so... cow falls on target?

Ygramul

How dangerous is this "wild" magic then?

Let's say I play a no-reload game and I play very conservatively (e.g. no casting *anything* in crowded towns).
How is the cumulative risk?

What if the wild mage is the PC?
What if it is Neera?

And, also just how much damage does falling cow do?

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Kaltzor

Well, the effects vary from flashy colors to portals to hell... There is really no way to prepare to what's coming properly.

lunar

The risk is always %5 per every spell you cast, so the more spells you cast, the more risk you'll have. A wild mage can and will wipe out a whole party with a burst, fireball, cow surges. Cow does very big damage and has a large area effect, like a fireball. Also, wild mage can make himself held (which equals to death in combat) or petrified. If you accidentaly summon a demon you risk TPK again. (Total party kill) also, surges 'caster becomes targeted, caster also targeted' can be bad news if you were casting a fireball or lightning bolt. Area effect surge can be a blessing or curse. Gold destroyed surge can really hurt.

There are bad surges, like those I mentioned above. There are neutral surges, which has no important effect (color change, what was that over there, sex change, explosion that does nothing) and there are a few good surges as well (spell cast at double level, no saving throw, spell cast twice, spell cast and I feel refreshed)

Ygramul

With all due thanks to everyone, I already understand the wild magic mechanics. So, what I am really asking about is playthrough experiences. Let me rephrase:

** Over the course of an entire BGEE no-reload run, what are the odds that you will loose a game that would have successfully completed otherwise solely because someone (or you) is a wild mage?


Incidentally, is the Cow fixed damage or level dependent? Is being held etc. affected by saving throws rings of free action etc.. If that is the case catastrophic failure (TPK) risk must begin to diminish at higher levels? Is this true?

ZanathKariashi

Only when using Naehl's. Naehl's allows you to add your caster level to your wild surge rolls and higher is generally better....though there are a few instant death with no save to target effects, that are awesome when using attack spells but potentially party killing if using buffs, up there as well.

The random 5% chance roll is completely random and doesn't get any modifiers unless your happen to have a Chaos shield cast (very unlikely given the extremely short duration and the ridiculously small chance of a random surge).

I'm reasonably sure the cow's damage is based on the level of the spell you attempted to cast + caster level.

Though sometimes, due to the random casting animation, you'll shoot a cow at someone to buff them, since that's a possible animation choice.


If an effect replicates the effect of a spell that allows a save, you generally get a save, unless it specifically says otherwise. Though some of the more random unique stuff like hiccups, sex change, gold loss, etc, generally don't.

Lord_Tansheron

You can't give "odds" on that, because the factors involved vary so drastically. A "bad" wild surge can do nothing, or that same wild surge can kill you all - depending on when, and where it happens. If you Haste your party in town, and get Held - big deal; if you cast a clutch spell while trying to escape an already deadly situation, and get Held - game over. Then there's also varieties in the surge itself. Sometimes you get a double-roll for example, and can end up with a bad effect AND a no-save-"bonus" added to it.

Generally speaking, it is not very likely. But the more important question, I think, would be whether you personally think that the upsides of a Wild Mage are worth the potential grief in case of that freak accident, especially if playing a No-Reload-Challenge.

Wild surges do in fact diminish in their danger the higher you go. I believe the caster's level is added in there somewhere (assuming they are in fact a Wild Mage), and there's also Chaos Shield/Nahal's that add bonuses to the wild surge roll.

Ygramul

Lord_Tansheron said:

You can't give "odds" on that

Actually, you can.
I'm not asking for numerically accurate statistical analysis. Someone who has played a wild mage all the way through can probably say with some confidence:

"There is no way you can expect to complete a game without Total Party Kill due to wild magic."
VS
"If you play carefully you'll probably survive wild magic effects more likely than not."

(Keep in mind we are talking no-reload here.)

Kaltzor

Well, IF you want some statistics... I'd give every spell cast about a 1% chance to have a surge that can potentially cause deaths... Things like fireballs on the caster, demon summons etc. or holds and such for the mage itself that make them a free kill for the enemy.

Ygramul

@Lord_Tansheron

In case I am misunderstood, I do not even for a moment think wild mage as a powergaming choice. So, it's 'advantages', as it were, are not important to me.

What I wonder is if their *disadvantages* are an almost guanrateed game-killer (for no-reload).

Ygramul

Kaltzor said:

I'd give every spell cast about a 1% chance to have a surge that can potentially cause deaths

That (1% per cast) was that I was suspecting too based on looking at the wild surge table. Of course, over the course a whole game (I suspect a caster easily casting 1000 spells) this becomes a certainty many times over.

BUT the chance of Total Party Kill or Protagonist Kill (which would end a no-reload game) would be significantly lower IF one choose to cast conservatively (i.e. no casting in town, no buffing the protagonist etc. with the wild mage).

Also, I would expect that having Neera as wild mage should be significantly less risky than having the charname as wild mage for a no-reload game.

Any thoughts?

Kaltzor

Well, the thing with statistics is that sure, you can get off lots of safe spells with that chance of something bad happening according to statistics... But you will never know when the one spell that does it hits... It could be your very first spell you cast in the game, you try to throw a magic missile at a wolf in the forest outside of Candlekeep as a wild mage and suddenly a wild surge makes the caster the target and you roll on the hit on yourself max damage and die.

Ygramul

*sigh*

No. Statistics does not imply some persistent unreliability. Over a long time frame with repeated samples (read: a full BGEE game) one should reliably say (repeating myself here):

"There is no way you can expect to complete a game without Total Party Kill due to wild magic."
VS
"If you play carefully you'll probably survive wild magic effects more likely than not."


Has no one taken a wild mage over an entire game?

hwlrmnky

I've taken Neera through the whole game, twice. Each playthrough had a Wild Surge that killed everyone. Yes, one was a cow. I can't think when I've seen so much damage so abruptly. Dead serious. I would not do Wild Mage on a no-load game unless I wanted (a) true suspense and (b) to start over an infinite number of times.

Ygramul

hwlrmnky said:

I've taken Neera through the whole game, twice. Each playthrough had a Wild Surge that killed everyone. Yes, one was a cow. I can't think when I've seen so much damage so abruptly. Dead serious. I would not do Wild Mage on a no-load game unless I wanted (a) true suspense and (b) to start over an infinite number of times.

Ack!

Thanks @hwlrmnky for a clear answer!
That's what I was afraid to hear. No-reload is only fun as long as you loose because you did something stupid, not because Arnie (RNG, the Random Number God, for Nethackites out there) doesn't like you.


Okay, bonus question:

On the wild surge table, The Cow only falls on target. What if Neera specializes as an offensive-only mage (casting self-buffs only alone, out of combat, not standing next to charname).

Ygramul

In fact, here is a hypothetical suggested play-style:
(non-ambush only!)

A thief scouts ahead, finds enemies. Neera walks ahead and opens up with a nuke (or sleep or what have you). Having softened the targets, she retreats, behind party. Casts more spells only when distanced from party members and only when target is distanced from charname.

You see that this is not a powergaming choice. The challenge is: "can you survive a wild mage at all in a no-reload run?"

Vindsval

Since TOB and the wild mage came out, i thought "this is THE class i was looking for !!", and i've played mostly as wild mage since. I'm no expert but i think I've a grasp of the gameflow of the class.

Frankly, In BG2, wild surges are manageable. You can screw a fight by messing a key spell, but you can adapt your gameplay. Be careful, as your contingencies are NOT reliable ! (a wild surges as occured to me several times on release).But no real big deal, in the end. The odds to (insta) kill yourself are very low (but still present), if you take care of your saving throws, and that's quite easy with the abundance of gear.

Now, to BG1... You've got some bad saving throws. The squirrel transformation has happened to me as soon as Beregost and it was..tadaaa... game over (this is how i dicovered polymorph others is now an insta kill, by the way). If Neera is your wild mage, with careful playing you'll probably survive (but probably not her, though ), if it's you... I can't say there's no way for you to live, but each time you'll cast a spell you will be VERY nervous. If it's the way you like, you 're good to go, just avoid casting on yourself, and prepare for some fireballs effects on yourself at least.

Death is a rare occurence but... i think it happened to me at he rate of... one game on three. So, let's say you've got 33% chance of killing yourself on a whole game. So, for a solo AND no-reload playtime, frankly, it's up to you but you will very probably die by messing spells or killing yourself outright.

Wild mage is imo a very enjoyable class, but you must be quite an hardcore player to play it no-reload. D20 systems are very, very random, and wild magic makes things worse.

Ygramul

Thanks for the detailed reply, @Vindsval.

I never play solo and I doubt I would make charname itself a wild mage for first try on no-reload. So, the issue becomes: can Neera be survived?

Does the squirrel transformation kill the caster irreversibly? (i.e. can I resurrect Neera if she squirrels herself to death?) Is there a saving throw against polymorph? (wild surge table is not very informative on that.)

atcDave

I've finished BG three times with Neera in the party all the way through. I think she's funny and entertaining. But I wouldn't recommend a wild Mage for a no reload game. I think I've only seen catastrophic TPK results twice, but I've had several failures of spells that I thought I really needed, and I've seen Neera accidentally kill herself two or three times. A couple of those led to me reloading battles before I even bothered to see if I could win anyway (I strongly suspected I was doomed, so I hit reload).
I think sometimes the failures create interesting tactical challenges, and it would be good bragging rights for winning anyway. But sometimes it just makes a mess of things, and it's not your fault, and you can't fix it. The risk of extreme frustration in a no reload game old be very high!

Kaltzor

I'm not saying that statistics are inaccurate, unpredictable or anything, but even if it is 1 out of every 1000 spells that can TPK or kill the mage, it doesn't mean you get 999 safe spells before it happens, it just means it will most likely happen somewhere within that frame with a quite high chance of probability.

Vindsval

Yes, you always get a save against nasty wild surges like petrify, squirrel, slow, entangle... They are all like regular version of spells. Dunno if a multiple effect WS can deny you a save, but it has NEVER occured to me since the release of TOB.

I don't know if you can raise Neera. I think it depends on the difficulty you're playing. Polymoph others seems now to make characters explode, rewards you with the xp for the kill (if any), drop the loot on the ground like a regular bloody death, and spawn a neutral squirrel. Her quest reward her with a good belt against this nasty outcome, ( and should work against petrify, too).


But don't forget Neera can polymorph YOU in a buffing attempt

Ygramul

Vindsval said:

But don't forget Neera can polymorph YOU in a buffing attempt

Hence my suggestion to make her an offensive-only caster -- no buffing anyone. And she buffs herself only away from party.

Ygramul

Here is an analysis of the wild magic table:

reference:
http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/bg2/character/classes/tables/wildsurge.shtml

(I assume here a proposed playstyle of Neera being an offensive-only mage for a no-reload game. Thus, e.g., there is no chance of cow-on-party because she will never cast buffs on anyone. Basically, Neera plays as if every spell she casts could be accompanied by a Fireball.)

legend:
- : danger to caster
% : nuisance (but won't kill anyone)
+ : moderate danger to whole party (e.g. fireball on caster)
* : severe danger to whole party (could become TPK or require running away from a winnable fight)

[1-100: mild outcomes ignored]

6 +
14 -
16 -

19 +
21 +
22 -
31 +
47 -
48 +
54 * (demon)


----

ANALYSIS:

IF the following is kept up vigilantly:
- Neera never casts buffs on others, never casts spells in town, refrains spell use in tight ambushes.
- Neera has Chaos Shield whenever possible
- Party always has Prot from Evil going (if at early levels and a Gate appears... RUN!)

THEN
the only major dangers are possible Fireball-like effects on party 3/100 times on a wild surge (19,21, maybe 31). So, a 0.05 x 0.03 = 0.0015 chance.

CONCLUSION:
With a *very* conservative play style, Neera can be reliable survived.

(Now, challenge to myself here is to actually finish a no-reload (SCS, of course) game with Neera.)

Qbert

I took Neera through my first ever playthrough of the game with an archer as PC. Contrary to much of the advice in this and other threads i always kept chaos shield up when using spells. I had imoen dualed so i mostly used neera as a combat caster. I also completed Neeras quest and got the belt that added to poly saves. Lastly, i never used nahals until i was level 6 or 7, towards the end of the game anyway; my thinking being that with chaos plus caster levels the good surges were more likely. Even then i used it sparingly. I saved on at least one poly, gated in a demon during the battle at the end of durlags tower ( i already was at my summon limit so it didn't appear - i didn't know it counted as a summon) had many double rolls that i couldn't figure out what effect if any they had. never had a tpk but was held, glowed, received gems, became dizzy, silenced, rested, had all weapons glow, and had saving throws lowered on target. Those are the ones i remember at least.

Maybe i was lucky with the bad surges or maybe chaos shield helped but didn't have really bad surges.

the_spyder

lunar said:

There are bad surges, like those I mentioned above. There are neutral surges, which has no important effect (color change, what was that over there, sex change, explosion that does nothing) and there are a few good surges as well (spell cast at double level, no saving throw, spell cast twice, spell cast and I feel refreshed)

Wait a minute. Sex change is a "Neutral" effect?

CorpusDelicti

Hahahahaha! I wish I would have been able to catch a screen shot when I see that cow fall from the sky. My favorite reason to have Neera in my party.

"The cow goes ... 'Moo!'"

Djimmy

Ask Minsc Nah, just kidding, Minc. But seriously, were a helmet next time. Will ya?

hwlrmnky

@Ygramul, when the cow wiped us out Neera was casting I-forget-what on herself and the rolls triggered a short chain of wild surges. This resulted in a falling cow nearly simultaneous with a fiery inferno and a lot of screaming. After that, I started making her walk around the corner or past a boulder in order to cast Stoneskin.

I suspect you are correct that restricting Neera to offensive spells would increase your chances of survival. I think there is a bias in the programming; I find I am more likely to get a negative surge when not already engaged in combat (buffing, alignment checks, invisibility casts, etc.) If you are the sort who likes to poke around in the code, I'm curious to know whether this is just my impression or actually true. Trauma being especially memorable 'n' all.

CaptRory

Anyone else just have Neera cast spell to see if something fun happens?

Ygramul

hwlrmnky said:

I find I am more likely to get a negative surge when not already engaged in combat...

@hwlrmnky
I'd guess that what we are seeing is a mix of 1. 'confirmation bias' and 2. bad random number generator

1. simply put, you remember catastrophic things more vividly

2. I'm pretty sure the BG random number generator is one of the low quality ones (i.e. a lot of correlated rolls): people constantly complain failing to memorize spells repeatedly or critical failures again and again. It seems that over many many rolls things are balanced, but there are repeated correlated rolls that ain't.

COROLLARY: Every once a year you are gonna have a really really bad day where Neera calls in a demon and then sex changes YOU in front of it after paralyzing you and the whole party.

Ygramul

On further look at the surge table:

If using Chaos Shield with level 5+ if you use Nahal's Dweomer your odds of casting the spell (or something similar) successfully to offensive target is about ...

30-35%

(~10-15 'good' rolls out of 100 + (15+(5+)) shift for the Dweomer itself)

... at a risk of about 3% catastrophic failure per cast.

CONCLUSION:
Nahal's Reckless Dweomer is too reckless to cast -- at least until you can use advanced Chaos Shield in BG2 for lvl 17+ where your successful cast chance ~50%+ with catastrophic failure rate basically zero (for offensive casting).

i.e. past lvl 17, a carefully played wild mage who has a Ring of Wizardry (double the first lvl spells) has about 10 extra lvl 9 spells to be cast with more than even chance, with very little failure.

This is a significant advantage over any other mage.

I speculate that Neera will mature into a powerful character in late BG2EE -- if she survives!