My Dwarven Fighter Has Negative THACO!!

GandalfPortraitGuy

I know that's good, but at what level is he extremely powerful? In BG2, my Dwarf Fighter, Cadfael, has -1 THACO. Could I get all the way down to mid - THACO levels?

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Moomintroll

I now have the Cadfael themetune playing on repeat in my head! Someone less addled should be able to answer your question.

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lunar

Fighter Level based THAC0 progression stops at zero. However that's base ThAC0. Massive strength, weapon mastery, magic weapon pluses, some spells, kensai/archer enemies, etc. will all factor in.

Theoraticaly, a lvl 40 kensai dual wielding a +5 weapon in which he is grandmaster, off-hand Crom Faeyr for 25 str boost, will have the best THAC0 and damage per hit possible. That would be well below -22s. And something like +35 damage per hit or so..Add improved haste and activate Critical Strike or Smite... And watch enemies explode into bloody chunks of meat.

silof

I think that -10 is all you need to hit anything every time (except critical miss).
maybe a bit lower but not much...

Ascerion

I think there is an option in BG2tweaks that allows for un-nerfed PnP THAC0 progression. If you are interested. Basically instead of stopping at zero, it continues at the same rate. Doesn't really make much sense for fighters to suddenly stop getting better at hitting things for no reason. =P

Bercon

@Ascerion So you think reflexes, strength, speed and accuracy have no limits, eh?

I recall that there are some mobs in ToB with AC around -20, which means you need Thac0 -20 to hit them with certainty.

sarevok57

actually if they had -20 AC you only need -18 thac0 to hit them with certainty, plus I think the lowest AC in the game is either dragons/ the prince of demons and they can hit around -16, usually my lower end fighters in ToB hit around -12 thac0 and don't seem to have too much trouble ever in hitting baddies and for @GandalfPortraitGuy dwarven fighter in SoA/ToB he should hit around -10 or so when he hits level 21 or so I would think, in bg1 he could probably hit around 3 or 4 thac0

Cheesebelly

Bercon said:

@Ascerion So you think reflexes, strength, speed and accuracy have no limits, eh?

I recall that there are some mobs in ToB with AC around -20, which means you need Thac0 -20 to hit them with certainty.

After watching the Miracle Blade commercials, anyone thinks that reflexes, strength, speed and accuracy have no limits :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2N4U7B1Jog


But more on-topic, at that point in Throne of Bhaal when many fighters can have 10 attacks per round, each landed hit dealing about 30 damage, you just don't understand what the hell is going in. That's why I don't like Throne of Bhaal too much! It's a clusterfudge of insta-moving giant-bladed serial killers!

Durenas

sarevok57 said:

actually if they had -20 AC you only need -18 thac0 to hit them with certainty, plus I think the lowest AC in the game is either dragons/ the prince of demons and they can hit around -16, usually my lower end fighters in ToB hit around -12 thac0 and don't seem to have too much trouble ever in hitting baddies and for @GandalfPortraitGuy dwarven fighter in SoA/ToB he should hit around -10 or so when he hits level 21 or so I would think, in bg1 he could probably hit around 3 or 4 thac0

A good trick is to combine smite with greater whirlwind for 10 attacks in one round, all crits. Who needs THAC0?

ajwz

Thac0 is an example of a roleplaying system designed by commitee

FinneousPJ

THAC0 is silly. It works the same as attack bonus in 3rd Ed. but it's much harder to interpret.

Cheesebelly

I don't see the toughness of it, isn't it "your THAC0 - Enemy AC" = Roll? And when I say equal I mean equal or major than. No? NO?!

Uhh... yeah, it kinda is confusing. But then again I don't understand the math to the 3rd Edition rules

sarevok57

did you know that greater whirlwind actually gives you only about 7 attacks per round? one time I actually counted them in my little window at the bottom there, and I was only getting about 7 or so, sometimes 8, because even if you take one nano step anywhere you are wasting attacks per round time, and one time I only got 5 out of it because I critical missed twice

TJ_Hooker

Ascerion said:

I think there is an option in BG2tweaks that allows for un-nerfed PnP THAC0 progression. If you are interested. Basically instead of stopping at zero, it continues at the same rate. Doesn't really make much sense for fighters to suddenly stop getting better at hitting things for no reason. =P

I've never installed this, but according to the readme, this component allows your THAC0 to progress after level 20, but still caps it at a THAC0 of zero. So it doesn't actually have any effect for warrior classes.

Edit: it looks like THAC0 (in a non-modded game) actually caps at level 21 or 22, depending on class, rather than right at level 20 as I thought.

Ascerion

TJ_Hooker said:

Ascerion said:

I think there is an option in BG2tweaks that allows for un-nerfed PnP THAC0 progression. If you are interested. Basically instead of stopping at zero, it continues at the same rate. Doesn't really make much sense for fighters to suddenly stop getting better at hitting things for no reason. =P

I've never installed this, but according to the readme, this component allows your THAC0 to progress after level 20, but still caps it at a THAC0 of zero. So it doesn't actually have any effect for warrior classes.

Well, fudge.

Thought I understood what it meant when it said PnP Thac0 progression. Ah, well, I appreciate you looking it up, even if you ended up proving me wrong. =D Don't want anyone to plan a character around a flawed concept. That wouldn't be good!

~Ascerion

Sharn

Its been some time since I played 2nd edition, but I am pretty sure base Thac0 could not go below 1. The other classes could keep progressing in base Thac0 past level 20 because their base Thac0 was not yet a 1, it had nothing to do with reaching level 20.

That being said, I have never played a pnp game in 2nd edition far past level 20 that where not occasional one shot games for old characters, D&D, every edition of it, has done a terrible job of balancing at high levels past 20. Characters get ridiculously powerful, to the point that things that happen in video games for high level characters make absolutely no sense most of the time, but since they are video games they get a pass, but no gm trying to pull that kind of thing in pnp would get away with it.

elminster

Cheesebelly said:

But more on-topic, at that point in Throne of Bhaal when many fighters can have 10 attacks per round, each landed hit dealing about 30 damage, you just don't understand what the hell is going in. That's why I don't like Throne of Bhaal too much! It's a clusterfudge of insta-moving giant-bladed serial killers!

I agree!

CoM_Solaufein

Better to have negative THAC0 than positive!