The regenerating Sorcerer

Klorox

I find the Dragon Disciple extremely attractive as a power gaming class.

They have more HP than any arcane spellchucker, and they get a +1 to CON (I think at level 5).

If you start with an 18 CON, read the Manual of Bodily Health, and get to 5th level, you have a regenerating Sorcerer. That's just awesome!

lunar

That breath weapon is very damaging too! But the downside is pretty steep, you lose a lot of flexibility in spell casting, which was even not that much flexible for sorcerers to begin with.

IkMarc

The thing is with spell casters and HP, they shouldn't be getting hit in the first place... First because they should be casting spells somewhere in the back, and second (in BG2) because that means you haven't cast the right protection spells.

Klorox

While I agree that spell casters shouldn't get hit in the first place, the fact is that they do at times.

I haven't tested it, but the breath weapon might make you a little more vulnerable, as you probably want to move your tanks out of the way.

I know only knowing 4 spells per level is a restriction, but what are you really missing out on? If you know what you're doing, you shouldn't have too many difficult decisions to make.

SpaceInvader

I had a dejavu.

Btw, DD reaches 5 spells/day and, like the Sorcerer, he will end up knowing 5 spells/level.
As regards the regeneration factor, fire resistance, etc, there are already so many threads on it

Klorox

SpaceInvader said:

I had a dejavu.

Btw, DD reaches 5 spells/day and, like the Sorcerer, he will end up knowing 5 spells/level.
As regards the regeneration factor, fire resistance, etc, there are already so many threads on it

Oops, I'm a newb and didn't search.

What's the general consensus of DD vs straight Sorcerer?

Bercon

DD is easier if you don't know the game. From pure power gaming perspective Sorcerer is better. Especially in BG2:ToB where you get 10th lvl spells that all occupy lvl 9 spell slots.

Nifft

Klorox said:

What's the general consensus of DD vs straight Sorcerer?

Less powerful overall but some people find it fun and flavorful.
(Including me.)

Lateralus

lunar said:

That breath weapon is very damaging too! But the downside is pretty steep, you lose a lot of flexibility in spell casting, which was even not that much flexible for sorcerers to begin with.

If your sorcerer is your only spell caster, you will have a bottomless well of scrolls and wands that provide versitility and quantity.

the_spyder

@Klorox - as far as the extra hit points are concerned, non fighter classes don't gain any benefit in the way of Hit points for CON above 16. Therefore, you are potentially wasting STAT points in putting the extra 2 points into CON to get the 18. Seems quite a bit if a waste considering.

Add to that the fact that the number of times my wizard has gotten seriously injured where an extra few hit points would make that much difference and where my entire party wasn't already seriously hurting, I can count on one hand. If you let your mage get that damaged, you are probably hosed no matter what.

So, sure. It's a great gimick, but little more than that in my opinion. I'd personally much rather have a regenerating Fighter than a regenerating caster. And the limits that you have to deal with to compensate for this 'perk' are suitably steep such that I don't think there is any net imbalance here. All IMHO.

TJ_Hooker

Regeneration from 20 CON (or really any CON) is pretty much only useful for healing while resting and travelling, and if you're powergaming you can just turn on "rest until healed" and get pretty much the same effect.

Also, you have to be a human to get a 20 CON DD in BG:EE, which means you're also giving up all the bonuses that you could get if you were an elf (elves are superior sorcerers in pretty much every way), in addition to the penalties associated with the kit.

the_spyder

In advanced, if you played a wizard of CN or CE alignment and you got your 'Special familiar' (5% chance to roll it) you got a quasit. The Quasit bestowed regeneration on to the wizard in addition to the extra hit points and an extra level too boot. Now that was a power gamer combination, unless your DM actually played the Quasit as if it had it's own agenda (which mine did).

Klorox

I know its a waste of stat point since non-warriors don't get any bonus hit points from going above a 16 CON, but the fact is no stats affect a sorcerers spell casting ability.

Sure, a high STR is nice for carrying stuff, a high DEX is nice for using darts and slings, a high CON is nice for the bonus HP, and a high CHA is nice for shopping.

But none of those things really matter, do they? It's already been argued in this thread that a Sorcerer shouldn't

the_spyder

Here's my thinking on that. I'd start off with an 18 DEX right off the bat. Gives excellent ranged bonuses and gives good defence, something that any caster needs.

Then I'd put 16 points into CON. That give decent HP boost. Then I'd go 16 STR so that he can carry stuff around. I might go higher, but 16 seems like a nice number.

That's 50 points right there without having to worry about if the Sorcerer's casting ability is actually getting impacted by low stats. I personally don't like dump stats so the remaining three would be a minimum of 10 making 80.

I'd probably put any remaining points into CHA, not only for stores, but also for reaction adjustment with NPCs and Melicamp type situations.

I'd then use the Tome on one of my fighters where I would get a much bigger lift. That way I am not wasting anything at all.

See, the regeneration doesn't help in combat and only helps when you are resting or traveling. Since Casters have such low hit points anyway (even if they got a boost), healing them takes only a few spells, where it might take a bit more for the fighters. Best to heal the easy ones and let the fighters regenerate. You end up spending a whole lot fewer healing spells and get the same effect.

Which isn't to say you "Can't" do it. Merely that I wouldn't.

Klorox

the_spyder said:

Here's my thinking on that. I'd start off with an 18 DEX right off the bat. Gives excellent ranged bonuses and gives good defence, something that any caster needs.

Then I'd put 16 points into CON. That give decent HP boost. Then I'd go 16 STR so that he can carry stuff around. I might go higher, but 16 seems like a nice number.

That's 50 points right there without having to worry about if the Sorcerer's casting ability is actually getting impacted by low stats. I personally don't like dump stats so the remaining three would be a minimum of 10 making 80.

I'd probably put any remaining points into CHA, not only for stores, but also for reaction adjustment with NPCs and Melicamp type situations.

I'd then use the Tome on one of my fighters where I would get a much bigger lift. That way I am not wasting anything at all.

See, the regeneration doesn't help in combat and only helps when you are resting or traveling. Since Casters have such low hit points anyway (even if they got a boost), healing them takes only a few spells, where it might take a bit more for the fighters. Best to heal the easy ones and let the fighters regenerate. You end up spending a whole lot fewer healing spells and get the same effect.

Which isn't to say you "Can't" do it. Merely that I wouldn't.

Other than Kagain (who already regenerates), the CON tome can not get anybody to a 20 CON.

Not sure I completely understand that sentence, but No stats affect a sorcerers ability to cast spells

Wowo

Klorox said:

the_spyder said:

Here's my thinking on that. I'd start off with an 18 DEX right off the bat. Gives excellent ranged bonuses and gives good defence, something that any caster needs.

Then I'd put 16 points into CON. That give decent HP boost. Then I'd go 16 STR so that he can carry stuff around. I might go higher, but 16 seems like a nice number.

That's 50 points right there without having to worry about if the Sorcerer's casting ability is actually getting impacted by low stats. I personally don't like dump stats so the remaining three would be a minimum of 10 making 80.

I'd probably put any remaining points into CHA, not only for stores, but also for reaction adjustment with NPCs and Melicamp type situations.

I'd then use the Tome on one of my fighters where I would get a much bigger lift. That way I am not wasting anything at all.

See, the regeneration doesn't help in combat and only helps when you are resting or traveling. Since Casters have such low hit points anyway (even if they got a boost), healing them takes only a few spells, where it might take a bit more for the fighters. Best to heal the easy ones and let the fighters regenerate. You end up spending a whole lot fewer healing spells and get the same effect.

Which isn't to say you "Can't" do it. Merely that I wouldn't.

Other than Kagain (who already regenerates), the CON tome can not get anybody to a 20 CON.

Not sure I completely understand that sentence, but No stats affect a sorcerers ability to cast spells

Not technically correct, wisdom effects wish.

Wowo

@Klorox additionally, Yeslick can get regeneration with DUHM and the tome. I think more importantly the tome can give 7-8 additional HP to most fighter type characters which is worth much more than out of combat healing for a mage.

Another option is to give it to one of the squishy characters like Neera (who gets up to 9 HP) or Skie (who gets up to 10 HP) as their constitution is 14-15 which is a sweet spot for a non-warrior using the tome. If you recruit Neera at level 6 I think she has only 19 HP or something so adding 6 HP is about +33% HP which is pretty huge.

Charname can also benefit greatly from the tome if he is a warrior.

I don't really see the point of playing a sorcerer in BG1 considering that Baeloth is a better Sorcerer than what charname can ever be ...

Thrasymachus

I just finished BG1 with a half-elf DD, and it was a blast. The one less spell/day was not a big deal IMO. I don't think I even noticed it. I'm looking forward to using him in BG2.

The extra 2 hp/level was nice, as were the inherent AC and CON bonuses. Dragon breath was fun, and occasionally took out a couple of tough baddies.

Of course, it helped that I rolled amazing stats. I was not planning on playing a DD (just checking out the class), but once I rolled '95' I knew that I had to use him. At the end of the game he had 19/19/20/19/8/19. Son of Bhaal + dragon indeed!

Wowo

As a point of interest almost any non-elf character can have regeneration by combining the +1 tome with Buckleys Buckler from Friendly Arm Inn. Bucklers aren't exactly the best offhand item but it can be equipped while resting or transitioning to get fully healed if you aren't the sort to "rest until healed".

Klorox

Wowo said:

As a point of interest almost any non-elf character can have regeneration by combining the +1 tome with Buckleys Buckler from Friendly Arm Inn. Bucklers aren't exactly the best offhand item but it can be equipped while resting or transitioning to get fully healed if you aren't the sort to "rest until healed".

Unless you're a Sorcerer.

Thrasymachus

Klorox said:

Wowo said:

As a point of interest almost any non-elf character can have regeneration by combining the +1 tome with Buckleys Buckler from Friendly Arm Inn. Bucklers aren't exactly the best offhand item but it can be equipped while resting or transitioning to get fully healed if you aren't the sort to "rest until healed".

Unless you're a Sorcerer.

Or a mage or a kensai or a monk...

Klorox

Thrasymachus said:

Klorox said:

Wowo said:

As a point of interest almost any non-elf character can have regeneration by combining the +1 tome with Buckleys Buckler from Friendly Arm Inn. Bucklers aren't exactly the best offhand item but it can be equipped while resting or transitioning to get fully healed if you aren't the sort to "rest until healed".

Unless you're a Sorcerer.

Or a mage or a kensai or a monk...

I know that, but this thread was supposed to be about sorcerers.

Tyranus

I think DD's just lose too much for their meager bonuses. Regeneration (outside of the amazing 7th level divine spell) is pretty underwhelming.

It's too bad you can't Cloak of Sewers->rest in this game, which does the exact same without all the fuss for almost any character.