a power-gaming perspective (racial bonuses), new races add absolutely nothing to the game. The character models won't be different and people in the game won't react to you being aasimar or tiefling or whatever (because that requires the entire game being re-written for each race pretty much). If you want to play something different, you might as well use your imagination and write a little personal background to your character - then if you necessarily want to change the racial display, you can use shadowkeeper and turn yourself into an Ankheg or something :P

Medillen

Baal must have a wicked sense of humor if he fathered an aasimar ! (And what Irony if you were to decide to succeed him) But it does ressemble him. He likes defiling beautiful things.

But I wouldn't mind. Roleplaying speaking, it can bring a very tormented soul into play. A shame the game won't be able to stress that out. Plus, Aasimar are just "planetouched", so you don't have to have a angel for a mother, it might just be a seed in the family, like a distant ancestor.

Tanthalas

If you ignore the power gaming perspective, you could pretty much just eliminate all the races in BG too and stick with Humans and Half-elves so you can cover almost every single class and multi-class.

Winthal

Tanthalas said:

If you ignore the power gaming perspective, you could pretty much just eliminate all the races in BG too and stick with Humans and Half-elves so you can cover almost every single class and multi-class.

@Tanthalas Somewhat true, but at least the races that have their own character model feel abit more justified... nothing wrong with choosing a race for statistics either btw, it's just that I personally would like a race to mean something more than stats

sozcaps

Winthal said:

Also, outside of a power-gaming perspective (racial bonuses), new races add absolutely nothing to the game. The character models won't be different and people in the game won't react to you being aasimar or tiefling or whatever (because that requires the entire game being re-written for each race pretty much). If you want to play something different, you might as well use your imagination and write a little personal background to your character - then if you necessarily want to change the racial display, you can use shadowkeeper and turn yourself into an Ankheg or something :P

Indeed. Game-mechanically, it would add a lot less than, say, a new class kit. I guess it's cool to roleplay an Aasimar and everything, but unless it adds some aestethic value, it grows old really fast and does nothing other than perhaps look slightly different on the paperdoll inventory screen. If it does not just add some minor, arbitrary racial bonus and +1 / -1 to a couple stats, it hardly seems nescessary to force this kind of character into the game.

It fit into the NWN2 setting because the plot involved creatures from beyond the Planes; Outsiders. The Baldur's Gate setting, theme and atmosphere has basically nothing to do with Aasimar, Tieflings, Elementals and whatever other races NWN2 featured.

sozcaps

Tanthalas said:

They've mentioned the possibility of adding all the IWD2 races to BG post-release.

As for storyline purposes, I don't think that being an Aasimar poses any kind of problem.

It just doesn't seem like the EE is going to cater to the die-hard Baldur's Gate fans by being to quick to please fans of a completely different game, does it? All that spiritual successor stuff gets a different ring to it if EE is going to be about anything other than Baldur's Gate in the most purist of ways.

Tanthalas

@sozcaps

Eh, is adding the IWD2 races that bad?

ajwz

You can play as a tiefling (Haer Dalis) in bg2 so this doesn't seem like much of a stretch. I agree that a few new races as well as classes would be nice. I dont like level adjustments though, so lets not go overboard

The_New_Romance

You can play as a tiefling (Haer Dalis) in bg2 so this doesn't seem like much of a stretch. I agree that a few new races as well as classes would be nice. I dont like level adjustments though, so lets not go overboard

Level Adjustmens weren't in place in the 2nd Edition AD&D rules. It's 3E stuff, which is the basis for IWD2. I have no idea, though, how they handled the higher powerlevel of "odd" races in 2E.

Ravel

sozcaps said:

I don't really think it would fit the theme of Baldur's Gate. An Aasimar protagonist would also mean that Bhaal was your father, and an angel was your mother. Would not likely happen in a million years.

A Tiefling would make more sense, but probably still wouldn't be all that 'true to the setting'.

Maybe not consensually :P

Ravel

The_New_Romance said:

You can play as a tiefling (Haer Dalis) in bg2 so this doesn't seem like much of a stretch. I agree that a few new races as well as classes would be nice. I dont like level adjustments though, so lets not go overboard

Level Adjustmens weren't in place in the 2nd Edition AD&D rules. It's 3E stuff, which is the basis for IWD2. I have no idea, though, how they handled the higher powerlevel of "odd" races in 2E.

Yeah, and without level adjustments (which I always hated as a balancing mechanic, anyway), you'd have to tone down their racial bonuses - or give them other disadvantages - so as not to completely outclass the other races.

Dragonfolk2000

sozcaps said:

I don't really think it would fit the theme of Baldur's Gate. An Aasimar protagonist would also mean that Bhaal was your father, and an angel was your mother. Would not likely happen in a million years.

A Tiefling would make more sense, but probably still wouldn't be all that 'true to the setting'.

If an angel was an immediate relative then I doubt it was by conscious choice. In other words: she said "no" and he said "yes".

Mornmagor

Aasimars are not sons of angels.

They are descendants of them. And not angels only. Celestial beings in general.

ElectricMonk

I could take it or leave it with some of these races, but I don't really see the need for them. There are a few races that I do feel strongly about (such as Drow, which would actually need major story adjustments to make any sense).

As far as Planetouched, etc. go, apart from the fact that they're not playable in 2nd Edition AD&D as far as I know (I generally prefer that they stay true to the system), it wouldn't matter as long as the race doesn't need some sort of constant story justification, such as Duergar or Drow; and, of course, they would need to be appropriately balanced, which may end up taking away the appeal for people that think they'd like to see them implemented.

Cheesebelly

If an Aasimar PC would be created just by having Bhaal mate with an Angel, then why would we have elves in the first place? I mean, wouldn't they be all half elves?
My point here is - the PC's race is his mother's race. If his mother was Aasimar, the PC will be Aasimar. If his mother was elf, then the PC will be an Elf

ElectricMonk

Cheesebelly said:

If an Aasimar PC would be created just by having Bhaal mate with an Angel, then why would we have elves in the first place? I mean, wouldn't they be all half elves?
My point here is - the PC's race is his mother's race. If his mother was Aasimar, the PC will be Aasimar. If his mother was elf, then the PC will be an Elf

Yup, the race of the PC is always his/her mother's race. Apparently manifestations of gods don't pass on any racial attributes via procreation, just a slight divine essence and some cool powers (also if someone steals your soul you freak out and turn into a terrifying monster bent on murdering his/her friends).

LadyRhian

Planescape came out for 2e, and Aasimar and Tiefling were indeed races you could play in it, berk. I am an obsessive collector of 1st and 2nd edition stuff, so I still have the Planescape Boxed set. (and the Player's Primer to the Outlands, complete with the Audio CD/Mimir). As I recall, Aasimar got pluses to Strength and Wisdom, I think (+1) and a -2 to Constitution. "Though in many ways the aasimar are light of build and even somewhat frail, their celestial heritage protects them from half of the damage normally delivered from heat and cold attacks. Additionally, they gain a +2 bonus to saving throws versus any sort of magical charm, fear, emotion, or domination effect. All nonwizard aasimar have 10% magic resistance on top of all that. PC aasimar may be of any nonevil alignment, though most will be lawful, neutral, or chaotic good." Though they also got +1 to Surprise checks (I don't know if BG used that stat). So, it's not like it couldn't be done, just fiddly to get all the things into the game.

Planescape came out in 1994, Tieflings appeared in that, originally, Aasimar had to wait for the Planescape Monstrous Compendium, which came out in 1995, and were detailed as a player race in the Planeswalker's Handbook, which came out in 1996. 3e didn't appear until 4 years later. So they predate 3e D&D and 3e FR by quite a bit.

ElectricMonk

LadyRhian said:

Planescape came out for 2e, and Aasimar and Tiefling were indeed races you could play in it, berk.

@LadyRhian I'm assuming that this was directed at me? I should clarify my previous post. I'm aware of the Planescape campaign setting (and its playable races), and that it predates 3rd edition by quite a bit. I have (or had) the box set as well (I'm thinking it's tucked away somewhere in the attic atm). What I'm wondering as far as the rules go is if there's some precedent for cross-campaign balance concerning playable characters (I was referring to FR when I said 2nd Edition AD&D as that what's BG takes place in). As far as I know, there isn't anything stating that it's okay to use playable characters from one setting in a different one, and was wondering if I was mistaken on this point...

Let's just take the summary of Aasimar statistics that you provided, which are correct (if I recall correctly):
STR +1
WIS +1
CON -2
50% Fire Resist
50% Cold Resist
+2 Saving Throw Bonus for mind-affecting spells
10% Magic Resist (if not playing as an arcane spellcaster)
Slight alignment restriction

To me, it's pretty clear that this isn't at all balanced for a Forgotten Realms campaign, as the playable FR races don't even begin to stand a chance at comparing to these bonuses. Hence, my suggestion that they would need to be balanced to be playable in FR.

LadyRhian

@Jays1659 At least according to 2e D&D that saving throw against mind-affecting spells is no more than one gets for a high wisdom anyhow. Stats are balanced- +2 and -2 total out to 0. Dwarves and elves in base AD&D 2e got bonuses to things as well- elves are immune to sleep and charm spells, dwarves got a bonus to saves vs poison based on their constitution (up to +5, as I remember, for a 19 CON, which is possible, since they got +1 CON to their stats...) I am saying it wasn't really all that out of line with base race abilities at the time.

And part of the Planescape thing was playing people from a Prime Material Plane (Primes) in the outer planes vs. Natives of one of the outer planes/people born there (Planars). And since BG2 introduces Haer'dalis, who is a Tiefling (and Tieflings get similar bonuses to Aasimar characters, if slightly different ones- Tiefling characters gain a +1 bonus on Intelligence and Charisma scores, but suffer a -1 penalty to Strength and Wisdom. Tieflings can be of any alignment save lawful good. They also gain a number of special abilities, based on their mysterious heritage: They possess infravision to a range of 60 feet and have the ability to create darkness, 15-foot radius once per day. Tieflings suffer only half damage from cold-based attacks, and they gain a +2 bonus to all saving throws vs. fire, electricity, or poison.

Given that- a Tiefling exists in the game as a playable character/companion and Tiefling abilities are on par with those of Aasimar, I don't see how it would be impossible to use/have an Aasimar in the game. And the part about "There isn't anything stating it's okay to use playable characters from one setting in a different one", well Haer'dalis is already there, staring us in the face... He's from the Outer Planes and a Tiefling, and if that isn't saying it's outright okay, it strongly implies it is okay to do so.

ElectricMonk

LadyRhian said:

the part about "There isn't anything stating it's okay to use playable characters from one setting in a different one", well Haer'dalis is already there, staring us in the face... He's from the Outer Planes and a Tiefling, and if that isn't saying it's outright okay, it strongly implies it is okay to do so.

@LadyRhian I'm attempting to glean a precedent in the canon D&D rules themselves, not a precedent in BG as far as future implementations (for balance reasons) are concerned. BG did take a number of liberties with the rules (which is their prerogative), so Hear'Dalis being a joinable NPC (not to mention Viconia as a Drow with her 50% magic resistance) isn't really what I was wondering about as far as a D&D-specific precedent. In other words, joinable NPC doesn't necessarily equal playable character as far as BG is concerned.

I know that the other races do have bonuses of their own, but in my opinion they don't compare to the bonuses of the planetouched races. You mentioned that the saving throw against mind-affecting spells is no different than the AD&D bonus for high wisdom, yet it is clearly applied on top of the bonus given by the wisdom score (unless I'm mistaken about this?).

I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative, just trying to make my point clear as I was wondering if there is something clear within D&D rules (not BG) that states that it's okay to use playable characters from one campaign setting in another (and that they're balanced as such).

LadyRhian

@Jays1659 In the P&P game, it was always up to the GM as to what to allow. I ran a game with a Tiefling in it, and one online with an Asimaar. Of course, you had GMs who ran the so-called "Monty Haul" games as well, "And behind this door, you find... 100,000 gold pieces!" Crowd: Ooooh, aaaahh... But yes, in AD&D, it's always up to the GM.

ElectricMonk

@LadyRhian Yeah, I know there was always more of a feeling of "it's up to the DM" in the older versions than in the more recent ones and we always gave full control to the DM in our games, but this still isn't what I was asking lol (hopefully I'm not seeming unreasonable here, just looking for someone to come along that does have an answer to my specific question concerning a written D&D precedent).

Anyway, I'm thinking that I was correct in that there is no specific line stating that it's okay and balanced... but one thing suggesting that it may have been balanced is the class leveling limits that I just recalled. As in, Aasimars and some other powerful races could only advance to certain levels in certain classes (and I think it was less than the normal non-human FR races...?). Then again, this still wouldn't balance them for play in BG as BG allows all races to advance to any level in any class.

LadyRhian

@Jays1659 Yes. Tieflings, also. It's on this page: http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~leirbakk/rpg/adnd/races/adnd_races_planescaperaceslist.html

Baldur

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Aasimar/Tieflings also have a penalty on their experience gain, don't they? It's kind of the counter-balance to their base-given abilities that they level up more slowly.

LadyRhian

@Baldur I don't know. Not any more than Bariaur or Genasi. I will have to check in "Warriors of Heaven" when I get home from work tonight.