Fallen Monks and Priests

Unferth

Certain classes that require good alignment (viz., ranger and paladin) also require that one's reputation remain above a certain level, below which the character becomes fallen and loses abilities. Should other classes follow suit?

I'm thinking of the monk and priest kits. Someone with a higher lore ability than mine should jump in if I'm wrong, but I take fallenness to mean that one is out of favor with one's patron deity and/or experiencing some kind of crippling identity crisis, either of which might also get one ostracized by fellow class members. It seems to me, then, that priests of Lathander who are too evil should lose the special abilities granted by their kit, and perhaps even their casting ability, since it's bestowed by the god. As recompense, they might be offered one opportunity to take the Talos kit (and its alignment) as a new convert.

The opposite needn't be true of priests of Talos because, as has been noted elsewhere, evil characters can use the appearance of goodness (i.e., high reputation) to evil ends. Still, it's conceivable that an evil priest could have a change of heart and receive an offer of patronage from another deity. The offer could be accepted or rejected as role-playing requires, though of course the latter option assumes a god can be fooled....

(I know there's an ongoing conversation about the possibility of regaining one's class after falling, and that seems a fine idea. But I also think, given the varied and striving pantheon we encounter in the game, that having a chance to switch sides--a paladin becoming a blackguard, say, in medias res--would be a realistic option, too.)

I'm less clear about monks' relationship to the gods--their skills seem a mix of personal training and divine benefaction--but I think the above explanations justify treating monk kits in more or less the same way. Their abilities surely rely on "having it together" at the very least, and a troubled soul (sun or otherwise) would presumably compromise both their focus and their standing in a monastic order.

Thoughts?

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franco

I also think it is an interesting idea especially for clerics. A Good cleric with a reputation that has fallen too low, might be forced to leave his order (specialty sub-class). Conversely, an Evil cleric whose reputation has risen too high.

Iecerint

I think this should only be implemented if the entire reputation/morality system is overhauled. I think the influence of the reputation system on the game should be minimized if it is left in its current state.

The concept of advantages/penalties based on reasonable RPing is something that attracts me, though.

bbear

Sometimes, a good priest may choose to lower his reputation so that he can infiltrate the bad guys. It's like a good cop going undercover of an evil organization. He needs to act evil without drawing suspicion.

Unferth

Very true, @bbear--good point. Still (and maybe this is what @Iecerint was getting at), the reputation system as it is now requires you to do some fairly awful things if you want a lower rep--especially a low enough rep to seem evil; things no good character would do for any reason. I'm not sure how the game mechanics could accommodate the sophisticated motives you're describing (if only!). It's left to us to imagine, for example, how a high-reputation party can pose as bandit recruits, or to RP the impossibility. In any case, a good cleric would surely invest in a good disguise, or a good illusionist, before bludgeoning people in the streets. Maybe there's just not an elegant way to model all the possibilities.

karnor00

Monks only need to be lawful, and right now there is no way to change the law/chaos part of your alignment in BG2.

Considering aspects outside of the game, then I'd think if monks stopped becoming lawful, then they would lose the focus required for the amazing abilities they have. I guess becoming similar to a fallen paladin/ranger (i.e. basically fighters with no special abilities).

Unferth

@karnor00 The unkitted monk can be of any lawful alignment, it's true, so I suspect you're right that there's no way for them to fall under current game rules. (And I definitely agree that, theoretically, a move toward chaos should disrupt the monk's abilities. Maybe BG could measure chaos by "excessive" swings in reputation?) But the EE kits require you to be either good or evil. Given that certain good-only classes, at least, can lose their class attributes through the rep system, I'm just wondering why some other classes don't adhere to a concept that's already in the game.

karnor00

Unferth said:

@karnor00 The unkitted monk can be of any lawful alignment, it's true, so I suspect you're right that there's no way for them to fall under current game rules. (And I definitely agree that, theoretically, a move toward chaos should disrupt the monk's abilities. Maybe BG could measure chaos by "excessive" swings in reputation?) But the EE kits require you to be either good or evil. Given that certain good-only classes, at least, can lose their class attributes through the rep system, I'm just wondering why some other classes don't adhere to a concept that's already in the game.

That's true, I'd forgotten the new EE kit monks. I guess if they change alignment then they should become similar to unkitted monks, but lose any special/modified abilties (without regaining any unktited monk ones they lost).

e.g. if stunning blow got replaced by chill strike (or whatever it's called) then they would lose chill strike but not get back stunning blow. So sort of becoming a fallen monk.

Talarasha

I think that "fallen" status should be more customizable. Personally I wish the BG1-style behaviour of this feature.

karnor00 said:

Monks only need to be lawful, and right now there is no way to change the law/chaos part of your alignment in BG2.

There is a way, actually. In original BG2, without mods, your alignment switches to Neutral Evil (always NE, not Chaotic and not Lawful) after getting the Black Razor blade.