@the_spyder: I want to start by mentioning that I think your interpretation is perfectly valid. I just don't think all paladins are necessarily going to react that way. Some of them will be stupid and gullible, and some of them will be smart and will still see it differently.
While you could make an arguing that going into a fight you know will get you killed isn't necessarily stupid, it's definitely suicidal. If I may invoke the opposite end of the alignment spectrum, it's why suicide bombers are called suicide bombers. As for the moronic end of things, I don't mean to say that the paladin is actually being stupid. I'm just saying that he's doing things that are clearly self-detrimental because it'll help others. If you want to get technical, I'm basing the definition of stupidity on the common perception of self-interest. The paladin behaves in ways that appear stupid, because he works according to a very different set of priorities than most people.
I totally accept turning Dorn over as a better alternative to killing him. I don't accept that Dorn is going to come quietly, and I find it very difficult to imagine subduing someone with Dorn's Strength and Dexterity scores without killing him. Besides, how would you transfer that RP decision over to gameplay except by killing him and just saying "oh, I didn't really kill him, I just beat him into submission and then tied him up." It's not like capturing him would prevent you from taking his equipment anyway (in fact, if you capture him and then leave him with his equipment, you're doing a very bad job). And as for organizations other than the Fist, what contacts does the PC have in the early game? You meet Dorn well before you actually know you have Harper contacts. For that matter, you don't even have Flaming Fist contacts, and it's entirely likely that your sum total experience with the Fist is 1) the guy who accosts you on the road and will try to kill you if you don't talk him down, and 2) the guy who's trying to kill Viconia just because she's a drow. Slightly down the road, you can add the woman who pays random strangers for scalps. Oh, and they're all explicitly mercenaries. Were I a paladin, I would be very hesitant to submit someone to Flaming Fist "justice". As for churches, plenty are trustworthy, but none of the BG1 churches seem prepared to detain prisoners. Which isn't really surprising, since they're churches.
As for letting Dorn into the party instead, I should point out that the first thing you see him actually do is help you. Surely that's worth giving him a chance. Even if you disagree, all you really know about him at that point is that he's clearly not a great person. Is that reason to dislike him? Certainly. Reason to keep an eye on him? Definitely. Reason to kill him on the spot? That seems slightly extreme for someone you've known for all of three minutes and who hasn't done anything except kill the people who were attacking you. Similarly, you have no reason to suspect your party is in any danger from Dorn. Don't get me wrong, I can see the paladin talking it over with the rest of the group and making sure they're all okay with it, but I don't see that they'd necessarily be opposed to it either. From a pragmatic standpoint, he's a great fighter with plenty of good reason to want to join forces. Not betraying you is clearly in his best interests, and a sword as strong as his between you and an ogre berserker is going to lengthen your life expectancy considerably, whatever his reasons (obviously the paladin isn't gonna think like this, but the others probably will).
So, after all this, why would the paladin turn around and kill Dorn? Because he's dangerous, and because he's refusing to be supervised. There is a big, big difference between a criminal you're watching constantly and one you're not. Hence the parole officer analogy. Understand, the paladin isn't gonna just walk up and shone a sword in Dorn's face. But there is simply no way the paladin can let someone like Dorn run around freely doing whatever he wants. And since there's also no way that Dorn is going to come back into the party just because the paladin wants to keep an eye on him, a fight is naturally going to break out. If Dorn dies in the process, fine. If not, see two paragraphs ago.
@Jarrakul - I too believe that your viewpoint is perfectly valid and respect your point of view.
I also agree that some paladins are stupid. I take this as a function of there INT value though, not because of their class or alignment. In that, i can absolutely see some paladins acting as idiots and just trusting blindly. I personally have difficulty playing that type of character but that is more my own hang up than anything else. And I think that their life expectancy is on the short side if they do.
You are right in that turning him over to some organization is not an in game option. However, I still imagine in my mind by doing thusly: I would give him a trial run briefly but as soon as he starts talking smack about killing innocents and burning villages, he gets locked up. I give it basically to the next town, which makes for a nice continuity to my RP scenario as I can drop him from the party, tell him to 'Stay here and wait for me' and pretend that I handed him over to these other organizations that we have discussed. Easy-peasy.
See, I don't see how handing him over to the authorities is going to end without a fight. While the game mechanics allow you to just walk him anywhere you want, I simply don't see him just walking into a prison cell. Maybe you're just more creative than I am and can figure out how to subdue him peacefully.
And I agree that the paladin's actual intelligence is the only thing that determines how smart they actually are. But as I said, even a very smart paladin will act in ways that are generally accepted as being stupid because he has such different priorities from most people. This is actually a core concept in game theory. Rational, intelligent behavior can only be accurately assessed if you know what the payoffs look like for that individual. So again, I don't mean that the paladin is actually stupid, just that paladins, by their very nature, will do things that seem really dumb to those of us who aren't paladins.
The simple answer to how to hand him over to authorities without a fight is "Hold person" (also sleep or hold monster or any of the other 'control' type spells available to the modern wizard). Have a good wizard in your party and dealing with Dorn (when the party is all ready and on your side) isn't really a problem. No need to kill him.
Also, I see a difference between a suicide bomber and sacrificing yourself. The Suicide bomber intends to kill themselves in order to cause whatever damage they are doing. Gandalf didn't intend to die (well, let's say fall in instead because...) when he stood on the bridge at Kazadoom against the Balrog. He didn't commit suicide. He sacrificed himself so that others could escape. He didn't intend to die. He just did (well, from a certain perspective) anyway. Therein lies the difference in my mind. And a significant difference it is.
and you are right, some people might think of the sacrifices that Paladins make as being stupid on the face of it. But that just means that they are cowardly enough not to be willing and able to make the same sacrifice. (all in fun and no offense intended).
I don't much like the idea of automatically assuming Dorn's gonna fail his save. He's got pretty decent saves, all things considered. I'm not saying that subduing him is outright impossible, but his death would hardly be unlikely.
I'm sure many, if not most, suicide bombers would be a lot happier if they didn't have to die in the process. Military suicide missions are named by the same logic. But if you go in there fully understanding that you're going to die, and you're willingly doing it anyway, I don't see how it matters whether it's you or the other guy that does the deed (well, from standpoint of the person doing the dying; it could very well matter in the moral assessment of the other guy). You knowingly went through with an action that would result in your death. I'll agree that if the paladin in question thought he'd be able to survive and simply didn't, that's not suicide. But if he knew he was going to die? That's pretty suicidal. Still noble, if done for the right reasons, but nonetheless suicidal.
I think if you examine general perceptions of intelligent and unintelligent actions, you'll find that fear, or at least some basic risk assessment, plays huge part in determining what is considered smart. Indeed, the ability to do this well is pretty much the definition of common sense. The paladin must, by his moral code, willfully disregard the standard assessments. It's not hard to see why they'd be considered stupid. It doesn't mean they're actually stupid, mind you. Just that they, by virtue or by courage, have very different priorities from other people.
With respect, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.
I don't assume that Dorn will fail his saving throw. I assume that a well prepared party will be able to subdue him one way or the other. And that any organization is going to be prepared to assist in his 'Capture', thus vastly increasing the odds of a non-lethal take down. But ultimately if it comes to his death, it is because he is fighting against what is best for him. So be it. But it isn't like we tracked him down and killed him in his sleep or anything.
As far as the suicide bombers, you miss the point entirely. The intent of suicide is to kill yourself. The intent to sacrifice for others is to help others. Makes no difference if you would prefer to live. It has everything to do with your intent to die. A paladin standing up to a dragon may know he is going to die, but he doesn't attempt to kill himself. He attempts to stop the dragon. Maybe he lives, maybe he dies. I see that as a difference. Jumping on a land mine to protect your troop isn't suicide. You don't try and kill yourself. You try to prevent others from dying.
As for the intelligence thing, I think that defines a paladin. An intelligent person would never stand up to a dragon that they had no hope of defeating, just to buy some time for the escaping villagers. I do not see this as stupid that a paladin would do that. And you are right in that risk assessment plays into it. The difference between a smart paladin and any other smart person is that the paladin would stand up and do what is right and noble regardless of the risk. This isn't dumb, it is what separates paladins from the rest of us.
Edited to remove one comment that I thought better of.
@the_spyder: I'm fine leaving this be if you want to, but there are a few things I'd like to clarify. Because I almost entirely agree with you at this point and I don't want to leave you with the wrong impression.
You make a fair point about capturing him. I still have to wonder how this interacts with the situation the OP posted, where Dorn ran off with some of the party's gear. Naturally the party is warranted in subduing him, I think we both agree on that (it's letting him tag along in the first place that we're iffy on). But how would you go about that in-game? In this case, simply "parking" him isn't sufficient, as the paladin has no option to take his stuff first (and it's hard to justify letting him keep his stuff or the party's). It seems to me that in this case killing him in-game and using rp magic to say you just subdued him may be the best option. I suppose you could also console the items in, or kill him and then spawn him again, but that seems to require just as much suspension of disbelief.
I fear I wasn't entirely clear about the suicide thing. Reading my last post, I seem to have wondered slightly off-topic a couple sentences in. The argument I intended to make isn't that I don't see the difference between wanting to die and wanting to accomplish something that happens to require your death. It's that suicide bombers and people who go on suicide missions are not, by and large, trying to kill themselves. They're trying to do something (horrific or otherwise) that happens to require their deaths. So by the logic of those terms, I claim that certain paladinly acts are, in fact, suicidal. (Incidentally, if you disagree about suicide bombers' motivations, I'd rather not get into it. In that case, focus on suicide missions instead.)
I entirely agree with your last paragraph. It's what I was trying to get at with all my talking about common definitions of stupidity as opposed to actual stupidity. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
@Jarrakul - Relating to the OP, my problem was (a) that the Paladin in question would travel with Dorn at all AND (b) given the trust the Paladin must have had in order to travel and adventure with him and given Dorn's stated reason for leaving ( quite simply the party rep got too high), I have a problem with them tracking him down and killing him. There is a disconnect as far as I see things. I think that any paladin that I ran would EITHER adventure with Dorn OR kill him/incarcerate him. Not both.
As for getting the stuff back, the player could always do something small to get rep down below 18 and then have Dorn rejoin (not sure if that works mechanically but it does with Viconia so....). Then strip him and dump him. It is a bit meta-gaming-ish, but it is a viable option. And you could even make up a RP logic for doing it. They meet up again and after proving that they aren't such goodie-goodies after all. Dorn agrees to sit down and have a drink with them. After discussion, he still decides not to join but agrees to give back the stuff (either by choice or duress).
This is all 100% in my own view point and should in no way influence how others play or enjoy the game. Merely that I see it as a bit "Situational" ethically speaking for any paladin that I would play.
I prefer to drop the suicide bomber discussion as it isn't really relevant as I see it.
@the_spyder: Other than the trick with recruiting Viconia, I have a lot more trouble with the idea of the paladin doing something to lower his reputation than I would with him travelling with Dorn in the first place. I'd have no problem with using the Viconia trick, though.
I also don't see the general inconsistency in travelling with Dorn and then killing/incarcerating him that you see, but I suspect you have a pretty good grasp of my argument by this point, so I won't reiterate it unless you ask me to.
Dorn was kept in check the entire time he travelled with us and we committed no crimes except killing the flaming fist guard that wanted to rough up the drow. I was going to try to do something to lower my reputation far enough to allow Dorn to join again, but that would have meant most likely creating crimes against the innocent. I already had the Drow join the group previously and took the rep hit. So there really was nothing I could think of doing. Besides asking for my stuff back was a reasonable request. He knew he was just holding onto it and it was rightfully the party members.
FYI, if Viconia is in your party and your reputation is above 18, you can kick her out and re-recruit her to drop your reputation to 18. This is because taking her lowers your rep by 2 and kicking her out increases it by 2, but the max is 20 so if your rep is 19-20 before kicking her out you won't get the full increase, but you will get the full decrease for re-recruiting her.
All water under the bridge now...Dorn lays face down in the corner of the Friendly Arm Inn to this day like a Bear Skin rug.
Coran has been an excellent addition to the party since Dorn left. The guy wreaks havoc with Long Bow +2, The Archer Bracers, and his 20 Dexterity. Throw in his theiving abilities and I think He's the best NPC in the game.
Dorn was kept in check the entire time he travelled with us and we committed no crimes except killing the flaming fist guard that wanted to rough up the drow. I was going to try to do something to lower my reputation far enough to allow Dorn to join again, but that would have meant most likely creating crimes against the innocent. I already had the Drow join the group previously and took the rep hit. So there really was nothing I could think of doing. Besides asking for my stuff back was a reasonable request. He knew he was just holding onto it and it was rightfully the party members.
Keeping someone in check can be a tricky thing to do in the middle of a particularly tough combat. Even in relatively minor combats deciding if someone actually was giving their full effort in defense of party members can be a very slippery slope. Remember, if you are guarding someone's back, you don't actually need to put the sword in yourself. Merely not stop someone else from doing it.
Taking a minor rep hit to gain his confidence is a reasonable tactic (IMHO), much like a cop going under cover to gain intel on the bad guys. Not every Paladin is that type of Paladin, admittedly, but it could be done. And Hiring/firing/hiring again Viconia will chip away at your rep. it's a bit cheesy, but it will do the trick. I think there are even a few quests where simply being a jerk to the quest giver will chip away at your rep (don't quote me on this though because I am not 100% sure on that one).
And asking for your stuff back is fine. Killing him outright "Because he is EVIL" wouldn't be my choice. But then I am not playing your game. You are. Play as you have fun and enjoy.
Comments
While you could make an arguing that going into a fight you know will get you killed isn't necessarily stupid, it's definitely suicidal. If I may invoke the opposite end of the alignment spectrum, it's why suicide bombers are called suicide bombers. As for the moronic end of things, I don't mean to say that the paladin is actually being stupid. I'm just saying that he's doing things that are clearly self-detrimental because it'll help others. If you want to get technical, I'm basing the definition of stupidity on the common perception of self-interest. The paladin behaves in ways that appear stupid, because he works according to a very different set of priorities than most people.
I totally accept turning Dorn over as a better alternative to killing him. I don't accept that Dorn is going to come quietly, and I find it very difficult to imagine subduing someone with Dorn's Strength and Dexterity scores without killing him. Besides, how would you transfer that RP decision over to gameplay except by killing him and just saying "oh, I didn't really kill him, I just beat him into submission and then tied him up." It's not like capturing him would prevent you from taking his equipment anyway (in fact, if you capture him and then leave him with his equipment, you're doing a very bad job). And as for organizations other than the Fist, what contacts does the PC have in the early game? You meet Dorn well before you actually know you have Harper contacts. For that matter, you don't even have Flaming Fist contacts, and it's entirely likely that your sum total experience with the Fist is 1) the guy who accosts you on the road and will try to kill you if you don't talk him down, and 2) the guy who's trying to kill Viconia just because she's a drow. Slightly down the road, you can add the woman who pays random strangers for scalps. Oh, and they're all explicitly mercenaries. Were I a paladin, I would be very hesitant to submit someone to Flaming Fist "justice". As for churches, plenty are trustworthy, but none of the BG1 churches seem prepared to detain prisoners. Which isn't really surprising, since they're churches.
As for letting Dorn into the party instead, I should point out that the first thing you see him actually do is help you. Surely that's worth giving him a chance. Even if you disagree, all you really know about him at that point is that he's clearly not a great person. Is that reason to dislike him? Certainly. Reason to keep an eye on him? Definitely. Reason to kill him on the spot? That seems slightly extreme for someone you've known for all of three minutes and who hasn't done anything except kill the people who were attacking you. Similarly, you have no reason to suspect your party is in any danger from Dorn. Don't get me wrong, I can see the paladin talking it over with the rest of the group and making sure they're all okay with it, but I don't see that they'd necessarily be opposed to it either. From a pragmatic standpoint, he's a great fighter with plenty of good reason to want to join forces. Not betraying you is clearly in his best interests, and a sword as strong as his between you and an ogre berserker is going to lengthen your life expectancy considerably, whatever his reasons (obviously the paladin isn't gonna think like this, but the others probably will).
So, after all this, why would the paladin turn around and kill Dorn? Because he's dangerous, and because he's refusing to be supervised. There is a big, big difference between a criminal you're watching constantly and one you're not. Hence the parole officer analogy. Understand, the paladin isn't gonna just walk up and shone a sword in Dorn's face. But there is simply no way the paladin can let someone like Dorn run around freely doing whatever he wants. And since there's also no way that Dorn is going to come back into the party just because the paladin wants to keep an eye on him, a fight is naturally going to break out. If Dorn dies in the process, fine. If not, see two paragraphs ago.
I also agree that some paladins are stupid. I take this as a function of there INT value though, not because of their class or alignment. In that, i can absolutely see some paladins acting as idiots and just trusting blindly. I personally have difficulty playing that type of character but that is more my own hang up than anything else. And I think that their life expectancy is on the short side if they do.
You are right in that turning him over to some organization is not an in game option. However, I still imagine in my mind by doing thusly: I would give him a trial run briefly but as soon as he starts talking smack about killing innocents and burning villages, he gets locked up. I give it basically to the next town, which makes for a nice continuity to my RP scenario as I can drop him from the party, tell him to 'Stay here and wait for me' and pretend that I handed him over to these other organizations that we have discussed. Easy-peasy.
But I can see your view point as well.
And I agree that the paladin's actual intelligence is the only thing that determines how smart they actually are. But as I said, even a very smart paladin will act in ways that are generally accepted as being stupid because he has such different priorities from most people. This is actually a core concept in game theory. Rational, intelligent behavior can only be accurately assessed if you know what the payoffs look like for that individual. So again, I don't mean that the paladin is actually stupid, just that paladins, by their very nature, will do things that seem really dumb to those of us who aren't paladins.
Also, I see a difference between a suicide bomber and sacrificing yourself. The Suicide bomber intends to kill themselves in order to cause whatever damage they are doing. Gandalf didn't intend to die (well, let's say fall in instead because...) when he stood on the bridge at Kazadoom against the Balrog. He didn't commit suicide. He sacrificed himself so that others could escape. He didn't intend to die. He just did (well, from a certain perspective) anyway. Therein lies the difference in my mind. And a significant difference it is.
and you are right, some people might think of the sacrifices that Paladins make as being stupid on the face of it. But that just means that they are cowardly enough not to be willing and able to make the same sacrifice. (all in fun and no offense intended).
I'm sure many, if not most, suicide bombers would be a lot happier if they didn't have to die in the process. Military suicide missions are named by the same logic. But if you go in there fully understanding that you're going to die, and you're willingly doing it anyway, I don't see how it matters whether it's you or the other guy that does the deed (well, from standpoint of the person doing the dying; it could very well matter in the moral assessment of the other guy). You knowingly went through with an action that would result in your death. I'll agree that if the paladin in question thought he'd be able to survive and simply didn't, that's not suicide. But if he knew he was going to die? That's pretty suicidal. Still noble, if done for the right reasons, but nonetheless suicidal.
I think if you examine general perceptions of intelligent and unintelligent actions, you'll find that fear, or at least some basic risk assessment, plays huge part in determining what is considered smart. Indeed, the ability to do this well is pretty much the definition of common sense. The paladin must, by his moral code, willfully disregard the standard assessments. It's not hard to see why they'd be considered stupid. It doesn't mean they're actually stupid, mind you. Just that they, by virtue or by courage, have very different priorities from other people.
I don't assume that Dorn will fail his saving throw. I assume that a well prepared party will be able to subdue him one way or the other. And that any organization is going to be prepared to assist in his 'Capture', thus vastly increasing the odds of a non-lethal take down. But ultimately if it comes to his death, it is because he is fighting against what is best for him. So be it. But it isn't like we tracked him down and killed him in his sleep or anything.
As far as the suicide bombers, you miss the point entirely. The intent of suicide is to kill yourself. The intent to sacrifice for others is to help others. Makes no difference if you would prefer to live. It has everything to do with your intent to die. A paladin standing up to a dragon may know he is going to die, but he doesn't attempt to kill himself. He attempts to stop the dragon. Maybe he lives, maybe he dies. I see that as a difference. Jumping on a land mine to protect your troop isn't suicide. You don't try and kill yourself. You try to prevent others from dying.
As for the intelligence thing, I think that defines a paladin. An intelligent person would never stand up to a dragon that they had no hope of defeating, just to buy some time for the escaping villagers. I do not see this as stupid that a paladin would do that. And you are right in that risk assessment plays into it. The difference between a smart paladin and any other smart person is that the paladin would stand up and do what is right and noble regardless of the risk. This isn't dumb, it is what separates paladins from the rest of us.
Edited to remove one comment that I thought better of.
You make a fair point about capturing him. I still have to wonder how this interacts with the situation the OP posted, where Dorn ran off with some of the party's gear. Naturally the party is warranted in subduing him, I think we both agree on that (it's letting him tag along in the first place that we're iffy on). But how would you go about that in-game? In this case, simply "parking" him isn't sufficient, as the paladin has no option to take his stuff first (and it's hard to justify letting him keep his stuff or the party's). It seems to me that in this case killing him in-game and using rp magic to say you just subdued him may be the best option. I suppose you could also console the items in, or kill him and then spawn him again, but that seems to require just as much suspension of disbelief.
I fear I wasn't entirely clear about the suicide thing. Reading my last post, I seem to have wondered slightly off-topic a couple sentences in. The argument I intended to make isn't that I don't see the difference between wanting to die and wanting to accomplish something that happens to require your death. It's that suicide bombers and people who go on suicide missions are not, by and large, trying to kill themselves. They're trying to do something (horrific or otherwise) that happens to require their deaths. So by the logic of those terms, I claim that certain paladinly acts are, in fact, suicidal. (Incidentally, if you disagree about suicide bombers' motivations, I'd rather not get into it. In that case, focus on suicide missions instead.)
I entirely agree with your last paragraph. It's what I was trying to get at with all my talking about common definitions of stupidity as opposed to actual stupidity. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
As for getting the stuff back, the player could always do something small to get rep down below 18 and then have Dorn rejoin (not sure if that works mechanically but it does with Viconia so....). Then strip him and dump him. It is a bit meta-gaming-ish, but it is a viable option. And you could even make up a RP logic for doing it. They meet up again and after proving that they aren't such goodie-goodies after all. Dorn agrees to sit down and have a drink with them. After discussion, he still decides not to join but agrees to give back the stuff (either by choice or duress).
This is all 100% in my own view point and should in no way influence how others play or enjoy the game. Merely that I see it as a bit "Situational" ethically speaking for any paladin that I would play.
I prefer to drop the suicide bomber discussion as it isn't really relevant as I see it.
I also don't see the general inconsistency in travelling with Dorn and then killing/incarcerating him that you see, but I suspect you have a pretty good grasp of my argument by this point, so I won't reiterate it unless you ask me to.
Coran has been an excellent addition to the party since Dorn left. The guy wreaks havoc with Long Bow +2, The Archer Bracers, and his 20 Dexterity. Throw in his theiving abilities and I think He's the best NPC in the game.
Taking a minor rep hit to gain his confidence is a reasonable tactic (IMHO), much like a cop going under cover to gain intel on the bad guys. Not every Paladin is that type of Paladin, admittedly, but it could be done. And Hiring/firing/hiring again Viconia will chip away at your rep. it's a bit cheesy, but it will do the trick. I think there are even a few quests where simply being a jerk to the quest giver will chip away at your rep (don't quote me on this though because I am not 100% sure on that one).
And asking for your stuff back is fine. Killing him outright "Because he is EVIL" wouldn't be my choice. But then I am not playing your game. You are. Play as you have fun and enjoy.