Move the Barbarian to the Fighter Kit menu and introduce a new class in its' place.
Mordeus
Member Posts: 460
Currently every class allows for kits except for the Barbarian, this is because it is actually a Fighter kit masquerading as a class. The developers can't allow Barbarian kits like they did with the Monk and Sorcerer because it shares the same class identifier as the Fighter.
So I suggest that the Barbarian is either moved to the Fighter kit menu to reflect its' true nature as a Fighter kit. This would leave that slot open for a class that actually allows for kits. If it would be too much work, then you could turn the Barbarian from a kit to its' own class with its' own class identifier.
Although it is a bit redundant to turn the Barbarian into a proper class since the Fighter kit menu isn't even half full. Not to mention that the most viable Barbarian kit is already listed as a Fighter kit, that being the Wizard Slayer.
Going through the 2ed class handbooks the only universal class not yet available is the Psionicist from the Complete Psionic's Handbook (1991). Kwiat_W has a rather brilliant mod for the Psionicist that proves it is possible to introduce a spell system that is based on points, so the core of Psionicist, the PSP system is possible. So instead of introducing new kits which is something that modders can easily do, adding a new class that is fundamentally different (in terms of its' interface and how it deals with skills) from what is already available would be a pretty big contribution to the game since that is hardcoded and off limits to modders.
So I suggest that the Barbarian is either moved to the Fighter kit menu to reflect its' true nature as a Fighter kit. This would leave that slot open for a class that actually allows for kits. If it would be too much work, then you could turn the Barbarian from a kit to its' own class with its' own class identifier.
Although it is a bit redundant to turn the Barbarian into a proper class since the Fighter kit menu isn't even half full. Not to mention that the most viable Barbarian kit is already listed as a Fighter kit, that being the Wizard Slayer.
Going through the 2ed class handbooks the only universal class not yet available is the Psionicist from the Complete Psionic's Handbook (1991). Kwiat_W has a rather brilliant mod for the Psionicist that proves it is possible to introduce a spell system that is based on points, so the core of Psionicist, the PSP system is possible. So instead of introducing new kits which is something that modders can easily do, adding a new class that is fundamentally different (in terms of its' interface and how it deals with skills) from what is already available would be a pretty big contribution to the game since that is hardcoded and off limits to modders.
Post edited by Mordeus on
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Comments
We've already have some new kits and a dwarf with max dexterity of 16.
The Barbarian Fighter and Barbarian Cleric are identical to their Fighter and Cleric counterparts except for three things. They get to use the next hit dice above their counterparts (1d12 for Fighter & 1d10 for Clerics), they get a movement rate of 15 and both of them are restricted to at most Studded Leather. They do not have the sort of differences that justify a Ranger, Paladin, Bard, Druid, etc... from being their own class in the context of BG.
Even though the Barbarian's Handbook is named a 'handbook' it is in the same league as the Ninja's Handbook, The Sha'ir's Handbook and the Necromancer's Handbook. The Ninja's Handbook describing a variation of the Thief class for the Kara-Tur setting, The Sha'ir's Handbook describing a variation of the Mage class for the Al Qadim setting and the Necromancer's Handbook describing a variation of a mage specialist for an evil campaign. Besides it's reinforced in the 2ed anthology supplements like the Priest's or Wizard's Spell Compendium that these Handbook Classes belong in their isolated contexts or worlds since the Barbarian Cleric (the Cleric counterpart to the Barbarian Fighter) spells are restricted to savage settings only.
Besides the Barbarian class in BG2 is actually just a Barbarian kit since it is actually based on the Ravager kit, not the true class Barbarian. The Ravager being the only Barbarian that has access to a rage ability, as the true class does not. Another Barbarian kit is the Wizard Slayer, of which is listed under the Fighter. So logically either the Barbarian belongs alongside the Wizard Slayer or the Barbarian should allow kits, of which the Wizard Slayer would be one of them.
But in terms of the Infinity Engine, the Barbarian is assigned as a Fighter kit and not a standalone class. Hence why the developers after opening up the kit menu for the Monk and Sorcerer, left the Barbarian alone. That's because you can't kit a kit. Real estate in the character creation screen is precious, so it doesn't make sense to have it wasted by a 'class' that cannot be expanded with kits. Bringing in an actual universal class not restricted to a specific setting like the Psionicist would allow for kits, instead of having that Barbarian 'kit' hogging that slot forever.
Besides having the Barbarian alongside the Berserker wouldn't be such a big deal, the only argument against it would be aesthetic or a dislike of streamlining the character creation screen. Nothing is going to change the similarities they already share with each other since the Berserker really is a more mainstreamed take on the Ravager. The redundancy of the Barbarian is another topic of discussion altogether. Besides p&p is full of Berserker style kits like the Battlerager, Vindicator or Orcslayer, so having two raging classes side by side makes sense.
@Mordeus said everything, Old devs took an barbarian kit, renamed it as Barbarian and launch it as an single class. No special reason for that. If the problem is the limit in dual class in vanilla, just block the subject as it's done with the swashbuckler in the thief kit.
Barbarian kit evolve as a fighter kit in thac0 and APR, the strengh limit that bypass 18 (18/xx) is allowed to fighers and barbarians only, the character avatar is pretty the same for both classes and the 3 table number differences between a barbarian and a fighter are even labeled as advantage/disvantage, D12 as life dice, limit to especialization in weapons (but can go all the way on the fighting style) and limitation to studded armor.
Even if barbarian was an entire different class, there's no harm in moving him as a fighter kit, it's just cosmetic anyway. Swashbucklers are too an specific class, not an thief class. They're more a fighter than a rogue in fact, yet BG adapted them as an thief class.
An class kind slot free can be a world of possibilities. Why someone would be against that, at the worse, just let it empity, so other people can mod entire new classes for that empity class slot.
Ps: I'm thinking in make an feature request for 2 new kinds of cleric kits, Favored Soul (alike an cleric sorcerer) and Spirit Shaman (alike an druid sorcerer).
Obs: Spirit Shamans are rare on the Realms, they're more common in the Rashemen (what could lead to an future unique Joinable NPC linked to Minsc and Dynaheir).
There's an class Wild Soul class, that made a stronger bound with the fey entities, this class is exactly the same as spirit shamans but with another reasons of existence (maybe will fit better on BG as Spirit shamans are rare on Faerun).
The only problem is that i didn't found any official reference on WotC official site to this class.
So, what you ppl think? Is this an fair request? Should i spend an thread in this forum for this? Sorry if anyone think i'm going off-topic, but this thread @Mordeus started in my view is a bit revolutionary, being able to lead to pratical solution about the creation of new classes.
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Just to state, anyone that post his agreement or liking to the OP, give an agree or like there, it will strengh the idea in the eyes of the devs.
And yes there are already some questionable classes in the game from that view. Barbarian and Beast Master would be quite hard in little candlekeep with almost no time outside the walls.
And i'm all for changing Barbarian to a fighter kit. It was one of the few things that modders could change, as it wasn't hardcoded like the Sorcerer or monk. So i think that they were going to have the barbarian as a fighter kit from the start.