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Its true-The Monk class is the most gimped in early BG 1

DKnightDKnight Member Posts: 307
I'm not going to lie that I was hoping to try out the new monk npc in this 3rd play through. I couldn't have been more wrong. While the character has a great story, he is the most weak and frail character in the game until at least lvl 5-7. Im serious, his stats aren't the problem, its just that monks aren't meant for the 1st game in the series. I thought I might be wrong, but I am indeed right. You might be able to get them to a reasonable lvl, but not without keeping them away from archers/heavy hitters/the fighting altogether. Its not that they are weak but moreso that their armor class is so high and in early game 1-2 hits is it. I can't even begin to imagine how bad a monk is in nashkel mines.

Im probably going to have to exp farm until he is at least lvl 4.

Another problem is that even thieves and bards are better tanks early game than a monk. My thief can hold his own against 2-3 enemies at once with sword and shield. The problem is monks are a late game character that can do crazy stuff in late game. I know this because I played one in BG 2. I soloed the game and it was awesome.

What to learn from this-The game will likely add rasaad to bg2, I don't doubt. He will be good in that game, but in the future remake of bg2, they should add a regular class thief or one of the kits. Im sorry but the only thief in game in the 2nd is Yoshimo and he's basically it. Thieves are much more needed in game than a monk. This was a good idea, but it failed which is still ok cause he will be playable in the expansion.

A thief will likely be very needed in bg2 if they add anymore. Other than that, I would say the wild mage character is probably 5 times less useless than this guy. Ugh, how the heck am I going to get to lvl 4?
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Comments

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Monks have always had an issue with power curve. Very weak at the beginning, very powerful at the end. They're a lot like wizards in that regard, except that wizards aren't meant to be jumping in and out of combat all the time in the same way that monks are.

    Equip Rasaad with a ranged weapon (I think he's proficient with slings?) and keep him to the back of the group until he's level 4 or so, and then you should be okay to bring him to the front lines.
  • DonovanDonovan Member Posts: 6
    Actually, kep tje sling for mage and make him use dart instead.
    Dart of wounding are very useful on him, specially against caster.
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    You need to think laterally sometimes to find a good use for some NPCs and abilities. Or at least have them throw stuff at the bad guys til they fall down.
  • GandalfPortraitGuyGandalfPortraitGuy Member Posts: 206
    Fun Fact:
    Neera had a 1 percent kill rate for my group in my first run on BGEE. Dorn had a 60% kill rate among all six characters.
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    @GandalfPortraitGuy Neera get too many gems wild surges? "Why do I keep you around Neera?" "Hey look what I found in my pocket!" "Touche'."
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Low level monks are not supposed to be tanking melee fighters. They are more scouts, flankers, hit and run tacticians, and they work well when you try to stun a spesific enemy, while attacking from shadows. If you send Rasaad to straight melee an Ogre Berserker, he will die. Dorn can pull it off, Rasaad can not.
  • GandalfPortraitGuyGandalfPortraitGuy Member Posts: 206
    CaptRory said:

    @GandalfPortraitGuy Neera get too many gems wild surges? "Why do I keep you around Neera?" "Hey look what I found in my pocket!" "Touche'."

    Actually Neera was pretty good as a panicking meat shield for my spell casting PC. lol. Really I didn't know if you could remove her gembag. If I did, I wouldn't have kept her. In my next play through I accidentally had her eaten by wild dogs by resting on the Temple grounds East of Beregost. Poor Neera, her financial and storage contribution to the team will be sorely appreciated.

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  • DKnightDKnight Member Posts: 307
    lunar said:

    Low level monks are not supposed to be tanking melee fighters. They are more scouts, flankers, hit and run tacticians, and they work well when you try to stun a spesific enemy, while attacking from shadows. If you send Rasaad to straight melee an Ogre Berserker, he will die. Dorn can pull it off, Rasaad can not.

    This I will admit has been somewhat true. Seeing as they are so fragile, I will usually use rasaad as a wandering flanker who will while the party is attacking come up from the side and hopefully hit the enemy before they start to attack him. Its actually worked well as he always gets the first hit. I will no doubt foresee that rasaad will have a better chance to hit than my thief at lvl 10. The only problem is that my thief will still do more damage than him on average. The reasoning why is that any weapon user will have a +2 from weapon, more damage from strength, and all sorts of other things that a 16 strength rasaad doesn't have.
  • MoomintrollMoomintroll Member Posts: 1,498
    Mages are a trade off in the early game, they are still very powerful. Can the same be said of monks?
  • SamuelVargSamuelVarg Member Posts: 598
    I played through BGIEE with a monk CHARNAME and Rasaad.
    Some hard fights but nothing I couldn't handle. The Naschkel mines where really fun since I had to sneak through them, hide in shadows and attack from the darkness. I really liked that. Gave more realism than a band of hack'n'slashers that bash their way down to an unexpecting boss.

    It's kind of tedious to hear people rant about classes they think suck. If you can't play the class - don't do it. But if you play it right with strategy and some thinking you can play the game with "weak" classes as well. It's not so much of a hack'n'slash playthrough. Instead it's more strategy and RPG. That equals more fun if you ask me.

    and btw - The monks rule supreme!
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  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    Agree with that.
    Monks are lackluster pre-level 6 and my own monk (18/17/16/10/15/17 - got a good roll) was running around with the bracers of archery and darts, kiting mobs. On hitting level 6, he was able to actually normally hit things in combat and stand his own, so I started punching things into the face.

    Rasaad, when you give him all his items (boots, belt, gauntlets) does quite pack a punch. THAC0 at max level is around 8, 5 with Drizzt's scimitar Twinkle.(also with -3 AC for the weapon and fighting style).

    Sad thing is that, the devs had to put 3 items into the game to make one lousy NPC at least viable. All are usable only by LG monk (My LE monk smirks upon seeing them). Of course, if LG Rasaad can stomach killing Drizzt and wielding his Scimitar.

    Rasaad's quest is quite good, but upon slaughtering lots and lots of evil monks, mostly without getting hit, you pretty much get the idea anyway.

    BTW - I once finished BG1Tutu with a monk and a thief (Imoen I think)... pretty hard, but doable.
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  • hwlrmnkyhwlrmnky Member Posts: 5
    My dragon disciple went and picked Rasaad up almost immediately. With the Gauntlets of DEX he's doing just fine, delivering a lot of killing blows after Khalid and I soften them up. He throws darts until getting close enough to use his melee weapon. I'm finding him more useful this play through than during the one when I picked him up at level 5, possibly because I'm better at utilizing him now. Though I did have an amusing time using only Rasaad and a Kensai for melee.
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    @hwlrmnky - wait...isn't Rasaad coming with a proficiency point in Katanas + Scimitars? (I wish the devs would at least give him the single weapon style prof)
    How come you can use darts with him without actually having a THAC0 of 25? He should be getting another proficiency point at level 4 to get darts/sling/single weapon style.
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    I tried using a fourth level Rasaad as a second line backup fighter, and he still managed to get critical hit to death by a gnoll halberd - 35 hit points damage in one blow.

    One thing I don't see discussed very much is the lack of a helmet for monks, creating a permanent weakness to critical hits. I don't think any character who can't wear a helmet has any business in melee.

    I fought all of Rasaad's brother's monk friends and cleaned out the monastery ridiculously easily with a level 5 party. Dorn could one-shot most of them by then. I never had much trouble with Balthazzar in ToB, either. With apologies to fans of the class, I just don't find it very impressive at any level, not compared to the traditional fighter/rogue/cleric/mage quartet of classes.
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  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    Samus - the skills aren't good enough to act as utility character. I agree with your suggestion. Or if they could not only detect traps, but also disarm them (like thieves do).
    That would add a tremendous utility to the class. Nowadays, you don't even spend points into detecting traps as the majority of traps I have seen are not avoidable anyway. And 10points per level...
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I think the problem is simply a one of usage and expectation.

    If you play through a single class wizard through something like the entire Nashkal Mines scenario (from hitting town through Mulahay) without any cheesy resting in dungeons, you might find that Raasad isn't any less useless on the whole than that wizard. In fact, probably they are quite a bit more useful as they have actual abilites other than combat to draw upon. A 2nd/3rd level wizard has only a very limited number of spells that he must use very tactically. Sure that makes all the difference in the world in one single combat, but in the long haul not so much.

    And.... Not everything is about raw power.
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026

    And.... Not everything is about raw power.

    I concur. Monks are weak at low levels and begin to shine at high levels. Just like Mages do.
    Especially after lvl 13, when they get magic resistance. Which can make all the difference in ToB. (max base 86% magic resist)
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited May 2013
    It's not entirely accurate to say that Yoshimo is your only option for the party thief: setting aside the fact that Jan's thief skills level up over time, both Imoen and Nalia are broadly sufficient (Imoen's Open Locks is 95 and her Find Traps is 85, more than enough to get you through Watcher's Keep). And there are very strong indications (though no official confirmation yet) that the fourth new NPC in BG2:EE (after Dorn, Neera and Rasaad) will be an evil thief of some sort (probably a Shadowdancer).
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    shawne said:

    It's not entirely accurate to say that Yoshimo is your only option for the party thief: setting aside the fact that Jan's thief skills level up over time, both Imoen and Nalia are broadly sufficient (Imoen's Open Locks is 95 and her Find Traps is 85, more than enough to get you through Watcher's Keep). And there are very strong indications (though no official confirmation yet) that the fourth new NPC in BG2:EE (after Dorn, Neera and Rasaad) will be an evil thief of some sort (probably a Shadowdancer).

    I absolutely agree that Yoshimo is far from your only Thief choice. My current playthrough of BG2 has both Jan and Yoshimo as party members. Although Yoshimo is the master of hiding in shadows, he has nothing what so ever on Jan for removing traps and picking locks. And Yoshi is 4 levels Jan's senior in power. Personally I'd rather have Jan around because he can simply cast invisibility to make him more powerful than Yoshi. And he can cast other spells too boot.

    never played with Imoen as a thief in BG2 and never wanted to have Nalia so I can't speak to them as thieves, but.... Yeah, Yoshi is great. No question. He is by far not the only thief though.

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Samus said:

    One method I found with using Rasaad is to recruit him later on in the game, so he already has a few levels. It makes him more durable if players find him frustrating to use.

    Hey I do that too! They say great minds think alike, heh. ^_^ I postpone talking to him until Baldur's gate, and then get him and play a while to trigger his dialogues and quests. He starts off high lvl that way and does not die as easily. (Still a few critical hits do him in, though.)

  • DKnightDKnight Member Posts: 307

    I played through BGIEE with a monk CHARNAME and Rasaad.
    Some hard fights but nothing I couldn't handle. The Naschkel mines where really fun since I had to sneak through them, hide in shadows and attack from the darkness. I really liked that. Gave more realism than a band of hack'n'slashers that bash their way down to an unexpecting boss.

    It's kind of tedious to hear people rant about classes they think suck. If you can't play the class - don't do it. But if you play it right with strategy and some thinking you can play the game with "weak" classes as well. It's not so much of a hack'n'slash playthrough. Instead it's more strategy and RPG. That equals more fun if you ask me.

    and btw - The monks rule supreme!

    I never said monks suck. I made one in Bg 2 and soloed the game. But in bg1, its not impossible for a npc but tougher than usual. You see rasaad is not a bad character actually. He has decent strength, dex and enough constitution to get an extra point from a book. Coupled with decent wisdom and what not. The problem is until you get to lvl4 or 5, it can be tough in early game. The reason why its tougher for a npc rather than a player character is that you 'the player' can roll yourself a nice 18 18 18 in strength, dex and constitution while the npc can't. That might not seem like much, but an extra ac bonus of 2 and 1 bonus to hit from strength (plus con bonus) is somewhat crucial in early game.

    I never said I would give up. Heck no, these games are too good to give up :)

    All I am saying is that out of the characters we all choose for a tank, next time think twice on choosing rasaad over other choices, especially if your new to game. My previous play through included dorn and that pretty much speaks for itself. Dorn is my favorite character in the bg series and favorite evil character. Also he packs the most punch out of any fighter Ive seen in a crpg, except Sarevok.

    I don't know, maybe its just me and its not too hard.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    just cluaconsole an Gauntlet of Crushing or import an character from "The black Pits with it", that will solve 50% of your low level monk problem. I really wished that glove could be picked in the game later (in an decent quest, maybe in the low levels of durlag's tower or in Baldur's Gate).
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I agree that Rasaad is kind of weak, especially at first, but he's far from useless. Frankly, once he hits 3rd level (which happens pretty fast with cleric xp progression) he starts to be a pretty decent melee damage dealer. He remains a terrible tank throughout the entire game, but that's fine because he has the speed to get out of melee combat if enemies start targeting him. And with the items from his quest, he becomes a damage-dealing beast in the late-game.

    As for him being vulnerable to critical hits, there are at least two ioun stones in the game that he can wear. One of them is sold in High Hedge for a few hundred gold, so it's available pretty early on. All it does is grant infravision, but since it's worn in the head slot it counts as a helmet and blocks critical hits (confirmed on the current version by me, just now, having my archer shoot Rasaad a bunch of times).
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