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Summon woodland being is such an amazing spell

Man Druids are way better than I thought.

I summon it it and just starts casting all these awesome spells, hold animal, hold person, domination, mass heal, confusion, and even dimension door.

And you can have multiple at once

Oh its so great

Comments

  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Yep. Nothing like a 4th level spell that can cast 5th level spells.

    Seriously that does not make sense. Not that I'm complaining, mind.
  • FubbyFubby Member Posts: 189
    Call lightning, insect swarm, and Dispell magic are all pretty good spells before 4th level.

    Aside from that they didnt really get much though
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Call lightning is garbage.......really long cast time, a long time between bolts, and only works outside. Yes, it's reasonably useful in BG1, since you spend more time outside during misc questing and travel and by the time you get it, you should be able to end most battles before the first bolt can strike, but all the main plot battles take place indoors, rendering it useless and the majority of BG2 and ToB is indoors or underground, barring a few joke encounters outside that aren't worth the spells or could be finished before the druid gets done casting.

    Insect swarm is ok-ish..not great...but better then some of their other options.....and dispel magic is given to all casters (Dispel is about the only thing I memorize for 3rd level, since other classes get much better 3rd level spells...so..it's not because the spell is good to have, but because other people simply have better).
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    In fairness, they also get Armor of Faith, which is amazing, but doesn't really come into its own until 10th level or so. It's only 1st level, but becomes good around the time you get 5th level spells. Odd, but that's how these things go sometimes.

    Find Traps and Slow Poison can also be nice, although both have perfectly functional, if less convenient, substitutes. Druids can also heal, which is really good if you don't like resting after every encounter.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Druids are basically the only healer. Their other spells just aren't really good enough to not take healing abilities, because other classes get better debuffs or the like.

    Again.....Druids definitely have a place in group, but they're like a Bard.....they don't really excell at anything, but are able to support other classes and casters very well, since they can take the spells that the other classes REALLY don't want to have to take due to having better options vs most situations.
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    BG1 only:

    Insect Plague is hands down the best spell available in BG1 and its exclusive to Druids who can cast up to 3 per day. Seriously, its a huge area of effect, damage over time spell that prevents spell casting and causes morale failure. It's basically an "I win" button.

    If you want a caster Druid then you go for the Avenger kit. Between Lightning Bolt and Call Lightning you have the 2 best single target damage spells in the game. You have some of the best crowd control with web and call woodland being. The best healing. CL 10 dispel magic. 15% Dr with shield of faith (5% more than what cleric gets).

    Berserker/Druid dual build is the melee option with dual scimitars - frostbrand of course - creating a melee god. In a recent SCS run the berserker 6/Druid build got 21% of experience compared to only 15% for the berserker 6/cleric. No favouritism for either build.

    In Bg1 I'd say that either of the above builds is right up there in power alongside the most cookie cutter builds that can be imagined.

    I doubt I'd play a Druid in BG2 though.
  • BobCBobC Member Posts: 47
    edited June 2013

    Druids are basically the only healer. Their other spells just aren't really good enough to not take healing abilities, because other classes get better debuffs or the like.

    Again.....Druids definitely have a place in group, but they're like a Bard.....they don't really excell at anything, but are able to support other classes and casters very well, since they can take the spells that the other classes REALLY don't want to have to take due to having better options vs most situations.

    1. Honestly, who goes single class druid anyway? If you're not picking a kit, it's MUCH better to go fighter/druid anyway since Druids can gain levels fast, especially at the beginning of BG2.

    2. Druids gets access to two interesting spells that no other class can obtain. Insect Plague destroys mages and Iron Skins makes you an awesome tank. Both of these skills are extremely useful when during the later parts of BG2

    3. Not to mention conjure Fire Elemental and Summon Woodland Beings You get access to these summons before Clerics and Wizards can get that powerhouse summons.


    Nevertheless, I agree with you on one thing, Clerics are better overall (and mages are on a whole nother level). Especially since they get better higher level spells. Perhaps druids would be more useful if Clerics didn't exist.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I think ZK was only referring to (unkitted) druid spells before 4th level. After that point, their spell list improved by an order of magnitude. Call Woodland Beings is sort of the poster child for that, what with being a 4th level spell that can cast multiple 5th level spells.
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    Wowo said:

    BG1 only:

    Insect Plague is hands down the best spell available in BG1 and its exclusive to Druids who can cast up to 3 per day. Seriously, its a huge area of effect, damage over time spell that prevents spell casting and causes morale failure. It's basically an "I win" button.

    If you want a caster Druid then you go for the Avenger kit. Between Lightning Bolt and Call Lightning you have the 2 best single target damage spells in the game. You have some of the best crowd control with web and call woodland being. The best healing. CL 10 dispel magic. 15% Dr with shield of faith (5% more than what cleric gets).

    Berserker/Druid dual build is the melee option with dual scimitars - frostbrand of course - creating a melee god. In a recent SCS run the berserker 6/Druid build got 21% of experience compared to only 15% for the berserker 6/cleric. No favouritism for either build.

    In Bg1 I'd say that either of the above builds is right up there in power alongside the most cookie cutter builds that can be imagined.

    I doubt I'd play a Druid in BG2 though.

    I would not say this is a "I win" button that is used often, mostly for this reason : there is only a handful of hard mage fights in BG1 (Davaeorn, Kahrk, Semaj and perhaps some of the ice island mages),.

    The true I win button is either Berserk (Berserker or Barbarian) or Cavalier's immunities to fear or to hold for inquisitors.

    Fear, confusion and hold are the most dangerous spells in BG1 and many characters have not immunities to these spells.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    This spell is overpowered. The creature you summon can cast spells you normally can not cast at that lvl. She is terrible at melee and is very fragile but can cast a lot of spells! In this, a lvl 4 spell automaticaly becomes a lot of extra spells, even higher lvl 5 spell, that can be cast in addition to your normal spell casting.

    I would either reduce the Nymph creature's spells OR impose no spell casting while the summon is active. The druid momentarily cuts off her personal magical connection with nature so that nature's ally can castmore spells instead of the druid. That would balance the spell IMHO and you might not want to cast it at higher lvls, when your own spells are far more potent. At low lvls, the creature is a much better caster than the druid: nature cares for the weak druid and casts spells instead of the druid. Like he is s vulnerable hatchling, puppy, kitten etc. When he is risen to sufficient lvls, the druid can and will handle his spells better.
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064

    Wowo said:

    BG1 only:

    Insect Plague is hands down the best spell available in BG1 and its exclusive to Druids who can cast up to 3 per day. Seriously, its a huge area of effect, damage over time spell that prevents spell casting and causes morale failure. It's basically an "I win" button.

    If you want a caster Druid then you go for the Avenger kit. Between Lightning Bolt and Call Lightning you have the 2 best single target damage spells in the game. You have some of the best crowd control with web and call woodland being. The best healing. CL 10 dispel magic. 15% Dr with shield of faith (5% more than what cleric gets).

    Berserker/Druid dual build is the melee option with dual scimitars - frostbrand of course - creating a melee god. In a recent SCS run the berserker 6/Druid build got 21% of experience compared to only 15% for the berserker 6/cleric. No favouritism for either build.

    In Bg1 I'd say that either of the above builds is right up there in power alongside the most cookie cutter builds that can be imagined.

    I doubt I'd play a Druid in BG2 though.

    I would not say this is a "I win" button that is used often, mostly for this reason : there is only a handful of hard mage fights in BG1 (Davaeorn, Kahrk, Semaj and perhaps some of the ice island mages),.

    The true I win button is either Berserk (Berserker or Barbarian) or Cavalier's immunities to fear or to hold for inquisitors.

    Fear, confusion and hold are the most dangerous spells in BG1 and many characters have not immunities to these spells.
    The morale failure is potent too, I remember rooms full of scared doppelgängers running around going tick tick tick while they got mopped up.

    No need to be immune to fear, hold and confusion if the enemies are incapable of casting it due to insect plague.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited June 2013
    Jarrakul said:

    In fairness, they also get Armor of Faith, which is amazing, but doesn't really come into its own until 10th level or so. It's only 1st level, but becomes good around the time you get 5th level spells. Odd, but that's how these things go sometimes.

    Find Traps and Slow Poison can also be nice, although both have perfectly functional, if less convenient, substitutes. Druids can also heal, which is really good if you don't like resting after every encounter.

    Strength of one can also be a useful spell, if only because it makes the strength of everyone in the party 18/76 (which probably means most characters in a party are getting a boost). In BG1 anyways. It loses its usefullness in BG2 pretty quickly. Both clerics and druids get it, though I think by the fact that druids have less spells to use cast at third level they are the better bet to memorise it.

    Insect summons (which is what I assume you all are referring to when you say insect swarm and not "insect plague" which is a 5th level spell) is an alright spell, but only alright. Its biggest problem is that like call lightning it has a very long casting time (9). Instead you can pretty well just get a mage to use blind/glitterdust on enemy mages and it'll take less time. Alternatively you can try miscast magic, though it will be easier for casters to save against because its a save vs. spells at -2, compared to summon insects save vs. breath at -4.
    BobC said:

    Druids are basically the only healer. Their other spells just aren't really good enough to not take healing abilities, because other classes get better debuffs or the like.

    Again.....Druids definitely have a place in group, but they're like a Bard.....they don't really excell at anything, but are able to support other classes and casters very well, since they can take the spells that the other classes REALLY don't want to have to take due to having better options vs most situations.

    1. Honestly, who goes single class druid anyway? If you're not picking a kit, it's MUCH better to go fighter/druid anyway since Druids can gain levels fast, especially at the beginning of BG2.

    2. Druids gets access to two interesting spells that no other class can obtain. Insect Plague destroys mages and Iron Skins makes you an awesome tank. Both of these skills are extremely useful when during the later parts of BG2

    3. Not to mention conjure Fire Elemental and Summon Woodland Beings You get access to these summons before Clerics and Wizards can get that powerhouse summons.


    Nevertheless, I agree with you on one thing, Clerics are better overall (and mages are on a whole nother level). Especially since they get better higher level spells. Perhaps druids would be more useful if Clerics didn't exist.
    Few things to point out here.

    Like Jarrakul pointed out ZanathKariashi was referring to druids before they get level 4 spells. So more of a BG1 issue. They don't even get fire elementals until BG2 for instance.

    Also Druids only gain levels fast up until level 12 when they levelling wise they slow down (which for druids isn't that far into BG2). Also "Iron Skins" is just stoneskin with a longer casting time, so its not as if they are the only class that can get it. The only benefit iron skins ever had over stoneskin was in BG2 vanilla where breach couldn't take it down.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Yeah, druid's do get some nice higher level spells....still not super OP, but they're at least useful and have a niche. Their fire elementals are actually stronger then their HLA elemental summon ability, since the lower level one hits as +5, but the HLA version hits as +2 for regular, +3 for princes.

    The Nymph is stronger in melee then you give credit...yes her physical attacks are garbage damage-wise but every hit is a save or DIE (At +3 vs breath).


    I'm not at all a fan of Ironskins, since as a above, it's a grossly inferior version of stoneskin, since it takes too long to cast to reapply during combat, and the time you take to do it, is sacrificing upwards of 8-10 possible attacks that could've ended the battle anyway. I usually don't find it at all worth it, and memorize other stuff.
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
    edited June 2013
    It is too powerful and unbalanced:

    My house rule is that I don't let any druid memorize no more than one. And I do not manually control the spells cast by the nymph. Seems fair.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I am rather a fan of Ironskins, although it's certainly no better than Stoneskin. I just happen to love Stoneskin. As for its casting time, I know the description says "1 round," but in my unmodded BG2 it's casting time 1 in practice. Has that been changed in EE?
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited June 2013
    Jarrakul said:

    I am rather a fan of Ironskins, although it's certainly no better than Stoneskin. I just happen to love Stoneskin. As for its casting time, I know the description says "1 round," but in my unmodded BG2 it's casting time 1 in practice. Has that been changed in EE?

    Yes its been changed to 1 round.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Bummer. Still useful to memorize one or two of, just 'cause it lasts so long, but definitely a lot worse now. My druid will be greatly saddened in a few levels.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Jarrakul said:

    Bummer. Still useful to memorize one or two of, just 'cause it lasts so long, but definitely a lot worse now. My druid will be greatly saddened in a few levels.

    Their reasoning was that the spell description both in game and in manual always said 1 round, so they adjusted it accordingly. Personally I would just use Near Infinity to adjust it back.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited June 2013

    Yeah, druid's do get some nice higher level spells....still not super OP, but they're at least useful and have a niche. Their fire elementals are actually stronger then their HLA elemental summon ability, since the lower level one hits as +5, but the HLA version hits as +2 for regular, +3 for princes.

    The Nymph is stronger in melee then you give credit...yes her physical attacks are garbage damage-wise but every hit is a save or DIE (At +3 vs breath).

    Whoa I did not know that! Since when do PnP nymphs have death on hit ability? They have blinding beauty aura (and it could kill with beauty if they are nude or disrobe infront of you) (atweaks mod used to give them blinding aura and that made them very annoying to deal with) But death on hit is nereid ability. Nereids have Drowning kiss:save vs breath (you hold your breath) or die in ecstacy. I wish the devs would give that death attack to Shoal the Nereid so she wouldn't be easy 5k xp with feet. Nymphs try to touch targets with cause wounds spells anyway. (Which is a very out of character choice for a beautiful Nymph, to touch victims and cause evil, horrible wounds)

    http://lomion.de/cmm/nymph.php

    Do in game nymphs have the %50 mr? Also, they should be able to cast as lvl 7 druids, with a single 4th lvl spell and no more. With 9 ac, lousy THAC0 and no damaging melee attack to speak of, Nymphs are not meant for direct battle, anyway. They can cast some spells (certainly not that many as in Bg version) can resist some spells, and can blind some enemies, but that's all. An ogre or golem would just tear a Nymph in half. And most bandits and elite hobgobs can turn one into punchison in no time.

  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I suppose I could do that. It stinks of trying to make the game easier, though, which would hurt my pride a bit.

    Personally, I like when the game works the way it says it works. I'm just not sure how you decide which is right between the in-game effect and the description (since you can change either one). Certainly there weren't a lot of folks saying druids were overpowered, so this does seem like a somewhat odd choice.
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    AHHHHHHHHHHHHhH!
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    rdarken said:

    AHHHHHHHHHHHHhH!

    I agree with the general premise of your argument though I feel like there is an insufficient number of H's present in it :D
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    I think that was supposed to be the sound effect made when you summon or click on a woodland being
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    ajwz said:

    I think that was supposed to be the sound effect made when you summon or click on a woodland being

    Yup :)
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    ajwz said:

    I think that was supposed to be the sound effect made when you summon or click on a woodland being

    ah that makes sense.

    Just seeing AHHHHHHHHHHHHhH! could mean anything..

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