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Please make up your mind about CHARNAMES mother

MystraMystra Member Posts: 11
edited July 2012 in Archive (Feature Requests)
I am not sure if anyone else has bought this up, but this has been a constant issue for me.

As you may remember, when we nosed through all of Gorions stuff we found a letter claiming your mother was raped, and died in childbirth, your father is Bhaal - sucks to be you.

Then of course, throne of Bhaal fucked this all up (Sorry, but ToB messed up SO many plot points) - And in ToB it was 'your mom was a dirty dirty whore who slept with bhaal and tried to sacrifice you so I killed her and took you home!'

I would really like it, if there was maybe some sort of fix for this - I think we all settled with the fact Gorion told a 'little white lie' but at the end of the day, the little white lie was pointless - was our mother raped, or was she a dirty whore - And Imoen - Why was she treated so different ? Does Gorion get off on testing on Bhaalspawns - I feel it would be a great time to tie up some Loose ends that both SoA and ToB made,
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Comments

  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Ive always considered TOB to be incredibly weak, and not a fitting end to the bg series. I have always ignored all its lore and assumed the bg ends with the defeat of irenicus
  • MystraMystra Member Posts: 11
    I totally agree - I still want to know who the seven robed men were at the end of SoA - never revealed :( - But since ToB IS there, it would be nice to... smooth it out, even a little.... It's like the snotty nosed spoiled brother that you just can't get rid off, but put him in a nice suit... and maybe people will not notice he's so bad *giggle*
  • MedillenMedillen Member Posts: 632
    @Mystra the seven robed men were meant to be the baalspawn of ToB methinks. As for charname mother... well the two sides are a lot opposed. But I don't know who actually has the authority to decide of what is canon. BeamDog can't change important informations ingame, and that is probably one of those :)
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    As I see it, the writers didn't really think of all the story too fast. They made up some minor modifications to make more sense. Besides, there is no confirmation whatsoever, or any sign that Imoen would be also a Bhaalspawn. That is, until Spellhold in SoA.

    Those cowled dudes could be just about anyone. Leaders of the Twisted Rune? Some kind of secret society that deals with godly powers? Harpers? God knows really. Probably Bhaalspawns, since the table they are sitting at resembles Bhaal's symbol no? But still it's not too clear. For example, take the guy that says "but can we be so sure?" - he sounds like he's just a projection. And his voice for some reason resembles Tethtoril from Candlekeep. But if we look just voice-wise then one of the guys is Male Shepard anyway XD


    Besides, I believe that Throne of Bhaal was initially supposed to be Baldur's Gate 3 in the first place (I might be wrong, but I think I heard Gaider say so on the BioWare forums in the past), so there ought to be some plot holes I guess?
  • g314g314 Member Posts: 201
    edited July 2012
    Cheesebelly said:

    As I see it, the writers didn't really think of all the story too fast. They made up some minor modifications to make more sense. Besides, there is no confirmation whatsoever, or any sign that Imoen would be also a Bhaalspawn. That is, until Spellhold in SoA.

    One more thing that made me think BG2 took a different direction of what it was planned when BG1 shipped. I actually liked that Imoen 'became' a Bhaalspawn, especially when I learned she was supposed to die if the fans didn't tell BioWare to reconsider. Thank God they listened! (Source: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Headscratchers/BaldursGate)

    I hope Overhaul will consider some Imoen (and not just her) banters in BG1EE as she was really silent throughout the original game. Hopefully they will retain her natural cheerfulness (yes, even in BG2EE)! =)
    Cheesebelly said:

    Those cowled dudes could be just about anyone. Leaders of the Twisted Rune? Some kind of secret society that deals with godly powers? Harpers? God knows really. Probably Bhaalspawns, since the table they are sitting at resembles Bhaal's symbol no? But still it's not too clear. For example, take the guy that says "but can we be so sure?" - he sounds like he's just a projection. And his voice for some reason resembles Tethtoril from Candlekeep. But if we look just voice-wise then one of the guys is Male Shepard anyway XD

    I too think they're Bhaalspawns, but how about Yaga-Shura? I don't see anybody that would resemble a fire giant in that scene. ToB seemed kind of a rushed game IMO, and that's a shame.

    Now that you mention it, Tethtoril and other important characters from BG1 such as Duke Eltan, Winski (Sarevok's mentor) and partly Tamoko were never referred to again, and I think they do deserve some more backstory in BG2EE. Elminster and Volo also did very little in BG2 than in BG1.
    Cheesebelly said:

    Besides, I believe that Throne of Bhaal was initially supposed to be Baldur's Gate 3 in the first place (I might be wrong, but I think I heard Gaider say so on the BioWare forums in the past), so there ought to be some plot holes I guess?

    Overhaul is planning to make BG3 in the future, though I think the BG saga closed well with ToB, but then again, I couldn't but feel a little disappointed with the feeling that it was rushed and then shipped as an EP to SoA. A BG3EE - ToB would be great, but I highly doubt it will ever be this way.

  • MystraMystra Member Posts: 11
    @g314

    I absolutely loved that link, laughed a lot! totally agree with all said



    --

    I did wonder that this might be one of those things they couldn't change, but no harm in asking, right?


    I sometimes hope bioware will go "shit, we fucked up - sorry guys consider ToB a very outdated april fools and we'll remake the 3rd game" - But I doubt it - It was a very poor attempt - The fact the moment I got to the first city I said "Ok that redhead chick is evil" just screams bad


    I remember when I figured out sarevok was my brother - I must have been drunk not to figure it out before, but I was like OH EM GEEEEE PLOT TWIST *gasp* - THATS how a story should be, I was on the edge of my seat!


    I also agree, Imoen was so quiet in the first game - Then suddenly became a major character in the second, whilst I do love Imoen it was quite hard to take in.


    :( Wish the writers put some thought into it. The first game was breathtaking with the plot- then slowly got worse...and worse....

    then out came the Ps2/Xbox edition! *vomit*
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    @Mystra : Oh yeah, Dark Alliance... that was... well, no-comment worthy I guess. Too bad that the name was taken back then and tainted the whole series, although some people still consider them to be good games. I don't!

    Supposedly, one of the adventures in BGEE might be a connection between BG1 and BG2 (or maybe just a story related to the Bhaalspawn). We'll have to wait and see though.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    I loved the Dark Alliance games.
  • shout27shout27 Member Posts: 89
    edited July 2012
    Cheesebelly said:


    Cheesebelly said:

    Besides, I believe that Throne of Bhaal was initially supposed to be Baldur's Gate 3 in the first place (I might be wrong, but I think I heard Gaider say so on the BioWare forums in the past), so there ought to be some plot holes I guess?

    Overhaul is planning to make BG3 in the future, though I think the BG saga closed well with ToB, but then again, I couldn't but feel a little disappointed with the feeling that it was rushed and then shipped as an EP to SoA. A BG3EE - ToB would be great, but I highly doubt it will ever be this way.

    I'm kind of torn, on the one hand I want to see BG+PS:T combine and the NO and our PC (Bhallspawn) work together to escape the Blood War and travel the planes along the way. (PC because somewhere in there he got deposed as a god and is merely something more than mortal for the time being and NO is already something else)

    On the other hand, I also want to see more of the forgotten realms, not only being able to travel at will among all the areas available to date from BG-ToB, but having seriously large portions of the game taking place in Calimport and Waterdeep. . .
  • HeroicSpurHeroicSpur Member Posts: 907
    Firstly I agree with the OP about the importance of continuity. I also agree ToB was pretty poor, the fact that I could tell almost immediately who the main baddie was probably wasn't good either (I never really understood how they were even remotely as powerful as Charname anyway).

    Secondly, it's easy to think of ToB having wrapped everything up and thus find it difficult to see where BG3 would come in, but the game doesn't necessarily have to follow on. If it did you could have a planescape style game with the CHARNAME as a god, and your party consisting of celestial beings. Or you could do something quite different, like having a prequal (maybe with the PC as an ally of Gorion, ultimately participating in the raid outlined by the OP), or simply a game set in the same time period with a different character (bhaalspawn or not), which criss-crosses (to a greater of lesser extent) the BG storyline.

  • ScooterScooter Member Posts: 182
    edited July 2012
    you guys should check out this thread http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/101/priests-of-bhaal-in-bg-2-spoiler-warning/p2 especially when @PhillipDaigle starts giving a bit of insight
  • MathuzzzMathuzzz Member Posts: 203
    Medillen said:

    @Mystra the seven robed men were meant to be the baalspawn of ToB methinks. As for charname mother... well the two sides are a lot opposed. But I don't know who actually has the authority to decide of what is canon. BeamDog can't change important informations ingame, and that is probably one of those :)

    I don´t think they were Bhaalspawn. It doesn´t make sence. Why there would be brotherhood without you when you are one of them. Also there were lots of Bhaalspawn and there were just few in the scene and they didn´t know each other and had their own individual rise to power.
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    @Scooter : Thanks for the link, that really helps solve a mystery that was in my head for ages now! :D
  • WinthalWinthal Member Posts: 366
    Mystra said:

    I totally agree - I still want to know who the seven robed men were at the end of SoA - never revealed :(

    @Mystra Obviously, the robed men at the end of SoA were the Bioware staff writers, plotting the next big twist in the series... I thought it was obvious since all Bioware employees have to wear robes to work (and their offices are located down in a dank basement under one of the doctors homes).
  • g314g314 Member Posts: 201
    edited July 2012
    Mathuzzz said:

    Medillen said:

    @Mystra the seven robed men were meant to be the baalspawn of ToB methinks. As for charname mother... well the two sides are a lot opposed. But I don't know who actually has the authority to decide of what is canon. BeamDog can't change important informations ingame, and that is probably one of those :)

    I don´t think they were Bhaalspawn. It doesn´t make sence. Why there would be brotherhood without you when you are one of them. Also there were lots of Bhaalspawn and there were just few in the scene and they didn´t know each other and had their own individual rise to power.
    The only logical Bhaalspawn I can see sitting there with the robed men would be Balthazar. He orchestrated a quite mischievous plan which made you go crush-assaulting Sendai and Abazigal's lairs (didn't quite like the way it went, but whatever). About the other guys... I don't know, a secret organization like the Zhents or the Twisted Rune devoted solely to the destruction of all Bhaalspawns? Who knows?

    I want to analyze a couple of quotes from SoA ending movie:

    http://www.youtube.com/embed/Pf9kleGOupc

    "We should've acted long before now." How about some sorcerer/lich/whatever on their behalf to be encountered in BG1 and BG2 to add more consistency to ToB? Of course plausible and solid dialogs are to be implemented. I find it hard to believe CHARNAME was simply a nuisance to them. Sarevok sent tons of mercenaries to kill the PC in BG1, why didn't they?

    "This spawn of Bhaal is doomed. There is no escape." implies that they were damn sure CHARNAME won't have any chances of survival in ToB (which to me still weakens the assaults to Sendai and Abazigal plot wise...). But like they said "Gorion's ward has become too powerful." which implies that he/she's still a threat to their plans. And what about Imoen?
  • CommunardCommunard Member Posts: 556
    I always assumed they are the head monks of Balthazar's monestary when they were in the early stages of planning the destruction of all Bhaalspawn, and the agenda had just turned to CHARNAME. Having said that little bit of rationalisation I do think that TOB is *definitely* the part of the series most in need of an EE, while I appreciate the effort that went into it, the number of times where you can see the developers didn't have time to finish it properly is just embarrassing. It lacks any of the polish of the rest of the series, and sacrificed any pretense of not being a railroad. I would dream of a complete reworking which added many other paths to take, removing the magic plot door from the Pocket Plane and actually having to expend effort to get to where you want to go would be a start. I would love to be able to save Saradush or confront Balthazar before the rest of the Five. Would add a lot of replayabilty. They do also need to clear up a lot of the lore, I do actually like some of the revelations about CHARNAME's past but (again) it needs polish.
  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    If you talk to the barmaid at the Friendly Arm Inn, I believe she said that the Inn used to be a temple to Bhaal (at least 'some evil god') before Bentley and Gelena cleared it out. With the background story from ToB about your mother being part of the Bhaal cult that was going to sacrifice you, I immediately made it head-canon that Gorion and Bentley were partymembers of the adventuring party that cleared out the Inn. Bentley kept the building, Gorion took care of the children.

    That made it a little easier to bear the sudden change in story, even though it's most probably unintended.

    I do really hate the addition of Mellissan though. Wrote something about that in another thread, some time ago, but for all I care they cut her out completely, she was the most transparent villain I've seen in a game so far (aside from the first HK-50 in KotOR2, but that was intended). Her lack of credible background, forshadowing, good voiceacting or proper introduction didn't do her any favors either. I'd rather have the sentient Bhaal-essence fighting me than some random ex-cleric of Bhaal who decided she should be god.
  • g314g314 Member Posts: 201
    Communard said:

    I do think that TOB is *definitely* the part of the series most in need of an EE, while I appreciate the effort that went into it, the number of times where you can see the developers didn't have time to finish it properly is just embarrassing. It lacks any of the polish of the rest of the series, and sacrificed any pretense of not being a railroad.

    snip

    They do also need to clear up a lot of the lore, I do actually like some of the revelations about CHARNAME's past but (again) it needs polish.

    Aye, I totally agree with this. For some reason I found ToB to be some sort of a 'black sheep' to the whole series that sometimes I couldn't but think that someone else outside BioWare developed it.

    It started with your humble origins in Candlekeep, doing your survival business with Sarevok and Irenicus, and then... BAM... all of the sudden we got a war, we save the day in less than a couple of months and everyone lived happily ever after. Perfectly fine if it wasn't for this fast-paced feeling like BW devs were so in a hurry to wrap it all up while stuffing your party with tons of 'shiny ones' that for some reason were all conveniently hoarded in Tethyr and in an isolated town in the middle of nowhere. Makes me wonder if magic craftspeople and dragons were allergic to the Sword Coast area.
    Communard said:

    I would dream of a complete reworking which added many other paths to take, removing the magic plot door from the Pocket Plane and actually having to expend effort to get to where you want to go would be a start. I would love to be able to save Saradush or confront Balthazar before the rest of the Five. Would add a lot of replayabilty.

    I'm not sure changing crucial parts to the plot would be of any help. Actually I think there's more to add than take out, IMO. What really bothered me in ToB were these plot holes and how Chapter 9 (after you defeat Yaga-Shura) was written. I'm sorry, but this was feeling more like a mindless hack-n-slash FPS than a strategic RPG I was accustomed with.

    Oh, and let's not forget that almost anyone in Chapter 8 was hurled at your merciless fury, whether they liked it or not. Paraphrasing Imoen "Poor sods..."

    Yeah, it does need rework. And it does NOT need to be a simple expansion pack.
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    Seeing as how those 7 guys speak, it almost makes you think that the whole plot of SoA - Irenicus, the Illithids, Firkraag, Shadow Lord, etc, was all planned by them, to eliminate off the PC Bhaalspawn. I am not really sure what BioWare had in mind when they made ToB. I agree it's the black sheep of the series, but keep also in mind that as an expansion, it's better than 99% of the things released out there today.

    Besides that, I can't really consider ToB an expansion alone. Because it's much more related to the bhaalspawn plot than SoA ever was.

    Now the question is - how would one "fix" ToB to make it better than a simple ending to a great adventure? How would you fix the plot holes with the PC's mother and other inconsistencies?

    Well, Oster told that he is fascinated by the Time of Troubles. I guess that would be a good way to fix the plot holes. But what about BG2EE? I don't know, maybe throw some bhaalspawn to hunt the PC earlier than defeating Irenicus? For example, Illasera or whatever was the name of the first of the five, is weak. VERY weak. Why not simply have her ambush the PC somewhere in the Underdark already? I don't know, it's just an idea.

    Fixing the PC's mother would be MUCH MUCH more complicated.
  • mch202mch202 Member Posts: 1,455
    @g314 it seems that ToB took example from his bad brother IWD.. they sure do used a spirit level in order to make this expansion! I finished it only to say that I finished the saga.
  • g314g314 Member Posts: 201
    edited July 2012
    @mch202 Didn't play IWD. Too spin-off...ish and too hack-n-slash to me. Also, I miss party banter.

    @Cheesebelly Illasera and other minor Bhaalspawns in SoA (ala Sarevok's mercenaries) wouldn't be such a bad idea, but I'm afraid it's too far-fetched to Overhaul's plans to deliver an EE. I would really like it, though.
  • WolfheartWolfheart Member Posts: 170
    Well, for Gorion's statements about the PC's mother, why would they need to be identical? Would you tell your child that its mother intended to sacrifice you to ressurect its master? That would be a very traumatic thing to tell the child and as the PC's mother is dead, there's no risk of her influencing you. However, when Gorion is called in the pocket plane, not only has the PC matured a lot more, Gorion might be forced by the Solar (or by being in the pocket plane) to tell the truth.

    Dear Charname, you are the son of the evil Bhaal and your mother is a whore cleric of Bhaal with your only function being to revive Bhaal...

    Riiight. Its one thing to tell that to a PC who's experienced all kinds of horrors (Irenicus et. al.), quite another to tell it to someone who's doesn't know their role in the whole circus. Then again, maybe Gorion is evil and a bad parrent so his first letter is out of character for him...
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    @Wolfheart : not to tell that you're wrong, because you aren't at all, I agree on all the points, but I think that the PC knows by the end game of BG1 that he was supposed to be fuel to reviving Bhaal. At least I gather so much by the dialogue with Sarevok and the intro to Shadows of Amn. I guess it could be related to Alaundo's prophecies?
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    @Wolfheart I don't think I'd tell my adopted child in a letter "I slept with your mom a few times" either. I don't think Gorion is the kind to have lied, being a Good aligned Character and all.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited July 2012
    To me these are members (people sitting at the table in the movie at the end of SOA) of an order of Bhaal worshipers that for whatever reason we never come across. Given that your mother was one of them, it is reasonable to assume that there could be Bhaal worshipers elsewhere who were aware of your identity (besides its not as if Amaunator didn't manage to keep worshipers despite being dead according to the lore at the time of the games creation). Perhaps they are working on behalf of Amelyssan and don't realise her true intentions. The fact that we don't really know is actually one of the things I like about the game. There are plenty of groups by the end that could have an interest in seeing you dead, though only a few would probably have that unique choice for their tables decoration.
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    Still, I find it odd that Gorion took on your mother as a lover. When I played that and got the note gfor the first time way back when, I was a Dwarf. That made my head tilt just a bit more than 110 degrees of angle.
  • Syntia13Syntia13 Member Posts: 514
    Drugar said:

    I'd rather have the sentient Bhaal-essence fighting me than some random ex-cleric of Bhaal who decided she should be god.

    Now that idea I find extremely interesting! It would be heaps better to find that Mellissan was in fact an avatar created by the Bhaal-essence that tried to become its own creature. It could explain why Mel was always so inconveniently disappearing whenever I tried to talk to her and couldn't be found anywhere - she literally disappeared, as the Bhaal-essence stopped projecting her. And then she would pop up again in a completely different place (like Balthazar's monastery) with no apparent effort - well, of course she did! And she grew more powerful as the game progressed, because more and more bhaalspawn were killed and their strengths 'returned to the pool'.
    It would add a certain moral dilemma to destroying her. When she is just a power-crazed human with overreaching ambitions its easy to just go all 'kill the b***!'. But if it is a new, relatively young entity struggling for survival - well, I at least would hesitate before goddifying myself at the cost of its demise.
    After the final battle, there could be three options instead of just two:
    1 - you become a god, Mellissan dies
    2 - you remain a mortal, Mellissan dies
    3 - you donate your power to Mellissan, you remain a mortal, she becomes a god, and let her duke it out with Cyric. :P
  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    Dazzu said:

    Still, I find it odd that Gorion took on your mother as a lover. When I played that and got the note gfor the first time way back when, I was a Dwarf. That made my head tilt just a bit more than 110 degrees of angle.

    You haven't been with a real woman if you haven't been with a dwarf woman. Endless constitution, short limbs and body hair *everywhere*.

    Awww yeeeah.

  • gesellegeselle Member Posts: 325
    Existing content cannot be changed. And your mother and Gorion being lovers ist just unbelievable. Bhaal had loads of followers. Why bother raping a mere human, when you can create legions of human beings ready to be slaughtered in your name? A raped woman wouldn't readily sacrifice her child to revive the being who did this to her.
  • MystraMystra Member Posts: 11
    Drugar said:


    .
    After the final battle, there could be three options instead of just two:
    1 - you become a god, Mellissan dies
    2 - you remain a mortal, Mellissan dies
    3 - you donate your power to Mellissan, you remain a mortal, she becomes a god, and let her duke it out with Cyric. :P


    But Mellissan is fucking batshit crazy, she'd just delete the world for shits and giggles, redheads and their endless anger and all
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