What are you saying, exactly? Should the developers throw in a really really useless class just so that the weakest class is sufficiently weak? Or do you not like the definition of "weakest" : least strong element in a set (much like 9001 is the smallest number out of 9001, 9002 and 9 billion)? Should we change that definition to better match your preferences?
I mentioned that my thought was that a very weak party could tend to be all one class, especially all the same sub-class. This would be because they would pretty much be lacking the abilities of all the other classes, so they would be extremely unbalanced.
I gave the example of all Paladin Inquisitors since they would be without arcane magic, thief skills and almost all cleric spells. Though, I could so easily be wrong because they are tough warriors and negate magic. But, the more I thought about it, the more I starting thinking I would love to run that party just to see what happens. If they go down in a real doozy of a battle, it might look like Custer's last stand, or the Knight Templars in the east. Interesting the way discussing ideas here starts to stoke your imagination.
Are you saying that the fighter class is so great that with just hit points and specialization in a weapon type you're better than another class? What class is a Fallen Ranger or Fallen Paladin better than? Really, I would love to know which class is worse than something that's not even a class, but a lack of a class... Seriously, enlighten me.
While I agree with your points, I do think that in many ways the fighter class alone is pretty powerful. All the fighter variants have the ability to wear plate, good hitpoints and damage, weapon specialisation (2 stars at least), multiple attacks, a good thaco and some great high level abilities.
For me the weakest party would be something like a mixture of bard & thief subclasses (particularly ones without traps for cheese). No healing (other than potions), very little magic, no buffs, poor armor, no synergy, and their only really useful HLA is use any item (which admittedly is great - but they can't all share Carsomyr!). As soon as they run into anything that sees invis (e.g. a lich) they are going to feel pain.
Also, as @Tinter and @ambrennan 's posts imply, Weakest is something relative. It doesn't necessarily mean that the party cannot finish the game. It leads to so many interesting questions to explore.
What are you saying, exactly? Should the developers throw in a really really useless class just so that the weakest class is sufficiently weak? Or do you not like the definition of "weakest" : least strong element in a set (much like 9001 is the smallest number out of 9001, 9002 and 9 billion)? Should we change that definition to better match your preferences?
The thing is, there are kits that take rather big penalties without gaining much in return, ones such as the Beast Master, No metal weaponry or armor better than studded leather pretty much removes the melee abilies they would have as a ranger, in return they get at somewhat late levels the ability to use the summon animal spells which at that point will outside of random enemies only serve as meatshields for one or two hits at best rather than actually helping in a fight.
but weakest should be really weakest not like saying oh wizard slayer is weakest when he loses like a ring and amu or fallen ranger losing 1 spell and favored enemy
they are still 90% power at least and that is not weakest
Then what is the weakest? You have still not addressed that question. If a class that has lost all of its class abilities isn't the weakest class, what is weakest? You've done nothing in this thread but try to tell everyone they're wrong without providing any right answers yourself.
@karnor00 I would have to disagree. A fighter with 2 pips in a weapon and no other abilities will get trounced by a well-prepared thief or bard. But that's not really what the thread is about, it's about what's the weakest to go through the game with and I would still have to disagree with you. The HLA Use Anything means that Thieves can use wands and right there I think that's more powerful than what the Fallen Paladin brings to the table. Besides that, they do have trap cheese and backstabs (while not effective against some later enemies it's still more viable throughout the game then trying to mediocrely hack everything to death.) The Shadow Dancer kit is actually one of few that can solo Drizzt in the first game, I've yet to hear of anyone doing it with a Fallen Ranger.
Shapshifter is the weakest class for me... I love the class but it is irritating by not having found any good eq and weapon for my Shapeshifter... also it would have been wonderful to be able to turn into other races than just the werewolf.... would be nice if there were an option to turn into a weretiger,werelion, werefox, werepanter and so on....
@franco I think the question is more interesting to think of an answer for without repeats, but 6 of the same class is certainly the weakest.
6 beastmasters or 6 wizard slayers, which is worse? I might start a BG2 no reloads like that, would be interesting to see how they managed (especially if I ran with with SCS!).
but weakest should be really weakest not like saying oh wizard slayer is weakest when he loses like a ring and amu or fallen ranger losing 1 spell and favored enemy
they are still 90% power at least and that is not weakest
Then what is the weakest? You have still not addressed that question. If a class that has lost all of its class abilities isn't the weakest class, what is weakest? You've done nothing in this thread but try to tell everyone they're wrong without providing any right answers yourself.
Using the following "standard" party configuration (Tank, Off tank, Thief, Mage, Cleric, Archer/Support), and also using classes that can fill those roles (i.e., not casting a cavalier as an archer):
Tank: Halfling Kensai. While kensai has the best melee damage potential, you will have at best an AC of 2. Halfling means no 19 str. Off tank: Half Elf Beastmaster. Beastmaster is by far the weakest of all the "fighter based" kits. They can dual wield, but only with clubs. They can summon, but not in the BG:EE level limit. They are limited to leather armor. Their only bonus here really is find familiar, but not if they are not the Bhaalspawn. Thief: Dwarven Shadowdancer. Yes, shadowdancer can do that whole hide in plain sight thing, but not if they don't have the thief points to allocate to stealth. As the only thief in this party, the shadowdancer has to split 15 points per level to opening locks and finding traps, so it will be a long time before they are proficient enough in that area to invest in other skills. Additionally, Dwarf is probably the worst choice for a thief, since 17 max dex leaves them significantly lower in many areas than other thieves. Mage: Human Dragon Disciple. The Dragon Disciple has some interesting abilities, but they don't do anything to aid in the role of a back row caster. Plus, they lose out on what is most important for the primary spellcaster: spells per day. Cleric: Half Elf Shapeshifter. Again with the no armor thing, so not much help on the front lines. Werewolf form is not a huge boon, and comes in later in the game. Archer/Support: Human Vanilla Bard. Not enough spells per day to give much help to the Caster, not enough Thaco to make a huge help through arching, bard song does little but protect against Fear, and to top it all off, no armor if they want to cast spells (Elven Chain is only available through Dorn or cheating).
While this team is fully capable of surviving, I think it would be a challenge, particularly if attempting a minimal rest run.
but weakest should be really weakest not like saying oh wizard slayer is weakest when he loses like a ring and amu or fallen ranger losing 1 spell and favored enemy
they are still 90% power at least and that is not weakest
But when Wizard slayer and Fallen Ranger are at 90% power, and every other class is at 100%, that makes them the weakest ;D
I have always thought shapeshifters are the worst class in the game, followed by Wizard slayer. So obviously 6 of those would make a pretty awful team, but as for a balanced party, I dont know really. Very interesting question
I mentioned that my thought was that a very weak party could tend to be all one class, especially all the same sub-class. This would be because they would pretty much be lacking the abilities of all the other classes, so they would be extremely unbalanced.
I gave the example of all Paladin Inquisitors since they would be without arcane magic, thief skills and almost all cleric spells. Though, I could so easily be wrong because they are tough warriors and negate magic. But, the more I thought about it, the more I starting thinking I would love to run that party just to see what happens. If they go down in a real doozy of a battle, it might look like Custer's last stand, or the Knight Templars in the east. Interesting the way discussing ideas here starts to stoke your imagination.
@franco - for some reason, the Knight Templars comment is just making me think of a party of cavaliers- the class just seems perfect for RPing carrying on a lost cause (plus: weaker than inquisitors).
Despite initially talking about only one of each class, I'm getting really tempted to try a party of 6 Wizard Slayers in BG2 now...
you can go with bad fighters -wizard slayer -fallen paladin -fallen ranger bad thief -dwarf thief bad cleric or druid -shapeshifter bad mage -like diviner? (every class was named in this thread as weak)
and still be able to easily beat the game just changing tactics from charging like a mad with berserkers/barbarians to little slower like more summoning maybe some archers and crossbow user
is this team weak? i don't think so it is just nowhere near powerlevel of kensai/mages etc.
6 mages -- with a loadout of nothing but divination spells.
When they see their first rampaging horde of gibberlings at them, they open up with simultaneous castings of "Infrared Vision" --- pretty pretty glowing gibberlings...
It kinda depends on if you want to play the whole series with the team, or just BG1. Some classes like the Kensai/Monk/Swashbuckler get really good stats later on, but really have it hard in the beginning. These are all assuming decent roles, the only holding them back is the class itself.
If I was trying for a challenge I would pick these classes:
Wizard Slayer/Mage (locks out ability to learn spells from scrolls) (Dualled at 9 for THAC0/Saves/APR)
Jester (really the confusion has a small P.B.A.o.E. Try it sometime if feeling suicidal.)
Kensai with Spears. (my first character, I love spears. You think a two handed weapon should do 1-6 piercing, really? Good luck with that.) Note the Item re-balancing mod gives spears 1-8, and halberds 1-10 with an option to change to slashing, as befits a pole-arm.
Barbarian with Slings. (A great mental image.)
Avenger tank, with dual-wielded clubs. (No single weapon mastery for you, baby.)
Back-stab Bounty Hunter (Enjoy trying to get a good H.I.S/M.S with 20 points per level. Regular back-stab progression. Real men use daggers to back-stab with. 1-4 Piercing damage. Good luck with that. Oh, and the Dagger of Venom is a short-sword.
It kinda depends on if you want to play the whole series with the team, or just BG1. Some classes like the Kensai/Monk/Swashbuckler get really good stats later on, but really have it hard in the beginning. These are all assuming decent roles, the only holding them back is the class itself.
If I was trying for a challenge I would pick these classes:
Wizard Slayer/Mage (locks out ability to learn spells from scrolls) (Dualled at 9 for THAC0/Saves/APR)
Jester (really the confusion has a small P.B.A.o.E. Try it sometime if feeling suicidal.)
Kensai with Spears. (my first character, I love spears. You think a two handed weapon should do 1-6 piercing, really? Good luck with that.) Note the Item re-balancing mod gives spears 1-8, and halberds 1-10 with an option to change to slashing, as befits a pole-arm.
Barbarian with Slings. (A great mental image.)
Avenger tank, with dual-wielded clubs. (No single weapon mastery for you, baby.)
Back-stab Bounty Hunter (Enjoy trying to get a good H.I.S/M.S with 20 points per level. Regular back-stab progression. Real men use daggers to back-stab with. 1-4 Piercing damage. Good luck with that. Oh, and the Dagger of Venom is a short-sword.
Yeah.
Just my two cents.
~Ascerion
wizard slayer/mage can learn from scrolls jester is really powerfull even in bg2 not mentioning bg1 levels
other characters are made bad because you made them bad not because they are. As stated in thread pick weakest party and make it possibly the best not the worst
wizard slayer/mage can learn from scrolls jester is really powerfull even in bg2 not mentioning bg1 levels
other characters are made bad because you made them bad not because they are. As stated in thread pick weakest party and make it possibly the best not the worst
The WS/M can only learn from scrolls after he is dualled, which, if ideally done at level 9, means no scrolls until BG2.
Vanilla Jester's range for his bard song is 30 feet. That is really short for a character that can't wear anything but robes and still cast spells. Enemies also get a +4 to save against the confusion effect, which is pretty bad, IMO.
True that I picked bad specializations for the characters, but that's the point. Just showing that even the best kits can be weak if not configured optimally. I could have said Fallen Ranger, Paladin, etc... but I wanted to add some new thoughts and ideas to the thread.
wizard slayer/mage can learn from scrolls jester is really powerfull even in bg2 not mentioning bg1 levels
other characters are made bad because you made them bad not because they are. As stated in thread pick weakest party and make it possibly the best not the worst
The WS/M can only learn from scrolls after he is dualled, which, if ideally done at level 9, means no scrolls until BG2.
Vanilla Jester's range for his bard song is 30 feet. That is really short for a character that can't wear anything but robes and still cast spells. Enemies also get a +4 to save against the confusion effect, which is pretty bad, IMO.
True that I picked bad specializations for the characters, but that's the point. Just showing that even the best kits can be weak if not configured optimally. I could have said Fallen Ranger, Paladin, etc... but I wanted to add some new thoughts and ideas to the thread.
What about, the weakest classes? Whats the worst possible multiplayer party without repeating any classes? Note I'm assuming that after selecting the class you still try to make the character optimised- obviously all 3s is going to be the weakest possible in theory, but thats not very interesting.
Comments
Or do you not like the definition of "weakest" : least strong element in a set (much like 9001 is the smallest number out of 9001, 9002 and 9 billion)? Should we change that definition to better match your preferences?
I gave the example of all Paladin Inquisitors since they would be without arcane magic, thief skills and almost all cleric spells. Though, I could so easily be wrong because they are tough warriors and negate magic. But, the more I thought about it, the more I starting thinking I would love to run that party just to see what happens. If they go down in a real doozy of a battle, it might look like Custer's last stand, or the Knight Templars in the east. Interesting the way discussing ideas here starts to stoke your imagination.
For me the weakest party would be something like a mixture of bard & thief subclasses (particularly ones without traps for cheese). No healing (other than potions), very little magic, no buffs, poor armor, no synergy, and their only really useful HLA is use any item (which admittedly is great - but they can't all share Carsomyr!). As soon as they run into anything that sees invis (e.g. a lich) they are going to feel pain.
@karnor00 I would have to disagree. A fighter with 2 pips in a weapon and no other abilities will get trounced by a well-prepared thief or bard. But that's not really what the thread is about, it's about what's the weakest to go through the game with and I would still have to disagree with you. The HLA Use Anything means that Thieves can use wands and right there I think that's more powerful than what the Fallen Paladin brings to the table. Besides that, they do have trap cheese and backstabs (while not effective against some later enemies it's still more viable throughout the game then trying to mediocrely hack everything to death.) The Shadow Dancer kit is actually one of few that can solo Drizzt in the first game, I've yet to hear of anyone doing it with a Fallen Ranger.
6 beastmasters or 6 wizard slayers, which is worse? I might start a BG2 no reloads like that, would be interesting to see how they managed (especially if I ran with with SCS!).
Change your portrait to this @zur312:
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It will fit your behavior better, and will serve as a warning for the unaware.
Tank: Halfling Kensai. While kensai has the best melee damage potential, you will have at best an AC of 2. Halfling means no 19 str.
Off tank: Half Elf Beastmaster. Beastmaster is by far the weakest of all the "fighter based" kits. They can dual wield, but only with clubs. They can summon, but not in the BG:EE level limit. They are limited to leather armor. Their only bonus here really is find familiar, but not if they are not the Bhaalspawn.
Thief: Dwarven Shadowdancer. Yes, shadowdancer can do that whole hide in plain sight thing, but not if they don't have the thief points to allocate to stealth. As the only thief in this party, the shadowdancer has to split 15 points per level to opening locks and finding traps, so it will be a long time before they are proficient enough in that area to invest in other skills. Additionally, Dwarf is probably the worst choice for a thief, since 17 max dex leaves them significantly lower in many areas than other thieves.
Mage: Human Dragon Disciple. The Dragon Disciple has some interesting abilities, but they don't do anything to aid in the role of a back row caster. Plus, they lose out on what is most important for the primary spellcaster: spells per day.
Cleric: Half Elf Shapeshifter. Again with the no armor thing, so not much help on the front lines. Werewolf form is not a huge boon, and comes in later in the game.
Archer/Support: Human Vanilla Bard. Not enough spells per day to give much help to the Caster, not enough Thaco to make a huge help through arching, bard song does little but protect against Fear, and to top it all off, no armor if they want to cast spells (Elven Chain is only available through Dorn or cheating).
While this team is fully capable of surviving, I think it would be a challenge, particularly if attempting a minimal rest run.
I have always thought shapeshifters are the worst class in the game, followed by Wizard slayer. So obviously 6 of those would make a pretty awful team, but as for a balanced party, I dont know really. Very interesting question
Despite initially talking about only one of each class, I'm getting really tempted to try a party of 6 Wizard Slayers in BG2 now...
you can go with bad fighters
-wizard slayer
-fallen paladin
-fallen ranger
bad thief
-dwarf thief
bad cleric or druid
-shapeshifter
bad mage
-like diviner?
(every class was named in this thread as weak)
and still be able to easily beat the game just changing tactics from charging like a mad with berserkers/barbarians to little slower like more summoning maybe some archers and crossbow user
is this team weak? i don't think so it is just nowhere near powerlevel of kensai/mages etc.
Bard
Druid
Beastmaster
Bounty Hunter
Invoker
could be made to work just fine, but that strikes me as one of the weaker balanced parties to field.
When they see their first rampaging horde of gibberlings at them, they open up with simultaneous castings of "Infrared Vision" --- pretty pretty glowing gibberlings...
If I was trying for a challenge I would pick these classes:
Wizard Slayer/Mage (locks out ability to learn spells from scrolls) (Dualled at 9 for THAC0/Saves/APR)
Jester (really the confusion has a small P.B.A.o.E. Try it sometime if feeling suicidal.)
Kensai with Spears. (my first character, I love spears. You think a two handed weapon should do 1-6 piercing, really? Good luck with that.) Note the Item re-balancing mod gives spears 1-8, and halberds 1-10 with an option to change to slashing, as befits a pole-arm.
Barbarian with Slings. (A great mental image.)
Avenger tank, with dual-wielded clubs. (No single weapon mastery for you, baby.)
Back-stab Bounty Hunter (Enjoy trying to get a good H.I.S/M.S with 20 points per level. Regular back-stab progression. Real men use daggers to back-stab with. 1-4 Piercing damage. Good luck with that. Oh, and the Dagger of Venom is a short-sword.
Yeah.
Just my two cents.
~Ascerion
jester is really powerfull even in bg2 not mentioning bg1 levels
other characters are made bad because you made them bad not because they are. As stated in thread pick weakest party and make it possibly the best not the worst
Vanilla Jester's range for his bard song is 30 feet. That is really short for a character that can't wear anything but robes and still cast spells. Enemies also get a +4 to save against the confusion effect, which is pretty bad, IMO.
True that I picked bad specializations for the characters, but that's the point. Just showing that even the best kits can be weak if not configured optimally. I could have said Fallen Ranger, Paladin, etc... but I wanted to add some new thoughts and ideas to the thread.
~Ascerion
Vanilla Jester's range for his bard song is 30 feet. That is really short for a character that can't wear anything but robes and still cast spells. Enemies also get a +4 to save against the confusion effect, which is pretty bad, IMO.
True that I picked bad specializations for the characters, but that's the point. Just showing that even the best kits can be weak if not configured optimally. I could have said Fallen Ranger, Paladin, etc... but I wanted to add some new thoughts and ideas to the thread.
~Ascerion
this