invisibility and spell protections (no-reload, SCS, SI:abjuration/divination etc.)

Ygramul

I had BG (and BGII+ToB) since they were out in the last century, playing only no-reload, and lately, only with SCS. I finished BG successfully several times, but never BGII on no-reload.

Almost always what kills you is a mage -- more often than not an improved invisible mage, covered in a (Minor) Globe of Invulnerability, along with Mirror Images (and in BGII with SCS also SI:Abjuration/Divination etc.).

I usually keep a dedicated anti-caster (or become one myself, like a sorcerer with mage-battle spells).

*Question*:
In vanilla, spell protection removers were useless against (improved) invisible enemies -- which SCS permits to modify, by letting removal spells target invisible mages (or give them area of effect). Is this still the case?


Related question: Is SCS currently stable on BGEE? How about on MacOS?


(I used to play on a Mac/Wine installation of BGTutu with SCS, but would like to purchase BGEE to support the project, if it has matured enough yet -- well balanced mage-battles with invisible/spell protection balancing is therefore a must for me before I switch...)

lunar

One or two components have hiccups, but most of the SCS mod works well on BG:EE. Spell protection removals work as intended if you install that component that gives them area effect.

You can visit the SCS thread on Modding section for details.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/16019/sword-coast-stratagems-now-available-in-beta-for-bgee/p7

I myself play BG:EE with SCS on Ipad and am very pleased with the results. You can read about how and the results here:

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/16695/amazing-discovery-overriding-cre-files-without-override-folder-and-jailbreak/p1

I can say that, once I get used to the enhancements brought by the BG:EE, (better graphics, zoom, spell effects, new npcs, no load time, colorful selection circles and damage text, etc) I can not return to old BGT game, even though it has more mods and content to play. Scs is all I really need to make the game challenging enough. And being able to play it on the go with Ipad is wonderful! Not to mention new content and kits brought by the patches, and possibility of more content in the future. And the feeling of being a part of an active project about my all time favourite pc game.

I do not own a mac so I can't speak about it truly, you may ask around in the Mac forum about scs, too.

Ygramul

Awesome. Thanks.

Do you think the current game (including new content) is now well-balanced for a no-reload game?

(I have heard, e.g., horror stories about a no-reload party being wiped out in Cloakwood by chain-lighting and chaos from a druid (must be a lvl 11+ avenger) -- too damn steep for a lvl 5-6 party.)

zur312

improved invisibility doesn't really deflect dispells

if he is deflecting dispells with spell immunity just use true sight
if he is deflecting true sight cast dispell
Liches? well ;D

you should record this no-reload games

Ygramul said:

Awesome. Thanks.

Do you think the current game (including new content) is now well-balanced for a no-reload game?

(I have heard, e.g., horror stories about a no-reload party being wiped out in Cloakwood by chain-lighting and chaos from a druid (must be a lvl 11+ avenger) -- too damn steep for a lvl 5-6 party.)

that is so cool
my party was wiped in ulcaster by wail of banshee scsii+tactics+other components of BWP

Ygramul

zur312: you are not making sense, sorry.

Improved invisibility, in vanilla, prohibits being targeted by spells, therefore, being hit with spell protection removals. It can end your game, if you fail to strip a mage in time.

Good balance and sturdy design are very important for a no-reload run. Essentially, you have *faith* in the designers for having a fair chance. (SCS is generally awesome for it, but some components are unfair.)

Lord_Tansheron

SCS does have a component that makes certain dispels have a (very small) AoE effect, in order to circumvent the Improved Invisibility/Spell Immunity: Divination/Abjuration problem. Another strategy is moving away/kiting until one or more protections wear off.

Spell Immunity is one of the major causes of headache in SCS, and dealing with it is essential. Fortunately, there is plenty of tools to dispel spell protections, and paired with another powerful dispel such as that from an Inquisitor, it can strip enemy mages of their protections fairly quickly and fairly effectively. Of course, there's always scripted contingencies to consider... but that's just what SCS is all about! Nobody said it was going to be easy ¬_¬

Ygramul

Thanks, Lord_Tansheron. I do indeed use that option of SCS in TUTU. I wonder if the current implementation in BGEE is stable enough for me to switch.

(This is a deciding issue for me because I play no-reload only.)

Dexter

@Ygramul many people is playing SCS-no reload. I myself managed to make to the final fight, but Sarevok's gang kicked my butt in one turn. You should check this out and post your adventures there:

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/17887/create-a-random-game-optional-no-reload-speed-game-contest-included-spoilers/

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/18573/the-minimal-reload-random-game-challenge-lems-version-revised-warning-spoilers

About SCS I didn't install "improved kobolds" and "improved Mulahey fight" because there's a bug that spawns kobolds non-stop, even after mulahey is dead. Other than this I've found no other bugs/crash

I think that what @zur312 is saying is that inquisitor's dispel is an area of effect spell, so it can dispel the invisibility of an improved invisible mage. Even if you actually can't aim the spell at him, you can aim close to him. Anyway I think this is BG2EE issue, I've found that in BGEE-SCS is more common for mages casting PfMW than SI, and most of them just use minor globe, so spell thrust really comes handy.
But hey, they are still so much harder than vanilla's

Lord_Tansheron

While Inquisitor dispel (and indeed the normal Dispel/Remove Magic spells) are indeed AoE, Spell Immunity: Abjuration is quite rampant through SCSII - meaning that you have to use spells that remove spell protections (Secret Word, Khelben's Warding Whip, Spellstrike, etc.) to get rid of the Spell Immunity first, before your Dispel Magic will do anything. Same goes for Spell Immunity: Divination, which is often added into the mix to put you into a particularly nasty spot... I've come to rely on Secret Word a lot, as it's a fairly low level spell that only competes with one other spell (Stoneskin) in its respective spell level. Of course it doesn't work against Liches (or Demiliches) so you better have some of the higher ones, too, if you plan on going where the undead walk...

Ygramul

I was thinking that Spell Thrust would be a staple for BGEE mage battles early on. And even for a BG2EE sorcerer, it can get rid of a Spell Shield cheaply.

I finished BGTutu/SCS no-reload with a sorcerer (+ usual team) once. The sorcerer loaded up mostly for spell battles and was largely inert for most fights. For things like improved ogre mage battles, or the improved red wizards, improved cloakwood fight, this load-out saved the day. I lost several games to each of those fights where a generalist mage (or two) just didn't cut it...

Good times.

Dexter

I agree with you @Lord_Tansheron, just saying that inquisitor's dispel can dispel improved invisibility (if not protected against it of course).
I also know what it is the "dammed, I'm running out of Secret Word' feeling. Even worse, sometimes mages buff themselves with SI, PfMW *and* Spell Shield, so you need 2 secret word followed by breach. That's why I want at least 2 arcane casters for a BG2 SCS run.

Lord_Tansheron

I consider 2 arcanes pretty much a minimum for SCSII - protections are just too rampant. In fact, it's all about the spells, really. Hardly any non-casters that are a problem to handle, but man those buffed mages can get annoying!

Dexter

Don't get me started on yuanti-mages...

bbear

Dealing w/ mages in SCSII arent that bad...I always found myself to have 100% MR in the difficult mage encounters. If I cant hit them, I'll just wait and let their spell protection to expire.

Lord_Tansheron

If you put some of the SCSII settings on the hardest options, mages will have HLAs, and Dragon's Breath goes right through your MR. I'm pretty sure they cast Lower Resist, too, though I don't know how frequently. Besides, you can only have 100 MR on one character, and it has to be a very specific setup... which lacks power in other respects I think it's easier to just have the right dispel toolkit.

Palanthis

Dexter said:

About SCS I didn't install "improved kobolds" and "improved Mulahey fight" because there's a bug that spawns kobolds non-stop, even after mulahey is dead. Other than this I've found no other bugs/crash

DavidW said he fixed this bug in version 23 of SCS. But i didn't tried it myself since, and it was pretty bugged indeed when i tried it a few months ago, before the fix.
Otherwise, SCS seems to cope well with BGEE at the moment. Except for the new quests (Neera and the other new NPC quests, and the Blackpits) because DavidW didn't have time to adapt them in SCS.
Actually SCS is still labelled "beta" but is pretty much good to go for BGEE. Let's hope though he can make a final, cleaner version of it in the next months (maybe he will at the time BG2EE will launch).

Dexter

Lord_Tansheron said:

If you put some of the SCSII settings on the hardest options, mages will have HLAs, and Dragon's Breath goes right through your MR. I'm pretty sure they cast Lower Resist, too, though I don't know how frequently. Besides, you can only have 100 MR on one character, and it has to be a very specific setup... which lacks power in other respects I think it's easier to just have the right dispel toolkit.

and don't forget summons, even without HLAs (planetars) they'll gate in a glabrezu or a pit friend. Because they can.

Lord_Tansheron

Dexter said:

and don't forget summons, even without HLAs (planetars) they'll gate in a glabrezu or a pit friend.


gate in a glabrezu or a pit friend.


a pit friend.

All my friends are pit friends! I smell a meme in the making...

minutus

Can't lean on inquisitor dispel if you install the component that makes it cast by normal level. The AoE anti-spell protection spells were an older component that's still there as optional, but the new "default" one allows targeting under the second effect of improved invisibility. Doesn't work if they sit in their initial complete invisibility though as there's nothing to target, but that they'll break themselves if they want to do anything but buffs/protections. Also, thieves detect illusion skill cuts through divination immunity.

And often it's possible to find another gap in their defences, as there are many tools for hitting/disrupting things even if you don't see them.

zur312

why would you pick something like nerf inquisitor? if he is nerfed than this class is useless because plain paladin has the same spell level of dispell

Lord_Tansheron

It's still innate, and I believe also pretty much instant. Much, much better than plain dispel. There's a thread on the forum somewhere if I recall correctly that discusses the pros and cons of full-power Inquisitor dispels at length. Great length. Suffice it to say, there's arguments for both sides, but even at x1 modifier it's still better than a regular dispel, plus you get True Sight for free, too.

In fact, you could argue that nerfing Inquisitor is what makes other paladin kits even viable, as they are a little lackluster compared to their Torquemada-brethren.

Also, I did not know that Thief detection pierced Spell Immunity; it would make sense (not a spell/magic), but many things that make sense aren't in fact how the game works so you never know... Interesting, very interesting! Certainly an option, I suppose, and something useful to put thieves skill points in at last!

zur312

my argument was not fair but i think duhm and other things that paladins get are fine vs great dispell and true sight

do you want buffs or debuff pick? your choice

maybe other paladins are less powerfull in powergaming party etc. but still great choice for fighters

Ygramul

I find (for no-reload games) SCS with all options turned-on too steep actually **assuming one has not memorized all encounters**.

For a reasonable (i.e. non-cheese, non-powergame, non-memorized) no-reload playthrough what would you consider are reasonable SCS components to keep with BG?

I'd say AI improvements, and long term buffs for mages/clerics, but not full insta-buffing (and no HLAs for BGII). I think many of the improved encounters are actually fatal if you have not tried them before.

What is your mix (for BGEE)? What options of SCS do you keep for such a no-reload setting?

lunar

Cloakwood druids do have Chain Lightning, Improved Invisibility, Fire elemental summons, Insect Plagues, and Call Lightning spells. Some can even turn into werewolf to attack in between spells. However, none of those fights are unavoidable and essential to the plot. Heck, they don't even have any loot worths considering. You need to avoid unnecesary threats in order to survive in a noreload game. Those druids are very deadly and give a hundred xps at most. Another example, is the mage guy Zordral in the Nashkel Carnival, he is not really worth tackling:a mundane robe of the knave, a potion or two, and 900 xp are not worth risking a TPK (total party kill) unless you are very high level that you can stomp him.

A thief with high detect illusions is very useful in SCS, especially at lower levels when mages/clerics can not deal with illusions. I pause the game, have my thief attack the enemy mage in melee, and then select detect traps. When I unpause, my thief will both attack the mage and detect illusions. Staying in melee range is very important, or the mage will throw melf's minute meteors and kill other party members easily, they go for the unarmored low HP targets as well.

Shield amulet sold in Nashkel Carnival is a very early available and valuable item. It both helps unarmored characters immensely, but also gives immunity to lethal 2xmagic missile sequencers sometimes used by mages. You just don't have enough hit points to survive 2 magic missiles (and a few melf's meteor throw in between) but Shield amulet will protect you.

Set traps is also very powerful skill in BG:EE, but it can feel cheesy.

I would not recommend SCS with a no-reload, unless you really are very experienced and have a solid game-plan:where to get good items and xp fast with little risk, etc. Guys in Bioware forums of BG no-reload thread do it all the time, with SCS, and they very rarely succeed. You may look there for ideas as well, they offer a very interesting read. ^^

One thing to consider is, SCS gives all enemies different, random sets of spells according to their level in every installation. Even then, in the same installation, a spellcaster can cast his spells in different order, and use different sequencers in every reload. So you need to be very adaptable and ready for anything, all the time.

Lord_Tansheron

I find that SCS with everything cranked to 11 is how the Sword Coast should be. That place is DEADLY, and some intrepid adventurer is supposed to be fighting an uphill battle all the time. I mean, you're trying to become a GOD, not a farmer. It's only natural that you have to grind it out with blood, sweat, and tears.

zur312

but if yo know how to get good exp isn't this easy? when you are level 5 and you should be level 2 in nashklel mines it really helps

Dexter

Ygramul said:

What is your mix (for BGEE)? What options of SCS do you keep for such a no-reload setting?

I used all AI enhancements, mages with long-term buffs (option 3), clerics with insta-buff (option 1), *no* potions for NPCs, *no* relocated bounty hunters and *no* improved kobolds. Core rules.

Made it to the final battle, and was dead in the first turn. Problem is I didn't explore for instance durlag's (and most tough, high XP places), so the party was 1-2 level below max when I faced sarevok. But still made it quite far, given that all HP rolls were random. My tank, Ajantis, had 48 HP in the last fight. That's a blow and a half from sarevok!
What I did: use large amounts of magic, potions, wands and what not in every fight. For instance, "there's a pack of spiders", instead of thinking "attack spiders" I was like "scroll of prot from poison plus potion of freedom plus fireball".
You are waylaid by... edwin drinks invisibility potion... Ogre berserker = slow + glitterdust/blind. You get the point, it's a no reload run.

However I think I may need a max level party with the best items and more HP to actually beat Sarevok and his folks (haven't made it yet). More XP means exploring most areas and hence more risk to die. But anyway it was a fun game.

zur312

if my main tank was 48 hp i would gave everyone bows and just mass sumon lol

Ygramul

I remember trying to tank Sarevok in BGTutu (SCS; with improved final battle; reduced summons BG2-style; no-reload).

Ouch!

The only party member that could tank him was charname (fighter/mage with best gear, -12 AC or so, mirror images, stone skins etc.). I still did not dare for more than a round or two out of necessity. I micromanaged everyone (turned off the AI) around multiple webs and speedbumps (i.e. summons) until I whittled down his party. Even then I finished him off with ranged attacks and spells.

Satisfying to complete a no-reload game. I hope one day I will do so for BG2. (I haven't seen even the Underdark in a decade.... *sigh*)

Dexter

zur312 said:

if my main tank was 48 hp i would gave everyone bows and just mass sumon lol

I don't think that would work against sarevok, they killed my spiders and skeletons in no time. Besides there are 3 mages in there, with stones, mirror images, and at least Angelo PfMW.
I really liked the random-no reload thing, but rolling 2HP with your fighter in a level up is just aggravating

zur312

it depends on the team but there should be better options to tank sarevok than 48 hp fighter and you really doesn't need to go fight with sarevok in melee just run and shoot