Bard play and a random question

Rangeltoft

Hello to you all. Don't know if this is posted in the right section of the forum, so please feel free to move it if it's not.

Im considering doing a Bard run (with normal NPC party) but can't for the life of me decide on which kit to use.
Played a Blade in BG2 alot of years ago and really like it, but it didnt really feel like a Bard.

So my question is - Are Skald or Jester valid for a complete run in the BG series?
The Jester I find most intresting, but are they any good in BG2? or will thier song be useless?
Skald I like alot, buff, cast spell, return to buffing etc. But it feels like I need a complete meele party to actully have the full benefits.
The party I'm planing on taking is: Monty,Xzar,Tiax(when I can get to him, some other cleric before that), Dorn and a fifth npc (don't know which one yet, maybe Raasad, but unsure how usefull he will be)

now for the random question:
If I use EEkeeper to add a kit to lets say a Cleric/Thief, will that translate over when I export to BG2, or will it get messed up? I am considering a Cleric/Assassin on one of my runs.

/Cheers Rangeltoft

SionIV

1.) The skald is awesome. You don't have to have a melee party to get the most out of the skald. He also gives AC (-4) with his song and immunities (Fear, stun, confusion). Those buffs are great for any character in your party, so don't worry about it . Any party would be happy to have a skald with them.

2.) I would advice you to download Song and Silence if you're going to play a Jester. Their song isn't that great in the original game, and i feel that they should have gotten some extra bonuses to make up for that, which they didn't do. I enjoy playing the Jester with Song and Silence installed.

3.) You shouldn't have to worry to much about changing the kit and BG2. I can see no reason for it to cause any problem when you move the character over to BG2. The only time i have had any problems with kits have been if one of the games don't have the mod installed that gives me the kit.

Rangeltoft

SionIV thanks for the response.
What changes does the Song and Silence mod bring for the jester?

SionIV

Rangeltoft said:

SionIV thanks for the response.
What changes does the Song and Silence mod bring for the jester?

The jesters song improve as you level up, something that it lacks in the original game. Atleast to the extent that it does in Song and Silence. They also have to save vs several status effects, Mesmerized, confused, distracted. So there is a better chanse that they atleast will get effected by something.

Distracted enemies have a 20% chanse to fail spells and -2 Thac0 and AC.
Confused enemies berserk and can attack allies.
Mesmerized enemies will stand still and be incapacitated (This breaks on damage)

Fools luck : +1 to his saving throwns, +1 to his base armor class and 5% to his pickpocket skill.

Chaotic Mind : Immune to all effects, weapons and spells that causes confusion.

They aren't major buffs but they add more flavor to the class. And levling up actually makes you look forward to your song improving.

Rangeltoft

That does sound intresting. I might check that out, altho I would probebly end up playing a Diresinger if I install that mod :P
Do you know if mods interfers with the updates(or the other way around)?

SionIV

Rangeltoft said:

That does sound intresting. I might check that out, altho I would probebly end up playing a Diresinger if I install that mod :P
Do you know if mods interfers with the updates(or the other way around)?

I actually have no idea how/if it works with BGEE. I have only tried it with the original game. You would have to ask someone else here how it works with mods that introduce new kits in BGEE

Rangeltoft

Thanks for the quick responses I'll go with a Skald for this run and maybe try out Jester later on.

ZanathKariashi

Jester's DO improve based on levels in the Unmodded game.....though it's pretty slow.

1-14 is Save at +2 vs Confusion per round.

15-20 is Save or be slowed and save at +2 vs confusion per round.

21+ is Save or be slowed, Save at +2 vs confusion, and save at +2 or be disabled per round.

Truth be told, I feel they're grossly overpowered, despite missing several bonuses they're supposed to have, and their "song" not working as it should, mostly because they also get a bunch of other more powerful benefits they shouldn't have (especially wand usage).


(And the Skald is actually weaker then it should be, since he's supposed to be able to buff the party with his song WHILE fighting...not hanging back and singing the whole time. And he's supposed to be able to use up to plate mail for armor and all shields and helms a fighter could. His casting is a little stronger then it should be (supposed to be 1 level slower in spell progression and caster level then a normal bard), but not enough to make up for his having to stand doing nothing but singing. And they and normal bards are supposed to have another song that gives party members a chance to break out of charm/dom/confusion/command, as well as a bonus to saves vs it. And even normal bards aren't supposed to stand around singing. Their song is supposed to have a 1 round duration per level. After which they go and contribute either in melee of via ranged weapons)




The other bonuses, +1 ac, +1 permanent luck bonus, and +5 thief skills is just a bonus jesters are supposed to have, from PnP.

As well as the immunity to confusion, insanity, and feeblemind.

They're also supposed to force anyone attempting to charm or dominate them to save or be confused for 1d4 rounds, whether the charm/dom works or not.

And they're supposed to have another "song" that allows them to give allies a save per round to break out of confusion effects and a +4 bonus on said saves.


On the other hand....they're supposed to have very limited weapon selection (just daggers, darts, slings, staves, clubs), no armor greater then leather. No lore ability. And no ability to cast directly from wands or scrolls.

And their song is supposed to be a taunt that forces enemies to attack them, regardless of combat tactics or common sense, if they fail their save. But doesn't work on enemies too stupid (under 6 int) or too smart (16+) to fall for it.

Rangeltoft

Thanks for the response ZanathKariashi.
Dont really care about the pnp stuff, since Im only playing the BG-series.
Do you really feel that the Jester is "op" in Bg:ee and in Bg:2?

SionIV

Rangeltoft said:

Thanks for the response ZanathKariashi.
Dont really care about the pnp stuff, since Im only playing the BG-series.
Do you really feel that the Jester is "op" in Bg:ee and in Bg:2?

He can be OP in BGEE, but when it comes to BG2 all the hard enemies are immune to his song. And without the song he is just a plain bard.

Rangeltoft

Thats abit of what I was afraid of... Don't want to play the series with a character that will become more or less useless in the later parts. But I really do like the idea of the Jester, just wish that there was something more to him

SionIV

Rangeltoft said:

Thats abit of what I was afraid of... Don't want to play the series with a character that will become more or less useless in the later parts. But I really do like the idea of the Jester, just wish that there was something more to him

A bard will never be useless.

Level 1-6 mage spells (Awesome!)
Highest lore in the game (You can look at an item to identify it)
Pickpocket (Let your thief put his points in something else)

The problem is that the skald got

Level 1-6 mage spells (Awesome!)
Highest lore in the game (You can look at an item to identify it)
Pickpocket (Let your thief put his points in something else)
Awesome song that helps the whole party

And the blade got

Level 1-6 mage spells (Awesome!)
Highest lore in the game (You can look at an item to identify it)
Pickpocket (Let your thief put his points in something else)
Song tha helps the whole party.
Incredible damage with offensive spin and can actually fight in close combat really well.

The jester is a nice character. But the hardest enemies :

Lich
Dragon
Mindflayer
All type of undead (Vampires, skeletal warriors, mummies, shadows)
Bosses
Most advanced enemy mages you fight in the game.

All of those are immune to his song. And the hard adventures /mercenary parties you will fight got such high level and saves that it will be very hard to get them under your song.

Rangeltoft

Thats the bit I mean about uselesss. In the Hard Fights, the Jester will just be a weak fighter/mage..
But maybe they will do something about that with the release of Bg2:ee, altho I wont hold my breath.

Kaltzor

SionIV said:

Pickpocket (Let your thief put his points in something else)
Highest lore in the game (You can look at an item to identify it)

I would like to point out that Skald and Blade both suffer in terms of pickpocket and that Blade also suffers in terms of Lore score...

Though Blade Lore should still be just slightly above thieves and mages.

SionIV

Kaltzor said:

SionIV said:

Pickpocket (Let your thief put his points in something else)
Highest lore in the game (You can look at an item to identify it)

I would like to point out that Skald and Blade both suffer in terms of pickpocket and that Blade also suffers in terms of Lore score...

Though Blade Lore should still be just slightly above thieves and mages.

It's barely noticable as you get pickpocket each level and you will level up quickly as a Bard.

The blade still has almost double the lore that the rogue and mage.

Jester/Bard/Skald : 10 lore per level
Blade : 5 lore per level
Mage / rogue : 3 lore per level

ZanathKariashi

The Jester's song doesn't really fail that badly. It's only useful for large battles anyway, and enemies fought in large battles, (barring drow) generally have bad saves....also, by the time you hit 15, they're having to save twice per round each, and 3x per round at 21....if people are going to try and say a horrible spell like CO, with the highest save bonus (bonus = bad) in the game is worth a spell slot over anything else, then an at will confusion/slow/disable with a negligible bonus or none at all, that by-passes magic resistance, is a god-send....and if the disable works, it might as well be a death spell, cause all attacks are going to auto-hit until they recover. Slow has no bonus so it still works fairly often even without debuffs...and there's no real reason not to chuck a glitterdust or GM at the enemy if they're something hardy like Drow...pretty sure GM by-passes magic resistance and has no save.

Vs single strong targets (barring the 4 needing +4 or higher, which need different strategy), you're better off throwing on two speed weapons, casting IH and mashing their face in. (even with only the benefits of * in two weapon, you still tear 80% of enemies apart, and can always use tenser's if you REALLY need to hit something (Handy vs the 5 enemies with -10 AC).)

Rangeltoft

ZanathKariashi - Hrmm, when you put it like that the Jester sounds playable in the whole series.. Debuffing resistens/saves are standard in most fights anyways (in bg2). So you think a Jester should use TWF even if the only get one *?

ZanathKariashi

It rather surprisingly doesn't matter a whole lot in the long run......most mook enemies have crap AC anyway, and if you have 4+ attacks per round (easily do-able with Belm/Kuudane, and can be acquired immediately), it matters even less. And vs harder targets you can always throw up Tenser's which gives you thac0 equal to a fighter of your level.

Early on, you will want to use bows or darts, but once you have 19 or more strength, melee becomes fairly viable.

While it's less effective with non-speed weapons, the extra attacks gained from wielding speed seems to make thac0 irrelevant.

A warrior's high thac0 gain is icing on the cake...their ability to gain natural extra attacks where their real strength lies.

Rangeltoft

Well yes, once you get Tenser's thaco is less of a problem, but what about bg:ee? should a Jester(or any bard except blade for that matter) try out twf or stick to range/single weapon? From what I remember there is no speed weapon in Bg:ee. Was considering maybe using the Crusher on my bard (be she Skald or Jester) just because she would be able to hit from behind the more meaty tankers and do a high amount of dmg.

ZanathKariashi

Not even blades should be in melee, IMO, without speed weapons...they don't get many uses of OS in BG and it's a fairly short duration and it takes until lvl 5 before they can dual-wield better then any other bard could (Technically all rogues are supposed to be able to put multiple points in TWF, while blades are supposed to simply start with max a creation....still have no idea why this was nerfed, since it makes thieves/bards even less useful in melee, with no real compensation..well..thieves got compensated sort of...BS is more powerful and easier to pull off then it is in PnP..but bards....why?...their song doesn't work correctly, the NCP system isn't included removing nearly half of their benefits...they have no counter song....their overall spell progression is nerfed (supposed to get casting up to 8th level by 28)), and when they're out of OS, they're just regular bards with less benefits.