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Loot table à la Icewind Dale

Daedalus87mDaedalus87m Member Posts: 92
Something that I liked in Icewind Dale, was the fact that there are lots units that have an itemloot pool and you always get a random one out of the items assigned to him. I would like the same to be introduced in BG.

Example:

You kill XY Ogre boss, instead of always dropping Gauntlents X, he would have a chance of dropping Ring Y or Armor Z instead. This way replay value can be further increased and it adds a nice twist to items. This could also be a nice method for introducing new item types like Katanas, Wakizashi etc. and also increase the number of underrepresented items.
Post edited by Daedalus87m on

Comments

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Yeah, someone already requested this one. I'll see if I can dig it up.
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    It had positives and negatives - One unfortunate disadvantage is that if there is an item more powerful than the others or good for a specific class then the random drops mean a bunch of saving and reloading if you need it for your character build.
    On the other hand, it does keep the game fresh, and makes you excited when something nice drops.
  • JJ1897JJ1897 Member Posts: 11
    I'm used to creatures dropping the same items every single time. I guess we all need some constancy in our lives, eh? ;)
  • looterlooter Member Posts: 12
    As simple as loot-tables are, I love them. It really just adds another layer of challenge and fun to the game when you don't know what gear to expect at certain levels throughout the game, and adds more re playability. If it won't be added in via the developers, it would be really awesome to have a mod that does this.
  • RavelRavel Member Posts: 140
    edited July 2012
    ajwz said:

    It had positives and negatives - One unfortunate disadvantage is that if there is an item more powerful than the others or good for a specific class then the random drops mean a bunch of saving and reloading if you need it for your character build.

    I had this huge response typed out about how I would love a more completely random loot drop instead of a loot-table system for this very reason..., but in the end it came down to two problems.

    You can avoid the problem you presented with a completely random loot system (as opposed to a loot table) since the drop possibilities are too varied to reliable farm a single item. However, you get an even larger problem (imo) since you can no longer tailor what items drop to the particular monster/boss. So, it's entirely possible to have beserkers dropping mage robes, mages who were apparently carrying full-plate, etc. I imagine for most people this breaks the immersion pretty badly, since one of the most exciting moments of the game (checking out new loot) is tainted by the reminder that you're just playing a game.

    Now, normally you'd think there could be a middle ground where the random drops must be items that the enemy's class would allow him/her to use.., but I don't know if Baldur's Gate I has a large enough magical item database to discourage attempts to farm a particular item. Plus, you'd still miss out on some of the previous immersion unless you also equipped the bosses with the randomly generated items - which would arguably add even more replayability..., but would probably mangle balancing each fight's difficulty.

    Anyways, tl;dr: in the end I'd prefer just a simple loot table, as the only real problem I can see it creating (players trying to grind a specific drop via reloads) is easily fixed with a little player discipline.
  • Daedalus87mDaedalus87m Member Posts: 92
    @Ravel - They don't have to add a usable item for everyclass on every "boss" types (e.g. no mage items from berserker type boss) it's as simple as that.

    @ajwz - Reloading is something that depends on the player. If you like to reload everytime when something doesn't fit you (e.g. you don't get your loot, lvl up doesnt give max hp, someone dies etc.) then of course it's your right to do so, but there are other people that don't reload every time and like to live with what comes at them.

    I think it's an interesting way to also reduce the urge to go all like "ok, I have to get THIS class because X item is there and is soooo imba so I HAVE to go there asap."
    Stuff like that just limits variety in playstyle.
  • looterlooter Member Posts: 12
    @Ravel I think those problems are why most major games use loot tables, so they can tailor whats possible so that immersion isn't ruined or your level 1 fighter doesn't get full plate +3 after killing a rat. As long as the tables per creature make sense (no rats dropping swords etc.) its fine, and can still be pseudo random. Anything is better than knowing exactly what drops, when, and where every single playthrough, it kind of kills the suspension/excitement somewhat imo. Then again, I probably place more value on loot in games than most lol, i was spoiled by diablo and titans quest.
  • SirBuliwyfSirBuliwyf Member Posts: 137
    I find randomized loot utterly boring. I love when the item is more than just a +1 sword but rather a sword with a name and a story and a *reason for being where it is*. The writers do so well to create a spellbinding world filled with stories and mystery, it would cheapen it just to make whatever you find the result of a call to the random number generator and nothing else.
  • DMZDMZ Member Posts: 39
    The Randomizer mod already does this, so importing mod code shouldn't be too hard.
  • sozcapssozcaps Member Posts: 16

    Something that I liked in Icewind Dale, was the fact that there are lots units that have an itemloot pool and you always get a random one out of the items assigned to him. I would like the same to be introduced in BG.

    Example:

    You kill XY Ogre boss, instead of always dropping Gauntlents X, he would have a chance of dropping Ring Y or Armor Z instead. This way replay value can be further increased and it adds a nice twist to items. This could also be a nice method for introducing new item types like Katanas, Wakizashi etc. and also increase the number of underrepresented items.

    It would be fun to have on "trash" monsters and in chests. But if a boss drops the wrong item, are you then supposed to replay the entire game through all over again until it does drop?
  • RavelRavel Member Posts: 140
    edited July 2012
    looter said:

    @Ravel I think those problems are why most major games use loot tables, so they can tailor whats possible so that immersion isn't ruined or your level 1 fighter doesn't get full plate +3 after killing a rat.

    Well, as far as the whole full plate + 3 after killing a rat goes - I wouldn't ever allow loot to drop above a certain threshold. Sure, you could get stuff above your level - but it would hopefully work so that when it did happen, you'd only be satisfied with that item for the next ~4 hours, and it would happen so rarely that it wouldn't be worthwhile to farm such drops.
    looter said:

    Anything is better than knowing exactly what drops, when, and where every single playthrough, it kind of kills the suspension/excitement somewhat imo.

    I agree. Knowing exactly what drops where can kill a seasoned player's immersion just as easily as dropping the wrong kind of loot does. After you've played through the game a few times it becomes much more mechanical, and about going through a specific set of moves and motions when you know exactly what drops where. Adding any sort of loot variety reintroduces that reactionary element to your equipment, forcing you to adapt to what the game gives you - making subsequent playthroughs much more similar to your first (and probably most immersive) playthrough.

    Now, you still know the quests, maps, and boss fights - and there's no easy way of changing that - but changing this one element is like tricking your mind into believing you've stepped into this parallel existence where you know and understand the framework of what's going on..., but the exact details have yet to be revealed. Thus, hopefully, making the game easier to immerse yourself in once again.
    Post edited by Ravel on
  • Daedalus87mDaedalus87m Member Posts: 92
    edited July 2012
    @SirBuliwyf - I'm not suggesting that the items from the loottable should be some random "Longsword +1" or something, but rather unique items with their own name, story and special bonuses etc.

    Example: In Icewind Dale, when you kill a certain person called Kaylessa, then she always drops:

    1 Boots of Speed
    +
    1 of the following: Kaylessa's Ring, Kaylessa's Gloves, Kaylessa's Elven Chainmail or Kaylessa's Bow

    The latter do all have their own background story and special bonuses like +dexterity and so on.
  • SirBuliwyfSirBuliwyf Member Posts: 137
    That sounds like a lot of effort going into content that may never be seen.

    Still if it were strictly controlled then I supposed that could work in part but I wouldn't see the point, For example, special items in the game like Carsomyr, the Flail of ages or Lilacor.

    Could you really see them being converted into Carsomyr or a fleshed out version of (Paladin 1h weapon, Paladin Helm, Paladin shield). Lilcaor becomes either the talking sword or one of (talking Mace that is evil and spiteful, talking necklace that tried to seduce other people and boost your love life by faking your voice). These items could be great in their own right and shouldn't become an either/or.

    The flail of ages is special because it was the weapon of choice of the man who owned D'Arnise Keep. It shouldn't be anywhere else and there shouldn't be another item there instead of it. It's part of the plot.

    Celestial Fury has no plot attached and so you could argue there could be alternatives to drop instead of it but really. it;s a great sword to get early on. Can you imagine a game where the random number generator gives you nought but daggers, maces, rings and shield when all you;re crying out for is a decent 2h sword? Fixed loot lets you control matters and make sure everyone of all specializations is well catered for (I'm aware clubs were neglected in BG1 but the way to fix that is to add more clubs).
  • The_New_RomanceThe_New_Romance Member Posts: 839
    I wouldn't like that. I somehow find that it doesn't fit the mood of the game. IWD as a dungeon crawler is different, but even there sub-par loot got on my nerves pretty fast. I'm just not disciplined enough to go with whatever the game gives me as long as a) I know there could've been better stuff and b) there's an easy way to get it (i.e. reloading). Roguelikes and ironman modes are okay, I enjoy those, but they shut out temptation completely, so your discipline (or lack thereof) doesn't matter.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    Had Chuck Norris would be ever interested in this topic, I'm sure he would have approved this idea.
  • NirmakNirmak Member Posts: 4
    Pleaaase don't do that. It's just immersion to loot exactly what monsters own. I don't want a baldur's diablo. I like Diablo, but this is two VERY different games.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    @Nirmak Request is about random loot after specific opponents, not common enemies. Meaning that, for instance, Firkraag wouldn't always have Cloak of Stars on his body (thought quest-related items and scales will remain), but instead some other magical item (while Cloak of Stars would still be found somewhere else). So it wouldn't feel like Diablo at all, but instead it would make the game less predictable.
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    While IWD's loot tables WERE interesting, they could be very gimping.

    As an example, one of the random Chests in the Forgotten Temple has:

    A +2 Longbow with added AC and resists.
    A +1 Longbow with added AC and saves
    A +1 Shortbow, no added effects
    A +1 Small Shield


    To be blunt, you want to savescum until you get that +2 Longbow, the only +2 launcher you'll be seeing for a whole Chapter or so.
  • paulsifer42paulsifer42 Member Posts: 267
    I'm torn on this. I played BG after Diablo, and I thought it was so immersing to pick up exactly what that monster was carrying, but I can see how it might be nice not to know.
  • NirmakNirmak Member Posts: 4
    @ZelgadisGW Okay, i understand. You mean randomize monsters equipement, not only loots? I think it's a good idea.

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