The Minimal Reload 'Random Game' Challenge (Lem's version) - Revised! (warning: spoilers!)

Lemernis

This is the minimal reload version of the 'random game' challenge using Drone's random character generation system, and the WotC dice roller to generate party members. This version is a bit more forgiving than no-reload, as it allows players to have playthroughs that they can actually complete. It has its own unique challenges however.

Here are the rules:

(Don't worry, it's actually very simple. Read a brief summary here.)

1) Randomly generate your character from the best of five number sets via the number generator (see below).

2) Then roll up five party members before beginning the game. If you roll a NPC more than once you may re-roll. You only roll once for your starting party (versus best of five tries, as with the PC). The exception to this rule is if you roll three or more NPCs that aren't available until chapters 4 or 5. Then you may re-roll for the entire set of five NPCs.

3) Select a PC from the set of five you generated for the party you rolled.

4) Once you begin your game you may add your starting party in any order.

5) What to do if you roll a force-paired NPC: If you have the CLUA Console enabled, you can Ctrl+Y a paired NPC member. But you do have to then remove the deceased NPC, which means they're gone for good. Otherwise remove them however you wish. Note that if you are able to "park" the unwanted member of the NPC pair inside a building and remove that one there (with the entire rest of the party inside a different building to prevent the kickout dialogue), this has the advantage that you can still use them, should you roll that NPC later (see below). You may carry the meta-killed forced-pair NPC to a temple to have him or her resurrected and park them. If you need to temporarily remove one of your NPCs in order to create a slot to do this, that's fine.

6) If a NPC dies there is no obligation to resurrect him/her. (Slain NPCs may be resurrected if you wish.) You may remove the deceased NPC from the party and roll another NPC. However, since the point of a game like this is to enjoy the challenge of getting the most out of classes, kits, and NPCs that you probably don't ordinarily use, it would be bad form to engineer the NPC having an "accident" a la what many players do with Khalid. That's on the honor system. But you should always be earnestly trying to work with whatever cards you've been dealt.

7) After you have assembled a party of six you are free to dismiss NPCs. If you wish to replace a dismissed NPC you must roll a new NPC. (If you roll a NPC that is already in your party, or deceased/removed, then re-roll.) Also, after you have assembled a party of six you are then not required to maintain a full party. If a NPC dies that character can be removed from the party, and does not have to be replaced. But of course you can always have a party of six, if you like.

8) Imoen auto-joins, and you can take her items before dismissing her if you didn't roll her as a party member. You may add Neera temporarily just to take her gem bag.

9) You may meta-game freely. This is basically a tactical challenge.

10) Reload only if the PC dies. No other reloading allowed (except for clearcut technical glitches).

11) Any difficulty setting is allowed, and you may use Auto-pause and heal fully upon rest. However, games completed at higher difficulty settings, that do not use auto-pause, and are set to heal normally upon rest will trump those that use settings that make the game easier. When posting a result please note difficulty setting, auto-pause (yes or no), and heal upon rest setting.

12) You can use CLUA for Ctrl+Ying unwanted NPCs that are force-paired, and also ExploreArea() to remove the fog of war. But otherwise no cheats allowed such as CTRL+J, etc.

13) Whoever gets the farthest in the fewest number of days will be featured on the Leader Board. There are two Leader Board categories: Vanilla and with SCS installed.

You are encouraged to share your results even if you don't have a "Best Thus Far" game for the Leader Board in the overall contest. You may find that you can enjoy this challenge as a runner competes against his or her own personal best times, versus in competition with others. If you play one of these games please share about it in this thread, and we encourage you to post your own personal best! Eg, You got as far as such-and-such in x number of days, using so-and-so, etc.

Use this random character generator system to create your PC:


Here are the guidelines for randomly generating your PC using the number generator:

First randomly generate a 4 digit number at this this site. To roll a four digit number put in the values for the generator thusly and click the Generate button.

This four digit number determines Gender, Race, Class and Sub-class or Multi-class, according to the system's color coded chart.

Next, randomly generate a three digit number with the values adjusted like this, with the results again determined according to the system's chart.

The three digit number determines Alignment, Abilities, and Voice Set.

Notes:

• If there is no Sub-class or Multi-class ignore the fourth digit of the four digit number.
• A 9 for the third digit of the four digit number results in a Sorcerer, Monk, or Barbarian, two of which had no subclasses when Drone devised this system, but now we have the new sub-class kits for the Sorcerer and Monk... Anyway, you can either pick what you like from among them, or you use the dice roller linked below and roll a 1d6 with numbers 1-6 assigned to Sorcerer, Dragon Born Sorcerer, Monk, Sun Soul Monk, Dark Moon Monk, and Barbarian, respectively.
• If your Race or Class restricts an alignment re-roll via a custom die via the dice roller tool linked below or just round up.
  
• The Voice Set you roll is isn't a requirement for this contest. Obviously, if what you roll is a really poor fit, or another one is perfect, etc., feel free to use whichever voice you like.

You can use this thread for reference as to race and alignment restrictions for various classes.

In the same spirit, why not use the WotC Character Name Generator.

To roll your party use this alphabetical list of NPCs

1 - Ajantis
2 - Alora
3 - Baeloth
4 - Branwen
5 - Coran
6 - Dorn
7 - Dynaheir
8 - Edwin
9 - Eldoth
10 - Faldorn
11 - Garrick
12 - Imoen
13 - Jaheira
14 - Kagain
15 - Khalid
16 - Kivan
17 - Minsc
18 - Montaron
19 - Neera
20 - Quayle
21 - Rasaad
22 - Safana
23 - Shar-Teel
24 - Skie
25 - Tiax
26 - Viconia
27 - Xan
28 - Xzar
29 - Yeslick

and the WotC dice roller with a 1d29 (at the bottom row set the "Die" column box to 29 and "Nbr" column box to 1") to determine party members. See here.


-------------------------------

Minimal Reload Random Game Challenge Leader Board:

Vanilla
This is for vanilla BG:EE games. Any difficulty setting is allowed, and you may use Auto-pause, and heal fully upon rest. However games completed at higher difficulty settings, that do not use auto-pause, and are set to heal normally upon rest will trump those that use settings that make the game easier.

Best Thus Far: (None yet.)

SCS
This is if you're playing with the Sword Coast Stratagems mod with at least AI Modifications installed, other components optional. Warning: Obviously this will be more difficult.

Best Thus Far: (None yet.)
with a 1d29 (at the bottom row set the /blockquote target=a href=

Lemernis

So, to summarize, the challenges here are:

• Using a class or kit that you ordinarily wouldn't.
• Using combinations of NPCs that you normally wouldn't.
• When you roll NPCs that aren't available until later in the game, having to make do with such a party until you get that NPC.
• Reloading only when your PC dies.

You're most often going to face some very interesting tactical challenges. So if you want to spice things up and get out of a rut (eg, always playing the same class over and over, and/or always using the same NPCs), this could be what you need to explore some new dimensions of the game, and to broaden your experience of it.

As far as the competition aspect goes, that's mainly whimsical fun. It's obviously going to be tougher if you roll a Beastmaster with gimped stats, then Rasaad, then Garrick--but then the next NPC you roll is Alora. You'll then have to make do with that party until you get to Alora. And by the same token, it will be much easier if you roll a Berserker with god-like stats, and roll Imoen, Kagain, Edwin, Dorn, and Viconia. But I don't see any way to handicap the game for such things that wouldn't be painfully complicated.

So the competition part is mainly just to share in the fun. And it should also just be fun to see what sorts of experiences people have using this method to play the game. Some of the strategies people will have to come up with surely be ingenious.

franco

@Lemernis. In your fourth bullet at the top of your post above, I think you mean

. Reloading only when your PC dies.

You may want to edit.

Your Minimum Reload Random Game Challenge looks like fun, and I hope to try it sometime.
I hope to follow the progress here.

What would be interesting to me is the experience of getting through the game with different size
parties and different party compositions. As conditions change you will also have to alter your tactics
to meet them.

franco

@Lemernis. In reading your rules above, I see that you must add one NPC at a time before adding the next.
As an example I rolled the 1d29 dice generator and got 16 Kivan.

Now that means that in my first game Charname would have to solo until he gets to Kivan in the Cloakwood. He would have to level up solo enough just to survive on the way to recruit him. Among players accepting the challenge, it is probable that some will have to play solo for awhile while others may get a party of 3 or 4 relatively early. In a way it's like life. Some people get lots help early while others need to go it on their own for a much longer time.

For another potential challenge have you considered rolling all 5 NPC party members at once, and recruiting them In whatever order you can? You won't have to spend as much time playing solo, but many parties will still be depleted until you get to later chapters, but for the player the game will still be significantly different each time out. Also, the combination of NPCs in the party will still vary quite a bit from game to game. Either game gives more of the freshness and tension increasing uncertainty that I know you're shooting for, but with a somewhat different experience.

FinneousPJ

@franco Kivan's found in High Hedge.

franco

FinneousPJ said:

@franco Kivan's found in High Hedge.

Thanks @FinneousPJ. My mistake. I was thinking of Coran.

It reminds me of professor at school who told me he had interviewed a candidate for a teaching position in the chemistry department. He said that in the evaluation he wrote "brilliant mind, unencumbered by a single fact."

FinneousPJ

Yeah, aside the obvious difference they're quite similar characters.

That's a nice quote, I might have to use it some day.

Lemernis

franco said:

@Lemernis. In reading your rules above, I see that you must add one NPC at a time before adding the next.
As an example I rolled the 1d29 dice generator and got 16 Kivan.

Now that means that in my first game Charname would have to solo until he gets to Kivan in the Cloakwood. He would have to level up solo enough just to survive on the way to recruit him. Among players accepting the challenge, it is probable that some will have to play solo for awhile while others may get a party of 3 or 4 relatively early. In a way it's like life. Some people get lots help early while others need to go it on their own for a much longer time.

For another potential challenge have you considered rolling all 5 NPC party members at once, and recruiting them In whatever order you can? You won't have to spend as much time playing solo, but many parties will still be depleted until you get to later chapters, but for the player the game will still be significantly different each time out. Also, the combination of NPCs in the party will still vary quite a bit from game to game. Either game gives more of the freshness and tension increasing uncertainty that I know you're shooting for, but with a somewhat different experience.

As noted Kivan here = Coran, for the purposes of your example.

Yeah, I should have thought that through better, lol. I was just trying to come up with an interesting twist. Soloing until chapter 4 would be tough as nails with some classes or kits, especially if you don't get good Ability scores.

The whole idea is to have fun with random generated characters--not to create a challenge that is too difficult to enjoy.

So I think you're right, it's probably best to roll all five and add them in any order that you prefer.

I'll amend the rules accordingly. Thanks for the feedback!

Lemernis

Okay, well hopefully those new rules make sense. It isn't as complicated as it might appear:

Rules Summary

Randomly generate your PC by first generating a set of five to choose from.

Then roll all five NPCs. Match the PC you like best from among the five you generated to the party you rolled.

Start the game. Add the NPCs in any order you like. You must first add all the NPCs you pre-rolled (although if one of the pre-rolled ones dies before you fill the entire party out, you can remove that slain NPC and roll a new one).

Once you have assembled a party of six (a full party, however you come by it within the rules) you're free to dismiss NPCs. You don't have to replace a dismissed NPC. But if you do, you must then roll a new one.

Similarly, if a NPC dies you're free to remove them and continue without that slot filled. But if you do want to fill that slot, you have to roll a new NPC. (You can resurrect a slain NPC as well.)

After you have initially assembled a party of six there's no requirement to maintain a full party.

You may reload only if the PC dies (or for an obvious technical glitch).

So that's it in a nutshell. There's a bit more detail in the rules posted in the topic starter to cover various circumstances and other issues.

I'm going to try a game myself to illustrate it, and see how fun it is. Please feel free to help me playtest the model! I'm totally open to revising this to make it as fun as possible.

Lemernis

So here's my set of five random generated characters, from which I'll choose one to play the game with after I roll up the party:

2292 573
TN male human Dragon Disciple Sorcerer
7 ability score re-rolls - Male2 voice

1202 873
NE human Fighter/Cleric (this can either be human dual-class or half-elf multi-class)
7 ability score re-rolls - Male2 voice

1716 745
LE male halfling Wizard Slayer
4 ability score re-rolls - Male3 voice

9073 307
CG pick gender - female, pick race - half-orc, Assassin
0 (!) ability score re-rolls - Female4 voice

4358 714
LE TN male half-elf Avenger
1 ability score re-roll - Male2 voice

And here is what I first rolled for the starting party:

29 - Yeslick
10 - Faldorn
20 - Quayle
7 - Dynaheir
21 - Rasaad

But because three or more of the NPCs aren't available until chapters 4 or 5, I get to re-roll the whole lot. Which I will certainly choose to do. So here goes:

18 - Montaron
14 - Kagain
12 - Imoen
15 - Khalid
20 - Quayle

And that is the party that I must assemble first, before I can dismiss and replace any of them. And mind you, after assembling that initial party, if I want to replace any of them then I'm literally rolling the dice on the replacement.

So now I have to decide which among the five PCs I rolled should go with this party...

There are no healers amongst my NPCs until chapter 5. Because this challenge is (for me) about shaking things up, I will try the Avenger, having never played one before.

Zanven Wolfswift
TN half-elven Avenger
1 ability score re-roll - 81 total
Str 12
Dex 18
Con 10
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 15 (min)

Darts +
Quarterstaff +

The party is balanced otherwise (Imoen can dual to mage at Thief 2). A little boring, but a strong party.

FinneousPJ

It's a pretty good party.

Lemernis

The example I shared above really isn't the best illustration of the concept because, the dice actually gave me a pretty traditional party composition! So tactically it won't be all that interesting, I don't think.

I'll still choose from among the set of five NPCs I rolled above, but I'll roll again for the party to see if I turn up a bit more of an unorthodox team.

This is just for the purposes of illustrating the broader concept of playing offbeat parties that present unsual tactical challenges. Otherwise, when playing a game like this, as @Finneous PJ points, it defeats the purpose to keep re-rolling until you get something you like. (Although, ironically, here I end up with a weaker party.)

13 - Jaheira
5 - Coran
27 - Xan
20 - Quayle
7 - Dynaheir

And this looks a little more interesting tactically, for sure. I have to think a bit on which among the five PCs to choose from to pair up with this lot...

And since I'm playing this for fun value of trying something unusual, moreso than the speed game competition... while Fighter/Cleric will be the strongest choice, I think I want to do something different...

FinneousPJ

Lol if you keep rerolling until you get something you want doesn't that
defeat the purpose of this...

Lemernis

That is true! In my effort to illustrate the concept most vividly, I'm inadvertently modeling poor sportsmanship!

Lemernis

@FinneousPJ Think I should just go with the original roll for the party to model the proper way of going about this? Versus bending the rules just this once to illustrate a game that requires more innovative tactics?

FinneousPJ

I think yes, go with the original. Sometimes you get a better party - sometimes worse - that's part of the concept.

Lemernis

Okay, makes good sense! I shall proceed with the original. Thx

Lemernis

Okay, here is an interesting option for the rules to entertain, given the framework we're using here:

Should we be allow keeping an unwanted/deceased NPC that was forced-paired until the party reaches location where that NPC can be resurrected and "parked"? Only if there is an open slot to do that with...

For example, I just had Monty backstab and kill Xzar. But it would certainly be nice to have Xzar available later, should I wish later on to dismiss a NPC and roll another one (which I'm free to do after I've assembled a party of six). I have an empty slot for Xzar's slain body now and I'm headed to FAI. If I ressurect him at the temple there, I can park him at the inn for possible future use.

Thoughts on amending the rules as such, i.e., to carry meta-killed force-paired NPCs to a location where they can be resurrected and parked? ( But only if there is an empty slot in the party with which to do this.)

For this game I'm going to go ahead and remove Xzar. Just curious what folks would prefer for a game of this type.

Lemernis

Hmm! The old trick of removing a paired NPC inside a building while separated from the other member of the pair who is standing outside isn't working, at least here with my attempt to remove Jaheira. Khalid gets removed along with her, regardless of the fact that he is outside the building. Was that a "fix" with BG:EE? Anyway, I guess I'll have to Ctrl+Y her. Oh well.

franco

Lemernis said:

Hmm! The old trick of removing a paired NPC inside a building while separated from the other member of the pair who is standing outside isn't working, at least here with my attempt to remove Jaheira. Khalid gets removed along with her, regardless of the fact that he is outside the building. Was that a "fix" with BG:EE? Anyway, I guess I'll have to Ctrl+Y her. Oh well.

This may be useful information:
In BGEE, I was able to separate Montaron and Xzar the other day with both inside the FAI main building. First I sent Montaron solo up to the 2nd floor, with the party still on the ground floor. Then I removed him from the party. Xzar has remained, traveling with me in Beregost now. (But while still in FAI, if you then bring the party up to the 2nd floor where Montaron is, then Xzar will also leave).

Wanderon

Lemernis said:

Hmm! The old trick of removing a paired NPC inside a building while separated from the other member of the pair who is standing outside isn't working, at least here with my attempt to remove Jaheira. Khalid gets removed along with her, regardless of the fact that he is outside the building. Was that a "fix" with BG:EE? Anyway, I guess I'll have to Ctrl+Y her. Oh well.

Just guessing here but was Jahiera in same area as the remainder of the party (and Khalid outside by himself)? - if so that won't work - what has to happen for the "separate the couple" to work is the one being removed must be away from the party so they cannot initiate their "good-bye" speech to claim their partner. So parking Jahiera at the top of the FAI (alone) and dismissing her while the party is in the tavern should keep her from talking to you and taking Khalid.

Lemernis

Well, re: the FAI inn building "you must gather your party before venturing forth." So you can't leave a party member inside alone--they all have to came and go together.

But I went back to my save where I left off in the game proper and tested this. You can leave her in one of the outbuildings on the west side of the fortress. Then I took the party inside FAI's temple and removed Jaheira and it seemed to work fine that way.

It's about five years or longer since I did that, I'd forgotten that preventing the kickout dialogue is what makes this work.

My first try at leaving Jaheira in the outbuilding failed. The party was standing just outside the building, and after I booted her she walked out to gather Khalid then gave her speech, lol.

Lemernis

Are druids immune from their own Entangle spells? In taking out the ogre in the Lion's Way map I had my Avenger use that spell and the party used ranged weapons. Zanven entered into the AoE of the spell to hurl his darts and seemed unaffected. Maybe he just saved while he was subject to the spell effect. But I almost never played druids back in the day and I rarely have Jaheira cast it (for the same reason that I rarely use Web). It would make a certain sense if druids could move freely among the magical vines they call forth.

Edit: Answer is no.

FinneousPJ

Indeed you're not immune to your own spells.

Lemernis

This game is not starting off too well, lol.

Party: Avenger, Imoen, Montaron, Kagain, and Khalid. So I have next to no magic. Zanven has three druid spell slots.

To try something a little different I've been going with more of a ranged approach--even with Kagain and Khalid. Monty stealths and hurls a sling bullet. By doing so he draws enemies towards the rest of the party who have their ranged weapons prepared. The approaching enemy gets peppered with arrows, bolts, darts, and bullets. Then when the enemy closes in Kagain and Khalid switch to melee.

So this has been working fairly well. And I figured I would use a strategy on Basillus that I've never tried before that's somewhat along these lines. Maybe I could Entangle him, and use ranged weapons along with the wand of missiles to disrupt his spells. Might work, right?

Mmm, no. I sort of overlooked the conversation to make the skeletons disappear. And it sucks have to fight Bassilus with a level 1 party when he's using that army of skeletons. The skellies' crossbow bolts killed Monty. And then Basillius emerged from the vines and started casting. I had Kagain gulp down an oil of speed and charge Basillus. I sent Khalid in as well.

I fired the missile wand, but it did not prevent Bassilus from casting. He cast a couple spells that the two Fighters saved against, so I was briefly hopeful. But eventually he Held Khalid and Kagain and killed them both. So Zanven and Imoen hightailed it out of there.

I returned to Beregost and raised the fallen. But the problem now is getting their gear back. Bassilus had moved quite a distance from his starting location, btw. But where I left him I think he was within viewing distance of Khalid's, Kagain's and Monty's gear. I guess I'll find out when I return if he's back to his original position on the map.

I have some gold to outfit them again, but not as well. And I did stop at Naskhel already but forgot to get the ankheg armor. So I could make the hike down to Nashkel to get that armor for Kagain.

Couple questions:

When invisible via a potion, if you pick up items do you become visible?

Does Bassilus get his spells refreshed when you return in a scenario like this?

franco

Doing Bassilus at level 1 has got to be murder. Level 1 and no mage sounds almost like suicide. I wonder what the conversation line is to remove the undead there. Do you as the player have the option of what level you will be when facing this encounter?

Would it help in this kind of situation to go through the conversation, but then when Basillus turns red to run away out of sight? He must be using up some spells. You can try taking a walk in the other direction and eventually come back when some of his spells and buffs may have worn off.

You mentioned the Ankheg armor in Beregost. I'm pretty sure it wasn't there when I played original BG. How do you get it in BGEE?

Good luck. I'm waiting to hear how your run continues with that party. The good thing is that you are trying to play the game with new obstacles rather than boring pre planned meta gaming, so it becomes a new experience.

Tinter

Picking up items does indeed break invisibility although not, I believe, Sanctuary (which obviously you don't have).

I believe so. In SCS (which I think you use?) he certainly will. I also think SCS prevents the conversation killing all his undead whatever you say (you can only kill some).

You could just send them in to pick up their gear and then run away. If they die, you lose the cost of raising: but I imagine at least one or two would make it out, possibly with all the gear, though that would involve risk. How this works out for you depends on the value of the gear.

If I were you I'd be metagaming a bit harder but, then, I'm not.

BTW, I'm not likely to do it any time soon, but how about an all random multiplayer party? That could be a blast, really don't know what you will get.

Wanderon

IIRC entangle does not stop you from using ranged weapons - it just won't let you move - I don't recall if it takes the players control away - I don't think so - just finished a 12 hour shift - too tired to fire the game up and check LOL

Tinter

Entangle stops movement and applies +2 to armour class. However, spellcasting, fighting, ect can all be performed as normal. The +2 might help with spell disruption, and/or stopping movement might help run away, but I wouldn't bet the party on either.

Lemernis

The gear worth retrieving: Boots of Stealth, the Whistler, and Girdle of Piercing, RoP +1, healing potions.

I should have mentioned that this is a vanilla game, and actually I am meta-gaming with aplomb (in another game I've been posting that's heavily RPed I'm not, but for this challenge it's fine to meta-game). I wish I could blame the poor tactical decision on a no-meta-gaming approach! But here as a player I'm afraid I just unwisely took on too big a challenge for the party's level.

I'm so used to defeating Bassilus quite easily, often at very low level, by choosing the dialogue options to destroy the skellies and then using spells like Silence and Blindness. But here, in order to up the challenge and try something different, I crept out on a limb this time (then started sawing it).

In my poorly conceived plan, I figured Bassilus might be held stationary by the vines (although there's no guarantee of that); and I would use the missile wand to disrupt his spells and then everyone would shoot arrows, bolts, and sling bullets at him. The hope was that then I would at least not have to deal with his hammer.

What I will try next is the Avenger's Chromatic Orb to see if I can Blind Bassilus with it.

I can also go to the bassilisk map and, using Korax, level up Imoen so that I can dual her to mage. Then I can get her some spells. Although the only one that will really help at Mage 1 is Blind, and the Avenger can already cast that, essentially, with Chromatic Orb.

Edit: Actually, now that I think of it, if I had dualed Immy to mage first and had her cast Charm on the hobgobs to the west, then I could have gotten Bassilus to use up his spells on them. But unfortunately here I've already killed those enemies.

Lemernis

Re: the question I raised here about whether it's okay to carry a meta-killed forced-pair NPC to get him/her resurrected and parked... I think I'll just go ahead and add that as an option for the rules. It can always be removed or modified later as needed. Hopefully that option will give this minimal reload challenge some extra flavor.

I'm adding that if you if you want to temporarily remove a party member and park him or her somewhere in order to create a spell slot do this, that's okay.