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Paladin question

Hey guys, I decided to run a vanilla class paladin through BG:EE with the thought of giving him the Blackguard kit or the Cavalier kit in BG2:EE depending on how I'm feeling about the direction I want to take him in at that point.

My question is since Blackguards are required to be of evil alignment will the option to select that kit be available to me if my Paladin was previously lawful good in BG:EE?

Also, I'm not too great on D&D lore. Can you guys recommend a god for my Paladin to follow? I'm trying to stay away from the stereotypical ones like Tyr or Helm. I was thinking since there is a temple of Oghma in Candlekeep I would select Oghma as my god but from what I've read it looks like his worshippers are mainly bards and wizards.
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  • Irish437Irish437 Member Posts: 16
    I am playing a Cavalier right now and it appears pretty easy to stay on the straight and narrow. In fact, your reputation will quickly become so high that you can't use Dorn in your party. You better have a good archer in the group though. Right now I am running with My Cavalier, Coran (Fighter/Thief), Branwen(Cleric), The Dwarf Cleric, Neera, and Imoen who is now a 6th level thief and 4th level mage. Not the best party makeup, but good enough.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    coryivm said:

    Hey guys, I decided to run a vanilla class paladin through BG:EE with the thought of giving him the Blackguard kit or the Cavalier kit in BG2:EE depending on how I'm feeling about the direction I want to take him in at that point.

    My question is since Blackguards are required to be of evil alignment will the option to select that kit be available to me if my Paladin was previously lawful good in BG:EE?

    Also, I'm not too great on D&D lore. Can you guys recommend a god for my Paladin to follow? I'm trying to stay away from the stereotypical ones like Tyr or Helm. I was thinking since there is a temple of Oghma in Candlekeep I would select Oghma as my god but from what I've read it looks like his worshippers are mainly bards and wizards.

    I'm not sure they have really revealed much about transferring your character to BGEE, but above all else I wouldn't assume that you can change your alignment in BG2EE. So I wouldn't go with a lawful good paladin now if you think you want to be a blackguard.

    You could play as a Lawful good Paladin of Kelemvor.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    If you play BGEE you can just run a Blackguard from the start. Otherwise, I would be very surprised if BGIIEE let's you switch a Paladin into a Blackguard!

    Deities are purely a role playing decision, it has no actual application in BG. But isn't Oghma actually neutral or lawful-neutral? Not a very good candidate for a paladin.
  • RhaellaRhaella Member, Developer Posts: 178
    Oghma is True Neutral, so he's out for paladins. If you're looking at gods of wisdom/magic/etc., for your deity, though, both Azuth (LN) and Mystra (NG) have paladins.

    Lathander is a nice, non-Triad choice. I'm partial towards both the Red Knight (goddess of strategy) and Sune Firehair as paladin deities myself.

    I guess if you really wanted to, you could set your alignment to evil and switch to a blackguard in BG2, if you're rolling a new character and RPing it as the same one. I don't think you can assign new kits to established imported characters, though.
  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552
    You can shadowkeep the kit on the character no matter its alignment
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    @Rhaella: I'm not entirely sure how long this's been true, but by 3E at least Oghma can accept priests and followers of any alignment (as can Gond, god of invention). So I think it would be possible, if highly unusual, to be a paladin of Oghma.

    My suggested list is as follows:
    Kelemvor, LN God of the Dead and generally pretty cool guy (tried to rewrite the laws of the universe to promote goodness and punish evil)
    The Red Knight, LN Goddess of Strategy (basically Tempus's ambassador to smart, disciplined people)
    Chauntea, NG Goddess of Agriculture (good option for a paladin who wants to champion the common folk, since Chauntea is the main guardian of Faerun's massive farmer class)
    Deneir, NG God of Writing (basically Oghma's good side)
    Mielikki, NG Goddess of Forests (more strongly associated with rangers, but there's nothing saying you can't have a woodland paladin)
    Mystra, NG Goddess of Magic (guardian of magic, and patron of folks like Elminster who tend to work behind the scenes to do good in the Realms)

    My recommendation would be either Deneir, to play up the whole Candlekeep thing, or Kelemvor, because Kelemvor is the only god in the entire Forgotten Realms who has willing to put his power on the line to do the right thing (look up the whole Wall of the Faithless debacle for information on why every other god is actually a terrible person).
  • RhaellaRhaella Member, Developer Posts: 178
    @Jarrakul - I'm not certain that a god being able to have Lawful Good priests necessarily means that they can have paladins. (I mean, can you imagine Kossuthan paladins?) I think it is explicitly stated that LG, LN, and NG deities only -- with the Sunite exception -- have pallies, so I'm not so sure. I guess if Oghma were to want some, though, nobody would put up a fuss.

    Oh! Another alternative to Oghma, alongside Deneir, would be Milil, Lord of Song. He has a pretty entertaining knightly order.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited June 2013
    There's no legitimate way in BG1 to permanently change alignment so you'd be stuck at Lawful Good (equipped items are ignored for stuff involving classes...so wearing Opposite alignment helm and importing to BG2 wouldn't consider you evil), and it's unlikely BG2:EE will allow repicking of any stuff, since the system is the same. BG1 (vanilla) only allows you to repick stuff due to differences in the system used between 1 and 2.
  • coryivmcoryivm Member Posts: 27
    So could I kit him to cavalier in bg2:ee or am I stuck as a vanilla paladin?

    Would I be missing much if created a new version of my character as a blackguard in bg2:ee?
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited June 2013
    coryivm said:

    So could I kit him to cavalier in bg2:ee or am I stuck as a vanilla paladin?

    Would I be missing much if created a new version of my character as a blackguard in bg2:ee?

    You may be stuck as a regular paladin. I'll ask the "ask us anything" thread.

    Well you start out at 89,000 experience in BG2 if you create a new character, when you can have 161,000 if you import. I'm assuming it will be like that in BG2EE. In addition if it works like BG2 the game will bring two items that your character had on you in BGEE into BG2EE, though none that are particularly crucial. If you don't do this you are given two default items you can find, both of which are useful so its not that big of a deal. There is a third item you can bring over is more of a gag item that is fun to carry. Its certainly nice to have, but only becomes useful in Throne of Bhaal.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    Just start him as a cavalier in BGEE. I see no reason not to.
  • SniiiimonSniiiimon Member Posts: 153
    edited June 2013
    Am I the only one who thinks paladins of Milil are a viable option? :(

    Edit: Oh, yeah, you can always use bEEKeeper to change your paladin to blackguard and vice versa. :)
  • coryivmcoryivm Member Posts: 27
    Thanks for the information guys and thanks for asking the developers @elminster

    I'm trying to role play a paladin that isn't sure about his faith. He felt called by a higher power so the priest of Oghma tried to help him find his calling as a paladin. At the same time he is conflicted with being a bhaalspawn which causes him to make not so great decisions like partnering with Dorn. So I wanted to play out whether he chooses the good path or goes down the road as a anti-hero/lawful villain as a blackguard and embrace being the offspring of the god of murder.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    Cryivm if I were DMing you I'd say try again. You can't get cleric, druid or paladin abilities by being unsure of your faith or role in life. Those abilities are for individuals who are prepared to be an instrument of their faith through a lifelong commitment. Obviously BG can't really force that issue in any way, and there's nothing wrong with a character concept built around those issues and conflicts. But not as a divine caster.
  • coryivmcoryivm Member Posts: 27
    All right :/ was hoping to make playing a paladin more interesting for me
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    Well as I said, BG doesn't really have a mechanism for forcing any such concept. You can ultimately do whatever works for you. Its just the whole concept of divine casters is to be instruments of their deity. Any other class can be more of a lost soul, wanderer or seeker; but the various divine casters are generally required to be more sure of themselves and what they believe.
  • MalicronMalicron Member Posts: 629
    coryivm said:

    All right :/ was hoping to make playing a paladin more interesting for me

    Consider looking up Carrot from the Diskworld universe; he always struck me as an interesting and potentially fun way to play a paladin. This quote more or less sums it up:

    If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you're going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat. They'll watch you squirm. They'll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar. So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word.”
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Yea I never got an answer so I'd say you can't import then choose a kit in BG2EE.
  • coryivmcoryivm Member Posts: 27
    That's disappointing. I'll need to rethink playing a paladin. I like the idea but being lawful good is hard to play without being ridiculous. I like that quote Malicron.

    What about role playing a blackguard? Does he have to be ridiculously evil? I wouldn't think so because I really don't see Dorn as necessarily "evil", just ruthless. Which is somewhat justified given his story.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    coryivm said:

    That's disappointing. I'll need to rethink playing a paladin. I like the idea but being lawful good is hard to play without being ridiculous. I like that quote Malicron.

    What about role playing a blackguard? Does he have to be ridiculously evil? I wouldn't think so because I really don't see Dorn as necessarily "evil", just ruthless. Which is somewhat justified given his story.

    Blackguards can't "fall" at any reputation level, so you can play them however you want to play them.
  • ambrennanambrennan Member Posts: 173
    You'll also use the eight stat tomes found in BG1.
    I wouldn't think so because I really don't see Dorn as necessarily "evil", just ruthless. Which is somewhat justified given his story.
    In the conversations about charname's bhaalspawn power and heritage he does come across as classically/D&D evil. The manual is actually quite clear on this:
    The Blackguard epitomizes evil. He is nothing short of a mortal fiend. The quintessential black knight, this villain carries a reputation of the foulest sort that is very well deserved. Consorting with demons and devils and serving dark deities, the Blackguard is hated and feared by all. Some people call these villains “antipaladins” due to their completely evil nature.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Keep in mind, Sarevok is ALSO, a twisted Evil MFer, and yet still Erudite and cunning.........a Blackguard is just like any other evil villain...your intent is what determines if an act is really evil or not, not what other people think you did it for. A smart blackguard would keep his evil on the down low, and weigh his choices by what benefited him most in the long run. It really just comes down to your god I guess. Blackguards of Cyric or Talos are borderline or completely insane with their penchant for backstabbing allies for largely no reason or just mindlessly destroying everything around them just because.

    Paladin don't have that......the 2nd edition paladin especially is so strict, even thinking too much about performing an action can lead to immediate and permanent loss of abilities. And since paladin are able to detect evil at will, they're also forbidden to even associate with evil characters or immediately fall. The only time it's permissible is when there is absolutely no other way, and they lose their abilities until they seek atonement with a priest of their or an allied faith, and must do so immediately when first able or it becomes permanent. They also are supposed to refuse all rewards, except for the bare necessities to cover basic living expenses or if it would further the cause of their diety (such as a better sword or other gear...but they're also required to tithe 1/5 of it's estimated worth in gold to a charity ASAP, in addition to their other tithes). The reward refusal only applies to them doing something solo though. If they're working with a party, they take rewards as normal, but after each gets their share and accounting for personal living expenses the paladin must donate the rest to a charity.


    BG bases falling on your rep which is just wrong. Any evil or chaotic choice that your main character has a part in should result in immediate falling.

    I do wish their was an option for when a paladin falls, you have a one time opportunity to convert into a blackguard, complete with an alignment shift. Jumping off the slippery slope when given the chance, while a less extreme falling would simply continue to live out their days as a normal fighter (sans adv specialization).
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    So that's why Montaron, Xzar, Viconia, Edwin and all others shall be killed on sight ;-)

    Especially Viconia, not because she's a dark elf, but because there's too much hype around her ;-)
  • RemenissionsRemenissions Member Posts: 102
    Since when can you change your vanilla class into a kitted class in bg2? o.O
  • TalarashaTalarasha Member Posts: 62
    @Remenissions, since beginning of times (ok, may be from date when BG2:SoA was published, not sure about that). Since SoA introduce the whole new system of "kits" alongside with character-import feature, there was an opportunity for BG1-players to try this new feature with their old characters.
  • coryivmcoryivm Member Posts: 27
    edited June 2013
    Yeah I'm not sure I could play such a fanatical class. Thanks for the clarification Zanath. I know I could disregard the lore and play how I want but I want to get immersed in the story and play by the rules on how the class should be played. I was hoping that there was a chance being a paladin wasn't so black and white that there would be a tiny bit of wiggle room but from what I'm seeing its pretty strict. Would you guys say that clerics and fighter/clerics (warpriests I guess) are the same or are they more lenient on rules?
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  • coryivmcoryivm Member Posts: 27
    Yeah I know ultimately it's my game but I want to fit in with the story. I'm thinking of my rolling a half-orc fighter/cleric and calling him a warpriest. I want a warrior of faith kind of background but without being zealot or strict by the rules kind of person. I want a little flexibility in making decisions.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Clerics just depend on what god you choose, and as long as you don't violate their ideals, you can pretty much do whatever you want. Some are extremely strict, other are more laid back.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    Clerics can also channel their powers from a principle, a character doesn't need to serve a deity to have clerical powers, the focus in any principle/mission/code of conduct among other principles can be the needed link for a cleric or any divine caster to drag his spells.

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