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Are Skalds any good?

I was just horsin' around, and I rolled a 97 for stats. I never got that high before.

Now I feel like I'll be short changing myself if I don't play her out.
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Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    "Any good" is very vague. Can you finish the game with one? Absolutely. Easily, probably. Is it a powergaming choice? Probably not.
  • WolkWolk Member Posts: 279
    It's song is good if you use it, so get a great party and they will be better with it.
  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 927
    edited June 2013
    Yeah, I thought a party of warriors would really benefit from these guys
  • WolkWolk Member Posts: 279
    Just don't expect your PC to be the badass getting the most kills or blasting things, he will just stand there and sing while the real badass kick even more ass then before
  • GishGish Member Posts: 74
    You're character will be awesome...more General Patton awesome and less Braveheart awesome. I'd go for it friend. If you really wanted to get technical, add the bonus damage and the damage avoided to figure out your guy and you'll find he is generally balanced with other midranged characters. I'd switch between keeping song up and casting spells that effect the enemy (hold, sleep, charm, etc).
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    Your guy would be awesome as a Buff Monster. He can buff the party, throw out a little offensive magic, and play his Lute of Awesomesauce. Physical Combat is so important in the first game he really helps.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    What about in SoA?
  • MurrayConfederacyMurrayConfederacy Member Posts: 188
    The song is the strongest bard song as it is pretty much the same as the epic bard song ability. However when you get to that stage in ToB you are stuck with a bard that just has a +1 to hit and +1 to damage.
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    He's plenty useful in SoA. He only loses his uniqueness when you get epic bard stuff. But, he helps you get there.
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    Skalds rock. I play through all the BG saga with one and by ToB, thanks to Use Any Item and a 19 STR via tome he was rocking Carsomyr and not too far behind Minsc and Sarevok in kills. I hardly ever put him to sing.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065

    That's one thing they definitely need to fix in EE2....make class specific epic songs, like RRB did, (and disable the blade's ability to sing entirely, while replacing epic song with Whirlwind attack, like the they did with the Swashbuckler's assassination).

    RRB did a bunch of things right, and that was certainly one of them.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    arcane + wands + invisible song + bows

    not bad
  • FlashheartFlashheart Member Posts: 125
    Gotta love Bards in general.

    Sing a song (Skald is a good song too - too good for BG1). Fire off a wand or spell or a single attack in the round, sing again straight away, and the song will carry on without breaking.

    Free buffing, fast levelling, Pick-pocketing Loremeisters.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Skalds are great, but they are very passive (sing a lot, can't do much else - unlike Blades). If that doesn't bother you (and in a full party, you have enough "stuff to do" anyway), you sure got a nice roll for a nice kit.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    They need to make them PnP accurate and let them sing while fighting (3 round to cast, continues until they take damage as long as they're in combat or lasting 1 round per level outside of combat).

    Of course they also need to remove casting from wands and scrolls (can still learn spells from them) from all the bard kits. While there are kits that can use them, blades and jesters can't, and Skald only learn to cast from scrolls, later (though skald suck at casting due to their caster level and spell progression being 1 level behind a normal bards...but they can wear up to plate and use any weapon or equipment a fighter can, so....it balances out since they're supposed to stay engaged in melee combat to keep their battle-song going (it's not inspiring if they're not on the front line ripping into the enemy).
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    edited June 2013

    They need to make them PnP accurate and let them sing while fighting (3 round to cast, continues until they take damage as long as they're in combat or lasting 1 round per level outside of combat).

    Of course they also need to remove casting from wands and scrolls (can still learn spells from them) from all the bard kits. While there are kits that can use them, blades and jesters can't, and Skald only learn to cast from scrolls, later (though skald suck at casting due to their caster level and spell progression being 1 level behind a normal bards...but they can wear up to plate and use any weapon or equipment a fighter can, so....it balances out since they're supposed to stay engaged in melee combat to keep their battle-song going (it's not inspiring if they're not on the front line ripping into the enemy).

    that would made so much better kit than plain bg2 kit
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Somewhere a long the line they f'd up the roles....

    PnP Blades have no actual skill at combat, they're a support class...they're basically circus performers, with a flashy style that can potentially intimidate the opponent and inspire allies (Weapon display, +1 hit/morale allies, -1 hit/morale enemies for as long as the blade maintains the display, only works once per battle, and doesn't affect enemies with more HD then the blade), they're generally ambidextrous (maxed two weapon at creation), adept at throwing weapons (can make called shots with darts, thrown daggers and axes), their offensive spin is an intense wind up attack that if it hits will terrify the opponent (takes 1 round to cast, and the next melee hit causes a no-save fear (unless the target is higher HD then the blade, in which case they get a save), but is lost if the blade is struck any time between beginning the cast and landing the blow), their defensive spin is a high speed blur of blade-work that makes it difficult for enemies to strike and can result result in damage, but is interrupt if the blade is hit (raises AC and any enemy attempting to strike the blade in melee must save or take damage equal to 1/2 the blades level, disrupted when damaged). They don't sing (their weapon display serves a similar purpose), have no lore bonus, don't cast from scrolls or wands, and have a 10% penalty when attempting to learn new spells due to lack of focus on magic.

    Skald on the other hand, as above are heavy duty warriors (2nd only to the Gallant in terms of melee ability) who sing inspiring battle songs while engaging the enemy, but suffer heavily in their spell casting and have a massive 20% penalty for learning new spells (Skald are illiterate at level 1 (they come from cultures with primarily oral traditions), and have to gain a level of experience while in a culture of literature, before they can even begin to learn magic which is why their progression is at least 1 level behind a normal bards). And technically their lore is only supposed to apply to weapons, armor, and items used directly for battle, such as certain potions, but..that's pretty much all there is to identify anyway in BG.

    Also, even the bard doesn't work right. His song should take 3 rounds to cast, and then last for 1 round per level, allowing him to do other things in the mean time.


    And the PnP jester is actually bit stronger then the BG jester...but since his "song" actually taunts the enemy to come kill him, he needs the extra AC and constant luck bonus to survive, especially since he can't wear higher then leather and is limited to darts, clubs, slings, staves, daggers for weapons.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    According to what @ZanathKariashi says, I would complement:

    Blades: Even though they can swing a blade in a flashy manner, they're still bards nonetheless . However , it doesn't mean they can't learn how to fight well with experience . My blade starts with short sword and bow proficiency , which he learned their use from the guards at candlekeep.

    Skalds: Indeed , it would be nicer if they could wear heavy armor , but since BG skald can cast spells and read well (he was raised in Candlekeep , after all) , it's a pretty balanced class.

    Jesters: They're pretty fun to play/roleplay with, and their bardsong is actually balanced , too - after all, powerful enemies won't easily fall to a +4 save confusion.

  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 927
    The best PnP Bard kit was Jonguleur.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited June 2013
    The problem is, their offensive spin grants an extra attack (and pretty much specialization AND Kai), which is EXTREMELY powerful (and isn't something they're supposed to have at all). And the fact that their song is just as good as the regular bards until 15+, and they can still do everything else a bard can, and only suffer a minor lore and PP penalty (and at epic levels, they get the same epic song all the bards do, trivializing the skald in the end game). (this is berserker's enrage level of brokenness, without penalty)

    Meanwhile the skald is gimped due to not being able to sing while fighting......they over buff the blade (with no disadvantages..and no nerfing two more or less useless skills is NOT a disadvantage...just like limiting a berserker to proficiency only in range is a joke compensation for how OP their rage's immunties are), and nerf the skald, buff the jester, and nerf the bard (No counter song, no ability to max dual-wielding, their song sucks and doesn't work correctly (they're supposed to get to choose to apply +1 hit, +1 saves, or +2 morale....BG just give them the morale bonus, until 15+ which gives +1 luck instead)

    (His (jester) song becomes ridiculous later when every enemy in range is have to save at +2 vs confusion, save vs slow (-4 thac0, +4 AC, halves speed) (15+), and save at +2 vs disabled (unable to act and auto-hit) (21+), every round vs all 3 effects).
  • WanderonWanderon Member Posts: 1,418
    Are bards any good?

    Indeed! I find them tender enough to just sauté lightly with some turnip greens and onion and serve with some crusty dark bread and a nice Chianti...
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    edited June 2013
    @ZanathKariashi Blades are not actually that OP when you consider that they do not benefit from haste effects during Offensive Spin. +1 APR is nothing when compared to x2 APR from Improved Haste, though the max-damage effect is still useful. Blades are certainly a powerful kit with little downsides, but they are not as powerful as people tend to make them out to be.

    Bards in general seem very poorly implemented in BG. I'm sure there's mods out there to address the issue, and add some much needed distinction and complexity to the various kits. If there was ever a class that deserves a lot of attention to its details, it's Bards.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Actually, they do...it's a bug, but they do get double attacks under IH.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    I suppose that makes them more competitive, then. Still nowhere near a fighter, of course, but definitely the best Bard by far.

    Though it seems that this is a bug indeed and not just "weird design" as with IH + items that grant Free Action.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited June 2013
    They aren't a fighter, they're a Fighter/Mage, as a fastest leveling, single class (and would be even more broken if bards had proper 2nd Ed high level spellcasting (up to 8th level)). That alone makes them broken...hell even normal bards with their gimp'd * two weapon and dual-speed weapons can equal fighters in overall killing %^$^, since number of attacks per round is STUPIDLY powerful, thac0 is almost a non-issue. The fighter's strength isn't his potential for extra starting str (which can be replaced by spells or items) or high thac0 (most enemies just don't have that good of a AC), it's his ability to get natural bonus attacks...the rest is just icing on the cake.
    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    I had a skald in a pretty power gamey group. With 4 APR on 3 characters, 3 on 1 and 2 on the 5th it added up to 34 bonus damage/round and put most of the parties AC out of reach of most enemies.

    However, even in this extreme example the contribution wasn't that big compared to the 80+ damage/round that other characters were doing (before adding the song). Sure, the Skald brought other things to the table but nothing special over what the other characters brought (all dual classes).

    I'd even say the Skald brought less utility to the group than any other character, add this to inferior damage and maybe a wasted party slot. The saving grace is the difficult to quantify THAC0 bonus and AC bonus. Maybe worth it. Maybe not.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    edited June 2013

    They aren't a fighter, they're a Fighter/Mage, as a fastest leveling, single class (and would be even more broken if bards had proper 2nd Ed high level spellcasting (up to 8th level)). That alone makes them broken...hell even normal bards with their gimp'd * two weapon and dual-speed weapons can equal fighters in overall killing %^$^, since number of attacks per round is STUPIDLY powerful, thac0 is almost a non-issue. The fighter's strength isn't his potential for extra starting str (which can be replaced by spells or items) or high thac0 (most enemies just don't have that good of a AC), it's his ability to get natural bonus attacks...the rest is just icing on the cake.

    I suppose they have their advantages in the early to mid-game, because they level so quickly. Once fighters (or worse, fighter/mage duals or multis) catch up around lvl13+, things do not look so good. Blades will still be 1 APR behind due to only having proficiency in weapons, and that is under Offensive Spin (2 APR otherwise). Max damage is nice, of course, especially since it lasts more than twice as long as Kai, but in the long run, consistent APR tends to pull its weight better. THAC0 isn't very relevant, but HP is. There is a lot of incidental magic damage flying around, and the more HP, the better. Pickpocketing and lore are quite useless. Spike Trap is good in certain circumstances, Assassination is often gimped by backstab-immunity. UAI is okay-ish, though not terribly useful aside from SNT. All in all: they are certainly a great Bard, the best by far. Bards, however, are not terribly useful in general.

    Note: these arguments are all based on "objective" fighting power, i.e. no convenience, RP, or similar concerns (which may be more important to many people). Keep that in mind! Also, I assume adequate difficulty settings through mods/in-game settings; if you go with a vanilla game on "core" or less, small differences don't matter. Any class can beat the game with a hand tied behind their back. Heck, a naked Half-Ogre mage with 3 INT could do it.
  • DrusycDrusyc Member Posts: 44



    I suppose they have their advantages in the early to mid-game, because they level so quickly. Once fighters (or worse, fighter/mage duals or multis) catch up around lvl13+, things do not look so good. Blades will still be 1 APR behind due to only having proficiency in weapons, and that is under Offensive Spin (2 APR otherwise). Max damage is nice, of course, especially since it lasts more than twice as long as Kai, but in the long run, consistent APR tends to pull its weight better. THAC0 isn't very relevant, but HP is. There is a lot of incidental magic damage flying around, and the more HP, the better. Pickpocketing and lore are quite useless. Spike Trap is good in certain circumstances, Assassination is often gimped by backstab-immunity. UAI is okay-ish, though not terribly useful aside from SNT. All in all: they are certainly a great Bard, the best by far. Bards, however, are not terribly useful in general.

    Note: these arguments are all based on "objective" fighting power, i.e. no convenience, RP, or similar concerns (which may be more important to many people). Keep that in mind! Also, I assume adequate difficulty settings through mods/in-game settings; if you go with a vanilla game on "core" or less, small differences don't matter. Any class can beat the game with a hand tied behind their back. Heck, a naked Half-Ogre mage with 3 INT could do it.

    Could we not say that weaving low-cast time spells into their rounds can add some fictional APR when timed correctly? Bards have the advantage of being able to attack competently and wield magic; they can easily add 10-25 damage per round with a Magic Missiles or land a killing blow on fire/acid sensitive enemies the instant they go down.

    I'd argue that bards fare much better with special micromanagement, especially because they can remain in the thick of things and fling spells to suit the occasion as long as they haven't used their spell for that round.

    While not as deadly and forthcoming as the fighter or mage, they certainly make better use of a single slot by fulfilling both roles (if not dual/multi-classing in the first place) quite effectively.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    I like Skalds, especially next to a dart-thrower or an archer.
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