Is there a use for Vanilla Bard Song?
DKnight
Member Posts: 307
I am not sure if I want to use Garrick's bard song in battle and so I tried it out. It seemed to do nothing except maybe remove fear. I don't know what improves morale does like said in manual. Does morale affect to hit and rolls?
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In reality though its basically just a free remove fear spell and I personally don't make much use of it.
Edit: If you want a bard song that buffs your allies you need to play the Skald class. It gives a great scaling buff to everyone affected by it. It will however become redundant late into BG2 since you can get the superior Improved Bard Song HLA which is available to all Bards.
Also, Garrick is a very weak NPC and in my opinion not really worth taking. If you have your heart set on using one of the two (pretty crummy) bard NPC's Eldoth is a better choice.
Garrick has less going for him than you think. His strength is low enough to not give him any bonuses in melee, his constitution also gives him no bonus hit points and with a 13 int (the lowest a bard can have) he has very few scribed spells per level (meaning he can't add many spells to his spell book per level of spells) and he has a 35% chance to actually learn a spell meaning that without chugging a bunch of potions of genius you'll be wasting plenty of spell scrolls just trying to get him to learn something.
Tiax is amazing, I'm guessing you haven't used him much or don't really know how to use the synergy of the Cleric/Thief class. First off Tiax comes proficient in Quarterstaff which is the best weapon for backstabbing in the game, this coupled with a strength increasing item like the Big Fisted Belt and the Draw Upon Holy Might spell he will have 21 strength at max level and will utterly decimate anyone he backstabs. Also the synergy of being able to cast Sanctuary and then use the Detect Traps skill means you can scout ahead while finding trap without being attacked by anyone you come across. So for example, in the final battle with Sarevok in the big trapped room you can cast sanctuary walk up and disable all those nasty traps while Sarevok and his goons stand there with their thumbs up their butts and watch you. Also the summon Ghast ability he gets adds some useful fodder and is great to send in against creatures with nasty gaze attacks like Greater Basalisks, since it doesn't effect Ghasts, while your party blasts them from range.
Quayle is also great mainly because Cleric/Illusionist is easily one of the best multiclasses and because being a gnome with 11 Con he has a +3 bonus to saves vs. Wands and Spells. Quayle can cast more spells per day than any other NPC in the game and the synergy between his two classes is great. He can cast Protection From Fire on himself (cleric spell) and Fireshield (Red) (Mage spell) to give himself 130% fire resistance then run into a room full of baddies and blast himself and everyone else with a wand of fire or the fireball spells and heal himself while killing everything else. This is simply one example of the crazy things you can do with access to both divine and arcane spellcasting.
As for Kagain, he is the best tank NPC in the game, hands down. The guy naturally regenerates hit points... pretty tough. With the Big Fisted Belt, Guantlets of Dexterity and his silly high con score his physical stats are as follows: Strength 19, Dexterity 18, Constitution 20. Total beast.
Yeslick is also the best cleric in the game (possibly the whole series). Being a Fighter/Cleric means he can do everything a cleric can do but really contribute in a fight since he gets more than 1 attack per round unlike other clerics. He is also a dwarf with a high con score giving him lots of hit points and a bonus to his saving throws meaning it's very difficult to take him out of the fight. His innate dispel magic ability is the best innate ability in the game and his proficiency in maces means he can use the stupifier one of the best weapons in the game. Bring him along, cast Draw Upon Holy Might and watch him stun lock Sarevok for the entire fight.
What can Garrick do? Remove Fear for free, shoot his Crossbow mediocrely with 1 atack per round and barely cast mage spells? Cool...
In reality its all subjective and arguing about it is pointless as I'm guessing that each character when made-"had a use" in most ways. I was thought to believe that if the character works for you and you at the same time like them then why not.
As for those 3, its interesting and very cool that they happen to not only be strong characters but from what you were saying-very powerful. I used to argue with one of my friends who said jan is the worst character in bg2. I mentioned that the only reason said person said that about jan was because 1-they don't like non-fighter classes, and 2-hate gnomes, halflings and other small races. I don't understand it but everyone has their tastes, ya know?
Bards are best suited for wand duty and handling utility spells or extra buff spells, since mages are going to have all their spells tied up in buffs/debuffs.
Unfortunately, 60% of a bards actual value in DnD isn't represented in BG, due to being heavily combat focused, and the fact that they were nerfed (Bard song is supposed to be duration based (1 round/level and 10ft/level), not something they have to maintain constantly, and they're supposed to be able to master dual-wielding, since all rogues are just as proficient in it as warriors are (the blade is actually supposed to have *** two weapon at creation)), on top of having most of their usefulness cut out due to lack of the Non-combat proficiency system, the easy at which items can be identified, and a lack of stat-based responses (ala Torment), which would make Bards, with their broad stat spread, GOD CHARACTERS.
He also gains lore VERY quickly (by level 4, he should be able to identify anything non-cursed just by looking at it) and is basically a walking anti-fear spell (and for the record it also gives a +1 luck bonus, which is basically +1 hit/saves).
Not that I use bard song very often...they're much better suited murdering the enemy with their superior arcane-boosted melee capabilities. (though since range is king in BG1, using darts, bows or X-bow of speed is also a very valid combat style, though less useful since str bonuses were removed).
@ZanathKariashi I actually disagree with a lot of what you're saying. I was mistaken and 13 int gives 55% chance to learn spells but that's not really enough in my opinion. I personally don't like having to wait to find or buy a potion in order to scribe the new scroll I found let alone waiting until I've gathered up enough scrolls to learn that warrant using a potion. I wouldn't use a potion to learn one spell, for example. So, nearly half the time Garrick is wasting scrolls when trying to learn them and many of the scrolls in the game that are new to EE only appear once. You botch the roll to learn it and Garrick can never cast that spell.
I also disagree that bards should focus on utility and extra buffing spells. One of the perks of the class is that they level almost twice as fast as wizards, so if you use a fireball spell with a bard it will deal more damage than one cast by a wizard earlier in the game. Doing this can cause some pretty devastating damage at the earlier levels when baddies can't really handle such a large chunck of damage. Also, many classes can use wands and many of those classes/class combos are much better than Garrick.
Eldoth will gain lore at the same rate and is a more useful NPC but using the identify spell or going to a merchant works just as well. Garricks lore isn't really something that can't very easily be replicated by other means. I do agreee it is somewhat convenient but not so much as to warrant bringing him along. Also, a vanilla bard is really not a good choice to be sending into melee, at least not in BG:EE, and especially not Garrick with 9 Con. The lack of AC increasing items that allow spellcasting is very limited in BG:EE and with 1 pip in shortswords and a possible 1 pip in two-weapon fighting garrick will max out at 2 attacks per round with massive penalties to hit with both his main hand and off-hand. He is really only useful in the back line using a ranged weapon but even there he's not amazing by any stretch.
Bards will at most, result in 1 level of difference in BG, occasionally bumping 2 briefly,..in BG2 they move up to 2 roughly, and for exactly 1 level, 3, after which mages over take them quickly, due to a F'd up spell progression (IWD is the only infinity engine game to properly implement 2nd edition bard spell progression).
Damage spells are worthless to EVER memorize due to the massive amount of DD wands BG and BG2 throw at you, so the bard still benefits from handling buffs, since they'll last a round or two longer. (Wands also aren't prevented from working by wearing armor, allowing you to blast/debuff enemies while being gear out for battle).
Bards have less casting capacity, so overall a mage will still do more in every way then a bard would (especially since BG doesn't use the proper spell progression for bards...another nerf I left out above..they're supposed to get casting all the way up to 8th, and at 5th or less are just as good as mages...just slightly slower at gaining their spell capacity.
And while on paper Bards suck at combat, in practice, they murder everything only slightly worse then a F/M does but as a single fast-leveling class, mostly due to lack of natural extra attacks (it's less noticeable at low levels..but you start feeling it near cap) (When dual-wielding speed weapons, there is no appreciable difference between a bard and F/M, aside from lack of access to high level spells (which bards were also supposed to get), but they get up to 6th, which gives the all-mighty IH and access to Tenser's, which is handy to have for those few -10 AC boss enemies, that are harder to hit...most mooks though will be torn through like wet tissue without needing any thac0 buffs).
Eldoth also isn't available until the game is almost over......if they put him and Skie available earlier in the game, I might concur, since I actually like to use Eldoth, but without mods, he just comes too late...by then, you've got your party and there's no reason to use anyone else unless someone gets chunked and you need a replacement.
BG grossly F'd up bards by making it difficult (but not impossible) to stand on their own, and instead are relegated to being a misc party member who brings a little of everything to group without excelling at anything, and managed to F up their unique ability so it doesn't even work correctly.
I don't feel the bard class sucks in BG:EE just that the two NPC bards do. As for the abilities of the 2nd edition class I'm not familiar with that since all of my DnD experience (mechanic wise) comes from 3rd, and 3.5 editions.
As for the availability of Eldoth that's not exactly true. You can recruit Eldoth in the Cloakwood which isn't exactly when "the game is almost over." In fact I've gone to the Cloakwood to recruit Faldorn and Yeslcik when I was level 3 before and I'm sure others have done so earlier. The battles with Mulahey and the mooks in the bandit tent aren't so tough as to be impossible for a low level party. If you want Eldoth badly enough (I'm not sure why you would) you can recruit him fairly early in the game.
Yes, the fact that most of the enemies are low enough to die or be heavily wounded is cool and all..but you could've gotten equal or better results with 1st or 2nd level spells.
Haste is one the best spell in BG, bar none...not quite as op as it's big brother, it still adds a HUGE amount of damage (depending on party size), and does so for a fair period of time and since the fatigue penalty in BG is a joke (-1 luck non-stacking...OOOOOH..it hurts...just turn on Bard song), more hastes is never a bad call, also their higher level makes them slightly better at dispelling.
Web of course, due to it's save penalty, is an I-Win spell vs everything except spiders. Having extra sleeps or blind/spooks is always nice, as you move through the game. 4th....doesn't...really have a whole lot to write home about...but also lacks any obviously useful DD spells and you only get 1 slot..so..not much of a game changer.
The totemic druid is supposed to transform into their spirit animals, that grow in HD and str as he levels, rather then summon them.
The Avenger is supposed to get a free extra proficiency point at creation, but suffers a large reaction penalty due to being an Anti-social dick (and nothing else beyond what a druid gets).
The Shapeshifter is supposed to be able to turn into any natural creature they're familiar with (at level 1), with equal or less HD then they have, and at 7, can transform just part of their body instead of full transformation, allowing them stronger stats while still being able to cast and benefit from most equipment (though likely sacrificing the ability to wield weapons). They can transform as often as they like, but after 3 uses without rest they have to save or be stuck in their transformed state for 24 hours...after which they have to make a save to transform back or they're stuck for another 24 hours..and if they fail 3 in a row, it becomes permanent.
The Blade's offensive spin is wrong (supposed to take 1 round to cast, and be a next hit, no save (if they have equal or less HD then the Blade) fear that is lost if they're damaged before striking), and defensive spin is supposed to force any enemy that swings at them in melee to save or take damage equal to half the Blade's level, but any successful hit ends the spin). They aren't supposed to be able to sing at all (should've disabled their song tab, similar to the way the paladin kits did, and replace epic bard song with Whirlwind attack, like they did with the Swashbuckler), no bardic lore at all, no casting from wands or scrolls. They're supposed to have weapon display (buffs allies by +1 hit/damage, debuffs enemies for -1 hit/damage, but requires them to do nothing but that, and it only works once per battle)), start with maxed two-weapon, and the ability to make called shots with thrown weapons.
Skald are supposed to be able to wear armor up to plate, fight while singing, no wands, a chance to learn penalty for spells (20%), their lore is only supposed to work on weapons and armor or battle potions, their caster level is supposed to be 1 less then normal. The ability to sing an alternate counter song (chance to dispel the effects of charms/commands/Power-Words and gives a bonus to saves vs those kinds of spells, reduces the Skald/Bard's speed by half while maintaining the song) (Counter-song is very physically draining however, and deals 1 temporary Con damage per attempt (but it can be maintained as long as desired at no penalty...Bards are also supposed to have this ability)).
Bard song should be a 3 round cast that lasts for 1 round/level and affects a radius of 10ft/level. (Granting +1 luck is fine...since it's basically all 3 effects in one).
Jesters are supposed to be limited to daggers, clubs, staves and slings, no chain mail, no lore bonus, +5 to skills, Constant +1 luck bonus (self only), +1 AC, immunity to insanity and confusion, and any enemy attempting to mentally dominate or read their mind has to save or be confused, regardless of if the charm attempt succeeds or fails. And their song is supposed to be a taunt that forces enemies who fail their save (-2 penalty) to attack the jester with complete disregard for tactics or common sense (but doesn't work on enemies with lower then 6 or higher then 16 int), until they kill the jester or save twice in a row vs the taunt (requires that the target be able to see, hear, and understand the jester, creatures that don't speak the same language get a +4 bonus to saves due to not fully understanding the taunt).
The berserker's list of immunities is WAY too long..it's only supposed to block sleep, charm/dom, and command spells, Give a +4 save bonus vs being held or paralyzed for the duration, and blocks 1 failed fear save but ends the rage immediately. While raging they have to save per round or go completely berserk for a round, they cannot benefit from any form of healing while raging, but they also aren't required to save vs instant-death effects until after the rage ends (But at the end of the rage have to make all saves they put off at once and suffer any effects accordingly). And like all kits, they're supposed to be limited to Specialization only.
Similarly, the Barbarian's rage should have the same list of immunities as above. Though their rages are more controlled and lack chance of going completely berserk. Still prevents healing or death-saves until the rage ends.
The Kensai is mostly correct, except they're supposed to be able to equip bracers, they're limited to specialization, but choose 1 weapon they have specialized in at creation to gain a free 3rd point (Mastery). Their Kai, and extra hit/damage only applies to attacks with their mastered weapon type.
The Archer is mostly correct (though it's technically a Fighter kit, that rangers can use), except Bows are NOT supposed to benefit from extra attacks from warrior levels or specialization, They're limited to specialization, but can go up to 3 pips in Bows (JUST bows), and their specialization damage bonus only applies to enemies within 15 ft (their class bonus though applies to all successful hits). The archer instead gains a full extra attack at 7 when wielding a bow (JUST bows) and wearing light armor, and an additional extra attack (total of 4 for using a non-speed bow) if they spend one round preparing their position, which lasts until they move (also requires light armor). But on the other hand, they can only be proficient in melee weapons and can never benefit from extra attacks from warrior levels.
The Stalker just gets a bonus to stealth (requires armor of 6 base AC or higher (aka, light armor)), and starts with the ability to track, but also requires a minimum of 14 int, in addition to everything else. Technically he also gets a bunch of bonuses related to conversation, but are completely useless in BG, due to it's utter lack of skill based responses.
The beastmaster is pretty much 100% correct, except that he's supposed to have a number of permanent animal companions whose total HD don't exceed his own. Giving him higher level summon spells in lower level slots was a reasonable compromise.
The Bounty hunter is pretty much correct, but he's supposed to be able to choose what attributes his traps have (since he makes them from scratch) and after 12th level can use spell scrolls in the construction to add spell-based effects to a trap, but also makes it 25% more difficult to set. He's also supposed to get a bonus to reaction checks when seeking information about people's whereabouts, habits, etc, and is mildly proficient in poison use. Can add poisons to both his traps or weapons, but otherwise lacks the assassin's specialization at it.
The assassin is supposed to get 20 skills per level, instead of 15, poison use works pretty much correct (the uses per day replacing the need to keep a supply of poisons) Can be proficient in any weapon. And gains a bonus to saves vs poison, starting at +1 and gaining and additional one per 4 levels. But suffers a reaction penalty when dealing with non-evil due to the stigma associated with assassins (even if the assassin himself is good or neutral) (And are also experts at identifying poisons with less risk of being affected, not that it would be useful in BG, and if the NCP system was implemented, they also get a bonus to poison making, and herbalism).
The swashbuckler is supposed to be a master of single weapon style, and when using any of their 1hded melee weapons with their off-hand free, use the fighter's thac0 table, and gain an additional attack, they also gain a free bonus weapon proficiency at creation. They gain double the AC bonus for single weapon style, and can choose to apply some or all of it to their damage rolls, instead of increasing AC. They require a minimum of 13 str, dex, int, cha. Their backstab never increases (limited to x2), and they only get 20 skill points per level, due to more focus on combat. They have the ability to attempt to disarm an opponent (+4 save), which reduces their thac0 and damage by 6 for 4 rounds (probably 1 use per 5 or 6 levels, 1 at the start, if implemented in BG). (Only works on humanoid enemies).
The cleric kits aren't kits at all and are just made up garbage (they don't even follow the proper rules for Mythos priests). They're for all intents and purposes, Mythos priests, but don't include the altered spell-casting and equipment rules. The monk is the closest thing to a cleric kit currently in game (Warrior Monk...but is only tentatively similar in that they both focus on unarmed combat...the warrior monk just gets lesser spell casting instead of Ki powers, and can wear light armor).
Mages of course have no kits at all....even the wild mage is a specialist, which are actually completely seperate classes from basic mages, and could take a kit on top of being a specialist as long as they had the required spell school access the kit required...unless the kit specifically says otherwise.
The specialists don't have their proper bonuses/penalties or opposed schools. Divination (Conjuration), Conjuration (Evocation, Greater Divination (5th lvl and above)), Invoker (Conjuration, Enchantment), Enchantment (Necromancy, Evocation), Alteration (Abjuration, Necromancy), Illusion (Evocation, Necromancy, Abjuration), Abjuration (Illusion, Necromancy), Necromancy (Illusion, Enchantment).
Benefits for mage specialists, +20% chance to learn spells of your school, -15% learn chance for spells of other schools. -1 save penalty to spells you cast from your school. +1 save bonus to spells targeting you from your school. 1 free spell of your school per level, up to the highest level you can currently cast.
The Inquisitor is mostly correct, except he shouldn't be immune to hold (just charm), and instead of truesight, he has a permanently active detect illusion that starts at 5+ 5/level, to a maximum of 95%.
The undead hunter though is supposed to be almost identical to the inquisitor, except he can turn undead (and does equal to his level, instead of 2 less, like other paladins), gains the same dispel ability inquisitors do, but 1 level slower, and is immune to hold/paralysis. And they're supposed to get a free holy sword (Purifier type (+3 damage, hits as +5 when wielded by a paladin, hits as +2 and has no abilities when wielded by non-paladins), +2 to effective level for turning, +10 damage to undead, (50% magic resistance, chance to dispel on hit, when wielded by a paladin))) at lvl 6.
The cavalier is actually a fighter kit, that paladins can optionally use, and is specialized in mounted combat. They're immune to fear, have a constant 10ft aura that confers immunity to fear to allies while they're in range, or removes it when they come back into range, and gain a +1 hit/damage bonus to all weapons they're proficient with per 6 levels (max of +3) (gains +2 every 3 levels for damage dealt by Lances, maximum of +12). He also gets a +4 save bonus vs all mind affecting spells or abilities. Can ONLY wear plate and full plate, no lesser armors, regardless of their bonuses. (and starts with a free war-horse...if those were implemented)
With that said, thanks for the info, it was certainly an interesting read.