It depends on playstyle and if you're in a party or not. If you're going to solo then Fighter/mage won't get hindered by sharing XP.
F/M has an easier early game than a Mage. And it's more 'Comfortable' and easier to play with one as you can buff up and go melee. But end game there really is no difference, F/M for solo game Mage for party.
How is DPS not the measure by which you go when evaluating efficiency? What else would you go by? What other objective measure is there?
Also, maximums don't really matter; DB can be 200 damage, but it has exactly the same chance to be 20 damage, too. Not to mention it allows save for half. And remember that you are limited to 1 spell per round, unless under IA - which in itself takes time to cast, and more importantly a lvl9 spell slot.
While chaining under TS is nice, keep in mind that a) it doesn't work against Ascension bosses and some others (Demogorgon, Eclipse), and b) it further reduced damage output of the party because only the caster can act. I doubt you do as much damage as the other party members combined. This doesn't matter when flying solo, but solo is a special case anyhow.
I'm also getting the feeling that you are forgetting that I'm NOT talking about PURE fighters here. I'm just saying that physical damage > spell damage, and that for that very reason you want your casters to be dual/multi with a fighter part.
And again: I'm not saying that things can't be done. This is not what this is about. It's about how it's done BEST.
MF-Shapechange is powerful, but almost requires TS (for auto-hits). Several bosses/hard encounters include immunity to TS (and instant-death, since you mentioned it), see above. Outside of TS, your THAC0 is a problem, as are your defenses. Spending time buffing reduces damage output, I think I've mentioned that before.
2) Google it. There's tons of threads and videos out there about solo runs. I'm pretty sure I saw a thread about fighter solo Ascension on Insane, and one about cleric. Pure class of course. But AGAIN: this is not about PURE fighters.
3) Killing things as a MF effectively still translates to DPS; mob health/time, in this case. This isn't done for absolute values, but for comparison of different approaches. As for AoE spells, that is pretty much the only time spells trump melee damage, as their output proportionately increases with the number of enemies. There are very actual instances, though, where you face a large number of mobs that aren't irrelevant to begin with. And keep in mind that chaining Horrid Wiltings does take time, too.
4) Yes, they have tons of physical protections. And what, they don't have any magical ones or what? I'm pretty sure I've seen loads of those... And once you dispel, you rarely dispel one at a time - you're dispelling in bulk. And when you've dispelled the mage, might as well hack it down. Stoneskin isn't particularly effective, by the way - any form of elemental damage pierces right through it to interrupt spells.
5) I didn't mean literally anything. Anything relevant. Anything you need for a given fight, with meta-knowledge. But as you rightly said, it's mostly redundant anyway.
And because I haven only mentioned it about ten times already: I am NOT talking about PURE fighters. I don't know how you keep ignoring that, but I've said it many times, both in this post and in the previous one.
1.) I'm not measuring DPS because this isn't WoW where you fight enemies with several million health that take over 15 minutes to kill, where you have to make sure your playing efficient to hold your DPS.
In Baldur's gate 2 one spell or rather one chain can destroy the whole enemy team. So you won't have time to check DPS (Damage per second) as they instantly die the second you release your chain with Abi. Also the mindlfayer doesn't do any real damage so it doesn't have any DPS. But after 4 hits of no damage it kills the target.
Dps really isn't important and doesn't belong in a game like Baldur's Gate 2 where buffs and defense keep you alive instead of damage. A fighter can be hitting a lich for 2 minutes without doing any damage. That would be 0 dps for the fighter during the whole fight if he doesn't land a hit.
A chain is instant and doesn't take time to cast. There are very few things in the game that can survive that chain.
You don't have to chain under timestop, and i'm not talking about a party now. I would never use timestop when fighting melissan if had a party, ofcourse i'm talking about the mage alone.
Chain 3x Abi -> Mind flayer -> Instant kill (finger of death, power word kill) -> Physical damage -> Fireball -> Magic missile.
The sorcerer is a better and more powerful choise than the F/M as you don't need the fighter levels to kill stuff. And the sorcerer lets you pick spells that you wouldn't be able to get scrolls of before much later in the game.
Very few enemies are immune to timestop. And you can still drain the with a mindflayer, it won't be as quick or reliable but it's possible. Now for the enemies that aren't immune to it (Yaga shura) you eat them up much faster than any fighter or melee could. Not to mention most enemies that are immune to timestop are going to destroy a fighter or melee class.
2.) Link me a fighter that does solo ascension with SCS or tactics. It's that simple really. I haven't heard or seen it be done and would love to see it myself. You can't heal enough and the ascension fight with Melissan is not one battle, but several after eachother that won't let you rest (Divine casters can't win this solo either, an arcane caster got wish so he can refresh his spells and that's the only reason it's possible for them.
3.) You're wrong here. The term DPS is mainly used and crowned from MMORPG (WoW is the reason it got famous, the term that is) And DPS stands for 'Damage per second' . Mindflayer hits around 4-8 damage so it wouldn't have much more than 3-4 damage per seconds but it can still kill someone in 4-5 seconds. What you don't understand is that Abi will still deal 200 damage to the main target. The highest damage you will deal per hit as a fighter is 50 and that's with all buffs and Critical strike HLA.
I'll say this again. Very few enemies in Baldur's gate has over 200+ health. So if you instantly kill it with a chain of Abi or finger of death, DPS doesn't mater.
4.) Every single magical protection in the game can be gotten around by the mage. Summons or shapeshift yourself. There is no protection that you can't get around as a arcane caster. The fighter can't do anything against the spells i mentioned, while the mage will still kill the target. Stoneskin is one of the best spells in the game, yes elemental damage will interrupt your spells but for the next 20 attacks you'll deal almost no damage to the mage with stoneskin up.
Mantle / Absolute immunity / Protection from magical weapon Mirror image Stoneskin -24 AC
There is no way for a fighter to get through that quickly.
5.) The arcane caster is king in Baldur's gate 2. The blade is only as powerful as he is because he got magic. The reason F/M is powerful isn't because he got a weapon and grand mastery with it. It's because he can protect himself with the magic.
Chain Contingency can be set so that it releases the second you see an enemy. So it's not only instant, but it's the instant a red circle pops up on the screen.
are you suggesting that kensai/mage is weaker than pure caster? is he overrated? every bg player on earth is wrong!!!
I'm saying that the Kensai/mage is weaker than the sorcerer because the sorcerer gets spells much earlier than you would be able to with the Kensai/mage. Already before going to spellhold you can have all your level 9 spells on your sorcerer while you're stuck with only certain ones on your kensai/mage.
And the sorcerer will have more spells than the Kensai/mage. So yes i would say that a Sorcerer is more powerful than a Kensai/mage.
3. If you're running a Wish-exploit arcanist or a 15-year-due-to-resting-run-of-BG2 (obviously exaggerated), sure non-magical damage doesn't matter.
4. Fighter with one of the usual +6 Weapons/Non-magical weapons + Greater Whirlwind Attack/Ring of Gaxx, as mantle-like spells (Absolute Immunity is included) and Pfmw are mutually exclusive.
If it's pre-Abyss, pre-level-9-spells: Improved Mace of Disruption or any similar enchanted weapon.
If you're implying that you took the good path in the abyss to snag yourself immunity to normal weapons, state it please.
Moreover, you're obviously not mentioning various spells here, or how do you get that -24 AC?
As an interesting fact, +6 weapons are not limited to: - Ravager+6 - Ixil's Spike +6 - Carsomyr +6 - Staff of the Ram +6
they also include the following attack items from spells: - Black Blade of Disaster (mentioned in spell description) - Melf's Minute Meteors (mentioned in spell description) - Cause Critical Wounds - Harm - Slay Living - Fire Seed - Cause Serious Wounds - Searing Orb
10th
4.) If you're going to use a non-magical weapon you will have to get through every single stoneskin and mirror image before you can interrupt him. There is not a single non-magical weapon that can deal elemental damage or slow their casting speed (FoA +5) . Before you get through all of his buffs you're dead one way or the other.
5.)
10 AC (Base AC) 1 AC (Spirit armor) -3 AC (18 Dexterity) -5 AC (Gaxx) -8 AC (Ring of protection +3) -9 AC (Cloak of the sewer) -12 AC (Blur) -16 AC (Improved Invisibility) -18 AC (Staff of the magi) -20 AC (DHUM if it's CHARNAME) -23 AC* (Belts)
This is situational, but if you know what you will fight ahead of time then you can get +3 from here.
I'm sure there is something i'm forgetting but there you go. Not to mention you can run around naked with 10AC if you want because with stoneskin and protection from magical weapons you won't get hit.
And yes if you get the tear for protection from none magical weapons you're totally immune.
1.) Yes the monsters are immune to instant deaths. But very few to almost none are immune to draining your ability as that doesn't count as instant death. There have been certain characters that have been immune or impossible to kill that have been taken down by mind flayers draining their intellect.
2.) The sorcerer can get timestop and all level 9 spells much earlier than you normally would get the in the game. So yes they are more powerful than the F/M if you solo.
3.) The sorcerer /wild mage (If you feel lucky) are the most powerful in the game and yes they can go toe to toe with anything in the game including mods. In our No reload thread you had naked sorcerers going through Insane tactics / SCS with ascension and not dying a single time in the game.
"What do you mean they are going to destroy a fighter? Why? You have higher AC, the same buffs as a mage, and more HP - how is it a problem? "
AC doesn't matter as almost all of the hard bosses will beat the shit out of your -24 AC. The only thing that will save you is resistance to damage. How does your fighter have the same buffs as a mage? And why would the mage need -24 AC or 3 000 health if s/he is immune to all damage already?
4.) If it's so easy then link me a movie or thread about it. I have been with some of the best in both the normal solo / tactics thread and the no-reload ones. It's impossible to beat Melissan solo on Ascension with difficulty mods, if you're not an arcane caster.
5.) A fighter does no damage against a caster with stoneskin, PFMW and buffs up. A mage will always be able to do damage. DPS means nothing if you can't hit the enemy you're fighting. All the hard fights in the game are against enemies what can do arcane magic.
How do you fight a mage all day long when you're doing no damage to him through his buffs. And he throws a timestop at you and either destroy you with spells, shapeshift into Golem or Mindflayer and beat the shit out of you, or just throw imprisonment on you.
6.) I have played several of my games on Insane with SCS and other difficulty enhancing mods installed, thank you very much. Health doesn't matter if you can outlast them. And a fighter can't do this but an arcane caster can because of Wish. Planetar, 4 skeletal warriors that are all hasted and of you go.
This is also another point. How is a fighter dealing more 'DPS' Than 1 planetar and 4 skeletal warriors that are all hasted. And yourself shapeshifted into an iron golem?
7.)
"At the risk of repeating myself: I'm not talking about pure fighters. All the dispels are the same. "
I don't understand this one. We're talking about pure fighters (Fighter,Ranger,Paladin). If you're going to mention F/M then you probably know where the power is comming from in the combination. It sure isn't the fighter.
8.) I have tried to say several times. You don't need to deal any damage to kill enemies. Mages can kill most enemies fine without dealing any damage.
And if it comes down to speed, then the mage summoning 1 planetar and 4 skeleton warriors will deal a ton more damage than a fighter will.
This will be my last post here. I really have to cut down on my walls of text. To put my point very simple :
Arcane casters are the king in Baldur's gate 2. Not only for making themself immune to everything, but also for having the ability to fight well in melee themself (Shapeshift, timestop, buffs). For the ability to cast several AoE spells for huge amounts of damage that can clear out a whole adventure party. They are the only ones that can remove and utterly strip the buffs of the enemy (Mages and clerics alike). And they can fear, stun or instantly kill.
With robe of Vecna and Improved Alacrity they will be able to throw spells out incredible fast. And with wish they can refresh their spell book. Arcane casters are the only ones in the game that can fight forever. You won't run out of healing potions or spells (Divine casters) or anything else.
They can summon up a whole army that when buffed will rip most enemies to shred. Skeletal warriors are incredible powerful, and the planetar is a wrecking ball.
If you look at Improved Anvil, the most difficult mod in the whole game. The one class that got the most nerfs, and constantly were arcane casters. They haven't nerfed fighters and barely touched clerics and thiefs (Except trap) but all arcane casters included the blade got hit with the nerf bat in the Groin.
Anyway it was a nice discussion but i'll jump out here, and try to remember to stop the walls of text
I'd say kensai/mage would be a lot more fun to play, though. Stoneskin helps a lot in melee, and Tenser's Transformation finds some whole new perspectives. Or maybe just cast Time Stop and kill everyone with swords instead of spamming Horrid Wilting (though you could finish off casting one of those too if you like).
That's not the topic of this discussion, of course, but I'm just saying.
I'm saying that the Kensai/mage is weaker than the sorcerer because the sorcerer gets spells much earlier than you would be able to with the Kensai/mage. Already before going to spellhold you can have all your level 9 spells on your sorcerer while you're stuck with only certain ones on your kensai/mage.
By that logic, Archer is more powerful than either, because by the time you have 2 level 1 spells, Archers destroy every mob at range while laughing at them.
Is Sorcerer powerful more quickly? Yes. Any single class will reach a certain level of power more quickly than a respective dual/multi class combination. The thing is, though: the actually hard fights are all towards the end of the game. There's a few challenging ones earlier (Improved Illyich, Improved Faldorn), but the vast majority of challenges is fairly late in the game.
Since both power and challenges progress in a non-linear fashion, it's fairly difficult, if not impossible, to find a combination that is *the* best at *every* point in the game. Sorcerer becomes very good quite quickly, but an early plateau doesn't necessarily mean much. As the game progresses, a F->M (K->M is the prime example) will catch up, and eventually surpass the Sorcerer in power. While early lvl9 spells are a great thing to have, you are also using them against fairly irrelevant mobs.
And the sorcerer will have more spells than the Kensai/mage. So yes i would say that a Sorcerer is more powerful than a Kensai/mage.
Except that, as I demonstrated at length, spells do less damage than melee attacks, and the Kensai->Mage will have access to the same buff/dispel effects. Spell slots don't matter much, since there's only about 2 spells per level you want to cast anyway. Resting carries practically no penalty. The only reason you rely on your spell slots with a Sorcerer is because you can't do anything if you're not casting - a Kensai->Mage will happily tear through enemies without even bothering to cast a spell a lot of the time, and often the only thing you do cast is Improved Haste.
4.) If you're going to use a non-magical weapon you will have to get through every single stoneskin and mirror image before you can interrupt him. There is not a single non-magical weapon that can deal elemental damage or slow their casting speed (FoA +5) . Before you get through all of his buffs you're dead one way or the other.
First of all, Firetooth with non-magical bolts will pierce PfMW and do fire damage through Stoneskin.
Secondly, please show me the enemy that puts up melee defenses, but no spell defenses. Spell Immunity, Protection from Magical Energy, Spell Trap, those seem almost standard pre-buffs for SCSII mages (not to mention inherent spell-level immunities from things like liches). No big deal, just pop a dispel - but wait, now you're dispelling already, so you can just dispel the physical protections as well, right? So what exactly is the difference?
1.) Yes the monsters are immune to instant deaths. But very few to almost none are immune to draining your ability as that doesn't count as instant death. There have been certain characters that have been immune or impossible to kill that have been taken down by mind flayers draining their intellect.
I know. I even said so. Still, to actually hit enemies at that level you basically *need* Timestop. I'm not denying that going MF is a good strategy for some enemies, but to be honest I remember exactly one where it's better than going in and killing things normally: Yaga-Shura.
Not that it matters anyway: a F/M or F->M can also use Shapechange. In fact, they can use it better, because their THAC0 is much lower.
3.) The sorcerer /wild mage (If you feel lucky) are the most powerful in the game and yes they can go toe to toe with anything in the game including mods. In our No reload thread you had naked sorcerers going through Insane tactics / SCS with ascension and not dying a single time in the game.
That is entirely true. It's also irrelevant. This discussion isn't about what's possible - it's about what is best and most efficient. Can you do it solo? Yes. Can you do it faster in a party? Also yes. Powergaming is first and foremost about efficiency, and secondarily about challenges. Challenges follow their own rules, and priorities shift considerably under their special circumstances.
How does your fighter have the same buffs as a mage? And why would the mage need -24 AC or 3 000 health if s/he is immune to all damage already?
They have the same buffs, because they are also mages. They won't have them as early, but then again it doesn't really matter that early in the game, does it.
4.) If it's so easy then link me a movie or thread about it. I have been with some of the best in both the normal solo / tactics thread and the no-reload ones. It's impossible to beat Melissan solo on Ascension with difficulty mods, if you're not an arcane caster.
5.) A fighter does no damage against a caster with stoneskin, PFMW and buffs up. A mage will always be able to do damage. DPS means nothing if you can't hit the enemy you're fighting. All the hard fights in the game are against enemies what can do arcane magic.
Again, F/M does include mage, too. Nobody is talking about pure fighters except you, for whatever reason.
6.) I have played several of my games on Insane with SCS and other difficulty enhancing mods installed, thank you very much. Health doesn't matter if you can outlast them. And a fighter can't do this but an arcane caster can because of Wish. Planetar, 4 skeletal warriors that are all hasted and of you go.
I've never seen use for Wish outside of solo caster games. No party should be faced with a situation where spells run out, if you do, you've planned poorly.
This is also another point. How is a fighter dealing more 'DPS' Than 1 planetar and 4 skeletal warriors that are all hasted. And yourself shapeshifted into an iron golem?
Because while you are sitting there casting summons and buffs, I'm already on the next fight. Time does include stuff you do before combat, you know.
I don't understand this one. We're talking about pure fighters (Fighter,Ranger,Paladin). If you're going to mention F/M then you probably know where the power is comming from in the combination. It sure isn't the fighter.
That's the thing, really. The only one talking about pure fighters is you. I've always talked about using fighters for their damage in a CASTER DUAL/MULTI CLASS COMBINATION. I've pointed this out several times. In large letters. With emphasis. In no uncertain terms.
8.) I have tried to say several times. You don't need to deal any damage to kill enemies. Mages can kill most enemies fine without dealing any damage.
And how do you compare killing an enemy with damage vs. killing an enemy through other means? Oh right... take the enemy HP and divide it by the time it takes. That's effective DPS right there, regardless of whether or not you are actually using damage.
And if it comes down to speed, then the mage summoning 1 planetar and 4 skeleton warriors will deal a ton more damage than a fighter will.
Really. You know how long it takes to summon all that? You know how much damage I deal with 10 APR in that time?
And just one more time, because it really seems to escape: I am not, *not*, NOT, _NOT_ talking about pure fighters. I am talking about multi/dual class combinations of fighters and arcane casters, using the caster part for buffs/debuffs/dispels, and the fighter part for HP/damage.
I'm saying that the Kensai/mage is weaker than the sorcerer because the sorcerer gets spells much earlier than you would be able to with the Kensai/mage. Already before going to spellhold you can have all your level 9 spells on your sorcerer while you're stuck with only certain ones on your kensai/mage.
By that logic, Archer is more powerful than either, because by the time you have 2 level 1 spells, Archers destroy every mob at range while laughing at them.
Is Sorcerer powerful more quickly? Yes. Any single class will reach a certain level of power more quickly than a respective dual/multi class combination. The thing is, though: the actually hard fights are all towards the end of the game. There's a few challenging ones earlier (Improved Illyich, Improved Faldorn), but the vast majority of challenges is fairly late in the game.
Since both power and challenges progress in a non-linear fashion, it's fairly difficult, if not impossible, to find a combination that is *the* best at *every* point in the game. Sorcerer becomes very good quite quickly, but an early plateau doesn't necessarily mean much. As the game progresses, a F->M (K->M is the prime example) will catch up, and eventually surpass the Sorcerer in power. While early lvl9 spells are a great thing to have, you are also using them against fairly irrelevant mobs.
And the sorcerer will have more spells than the Kensai/mage. So yes i would say that a Sorcerer is more powerful than a Kensai/mage.
Except that, as I demonstrated at length, spells do less damage than melee attacks, and the Kensai->Mage will have access to the same buff/dispel effects. Spell slots don't matter much, since there's only about 2 spells per level you want to cast anyway. Resting carries practically no penalty. The only reason you rely on your spell slots with a Sorcerer is because you can't do anything if you're not casting - a Kensai->Mage will happily tear through enemies without even bothering to cast a spell a lot of the time, and often the only thing you do cast is Improved Haste.
4.) If you're going to use a non-magical weapon you will have to get through every single stoneskin and mirror image before you can interrupt him. There is not a single non-magical weapon that can deal elemental damage or slow their casting speed (FoA +5) . Before you get through all of his buffs you're dead one way or the other.
First of all, Firetooth with non-magical bolts will pierce PfMW and do fire damage through Stoneskin.
Secondly, please show me the enemy that puts up melee defenses, but no spell defenses. Spell Immunity, Protection from Magical Energy, Spell Trap, those seem almost standard pre-buffs for SCSII mages (not to mention inherent spell-level immunities from things like liches). No big deal, just pop a dispel - but wait, now you're dispelling already, so you can just dispel the physical protections as well, right? So what exactly is the difference?
1.) Yes the monsters are immune to instant deaths. But very few to almost none are immune to draining your ability as that doesn't count as instant death. There have been certain characters that have been immune or impossible to kill that have been taken down by mind flayers draining their intellect.
I know. I even said so. Still, to actually hit enemies at that level you basically *need* Timestop. I'm not denying that going MF is a good strategy for some enemies, but to be honest I remember exactly one where it's better than going in and killing things normally: Yaga-Shura.
Not that it matters anyway: a F/M or F->M can also use Shapechange. In fact, they can use it better, because their THAC0 is much lower.
3.) The sorcerer /wild mage (If you feel lucky) are the most powerful in the game and yes they can go toe to toe with anything in the game including mods. In our No reload thread you had naked sorcerers going through Insane tactics / SCS with ascension and not dying a single time in the game.
That is entirely true. It's also irrelevant. This discussion isn't about what's possible - it's about what is best and most efficient. Can you do it solo? Yes. Can you do it faster in a party? Also yes. Powergaming is first and foremost about efficiency, and secondarily about challenges. Challenges follow their own rules, and priorities shift considerably under their special circumstances.
How does your fighter have the same buffs as a mage? And why would the mage need -24 AC or 3 000 health if s/he is immune to all damage already?
They have the same buffs, because they are also mages. They won't have them as early, but then again it doesn't really matter that early in the game, does it.
4.) If it's so easy then link me a movie or thread about it. I have been with some of the best in both the normal solo / tactics thread and the no-reload ones. It's impossible to beat Melissan solo on Ascension with difficulty mods, if you're not an arcane caster.
5.) A fighter does no damage against a caster with stoneskin, PFMW and buffs up. A mage will always be able to do damage. DPS means nothing if you can't hit the enemy you're fighting. All the hard fights in the game are against enemies what can do arcane magic.
Again, F/M does include mage, too. Nobody is talking about pure fighters except you, for whatever reason.
6.) I have played several of my games on Insane with SCS and other difficulty enhancing mods installed, thank you very much. Health doesn't matter if you can outlast them. And a fighter can't do this but an arcane caster can because of Wish. Planetar, 4 skeletal warriors that are all hasted and of you go.
I've never seen use for Wish outside of solo caster games. No party should be faced with a situation where spells run out, if you do, you've planned poorly.
This is also another point. How is a fighter dealing more 'DPS' Than 1 planetar and 4 skeletal warriors that are all hasted. And yourself shapeshifted into an iron golem?
Because while you are sitting there casting summons and buffs, I'm already on the next fight. Time does include stuff you do before combat, you know.
I don't understand this one. We're talking about pure fighters (Fighter,Ranger,Paladin). If you're going to mention F/M then you probably know where the power is comming from in the combination. It sure isn't the fighter.
That's the thing, really. The only one talking about pure fighters is you. I've always talked about using fighters for their damage in a CASTER DUAL/MULTI CLASS COMBINATION. I've pointed this out several times. In large letters. With emphasis. In no uncertain terms.
8.) I have tried to say several times. You don't need to deal any damage to kill enemies. Mages can kill most enemies fine without dealing any damage.
And how do you compare killing an enemy with damage vs. killing an enemy through other means? Oh right... take the enemy HP and divide it by the time it takes. That's effective DPS right there, regardless of whether or not you are actually using damage.
And if it comes down to speed, then the mage summoning 1 planetar and 4 skeleton warriors will deal a ton more damage than a fighter will.
Really. You know how long it takes to summon all that? You know how much damage I deal with 10 APR in that time?
And just one more time, because it really seems to escape: I am not, *not*, NOT, _NOT_ talking about pure fighters. I am talking about multi/dual class combinations of fighters and arcane casters, using the caster part for buffs/debuffs/dispels, and the fighter part for HP/damage.
That's great! Then we can reach an agreement here
Mages are powerful. Sorcerers are powerful. Fighter/Mages are powerful because they got arcane magic. Fighters aren't nearly as powerful because they don't have arcane magic.
Arcane magic is the king, it doesn't matter how much DPS you have or how many +6 weapons you have if you don't have arcane magic there with you.
Anyway, this really is my last post here. Thank you for a great discussion, it's too bad we went past eachother. I wouldn't have kept this discussion going if i knew we weren't talking about fighters (Fighter,Ranger,Paladin) It's obviouse that the F/M is a powerful character but that's 90% because of the arcane magic they have.
[Edited] : Firetooth will deal no damage against protection from normal missiles.
where it breaks down is the fact that so long as a fighter has hit points, he can keep on trucking along where the wizard falls flat out of gas.
A wizard can cast Wish and refresh all of his spells. So he will never run out of gas.
So long as he has wish spell. It's (a) a ninth level and therefore not available through most of SoA. (b) Dependent on having a high wisdom so that you get the desired effect. it isn't a guaranteed thing. And since I don't min/max such that my Wizard has an 18 Wis, it definitely isn't a guaranteed thing. (c) quite a bit of cheese. not that it wasn't intended to be that effect, just that I am sure the game developers didn't intend players to spam it such that you got unlimited spell casting.
@Lord_Tansheron - I get that you weren't talking about strictly single class fighters or wizards. However as someone who DOES play a pure class wizard almost every time, I can say that they get hideously powerful in the late game, significantly more powerful than fighters of equal level. The ability to cast effects that completely destroy the enemy strategy is much more significant than DPS.
And mid game (SoA), the level differential DOES make a significant difference between a straight caster and a F/M. My current run through has me in Spellhold with a 15th level Wizard Charname and a 11/13 (ish) Jan. Believe me, Charname is all over Jan in terms of power. Basically for the first 50+ hours of game play or more, your multi-class caster is going to be SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful than a straight caster.
Just want to put this out there; someone (possibly on this forum, I don't remember) has already beaten the game fully modded to the highest difficulty as a pure fighter. The Mellisan fight(s) took days to beat. So yeah, it is possible. With minimal cheese too, to boot.
Just want to put this out there; someone (possibly on this forum, I don't remember) has already beaten the game fully modded to the highest difficulty as a pure fighter. The Mellisan fight(s) took days to beat. So yeah, it is possible. With minimal cheese too, to boot.
We're talking about Melissan with SCS and ascension on highest difficulty. It's not possible as the fight is split up in several fights that get increasingly more difficult, and you can't heal through the damage you get with potions anymore. I'm sure you can get through the first phase but after that it won't be possible anymore. Unless he cheated in an unlimited amount of scrolls or changed his stats this just wouldn't be possible. Not even with two fully stacked rods of ressurection (for the heal) would you make it.
Until i can see how he did it, or read step by step the fight i just can't believe this.
[Edited]: I would be happy to be proven otherwise.
Somebody said that the fully tricked-out Melissan could only be beaten by an arcane caster. I'm pretty sure I read a run by Alesia-BH in the old forum where she did it with an avenger. She got through most of the game to that point by putting just the right magic items and weapons on her sword spider, because apparently some of the affixes carry through to the form.
She beat every other battle including the last one just because she had the whole game memorized perfectly, right down to exactly where the bosses would appear and in what order. She's done it with a thief, too, making use of every potion and expendable charge item in the game exactly at the right moment. She can actually plan for every encounter in the game as far as what magic item or potion she needs to beat it.
and peruse the writings of the great BG no-reload masters, especially Alesia-BH. Corey Russel and Grond0 are no slouches at it either, and the same game masters still have runs going on right now.
I think you'll be amazed at what can be done with any class using perfect memorization.
EDIT: I forgot to mention Gate70. Honestly, I don't think any of the true gamemasters come here much, as most of them didn't adopt BG:EE for whatever reason. They're still doing their amazing things in the same old thread. I've been reading their runs for years and years before BG:EE.
and peruse the writings of the great BG no-reload masters, especially Alesia-BH. Corey Russel and Grond0 are no slouches at it either, and the same game masters still have runs going on right now.
I think you'll be amazed at what can be done with any class using perfect memorization.
That's the ones i'm talking about. If you look earlier to my post i mentioned alesia. I used to do No-reload runs in those threads with mentioned people. And alesia was the one that mentioned it wasn't possible with insane SCS ascension melissan with a beastmaster, or any other fighter.
It's amazing what you can do with classes like clerics, rogues, mages and the like. But you really can't do that much special with a pure fighter. The only variety you get are scrolls, potions and perhaps the vhailor helm.
@SionIV, ah, okay, I stand corrected then. I sort of see Alesia-BH as the ultimate authority on what can and can't be done. If she has spoken concerning anything BG, then I believe it.
So long as he has wish spell. It's (a) a ninth level and therefore not available through most of SoA. (b) Dependent on having a high wisdom so that you get the desired effect. it isn't a guaranteed thing. And since I don't min/max such that my Wizard has an 18 Wis, it definitely isn't a guaranteed thing.
I think he was talking about Sorcerer mainly, who does get it fairly quickly (lvl18 at the earliest). Sorcerers also don't need any stats per se, so they can easily max out their WIS.
@Lord_Tansheron - I get that you weren't talking about strictly single class fighters or wizards. However as someone who DOES play a pure class wizard almost every time, I can say that they get hideously powerful in the late game, significantly more powerful than fighters of equal level. The ability to cast effects that completely destroy the enemy strategy is much more significant than DPS.
And mid game (SoA), the level differential DOES make a significant difference between a straight caster and a F/M. My current run through has me in Spellhold with a 15th level Wizard Charname and a 11/13 (ish) Jan. Believe me, Charname is all over Jan in terms of power. Basically for the first 50+ hours of game play or more, your multi-class caster is going to be SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful than a straight caster.
Arcane casters are incredibly powerful at higher levels, I completely agree. Their ONLY weakness is that their damage output isn't actually spectacular; adding a fighter into the mix remedies that.
The level difference makes a difference to be sure, but it's not as significant as you might think if your enemies are actually tough enough. With max HP rolls they are resilient enough that your spells don't just blast them to pieces, and not having physical damage to rely on is quite the drawback.
That being said, it's also not optimal to run small parties; if you do, differences may be more pronounced. Large parties have enough power to compensate for momentarily lacking characters (dual class in particular), while in small parties you may find yourself in a tough spot if you don't meta-game hard and save up big XP chunks strategically.
Not sure where you get the "first 50+ hours" from, that's enough to beat the game twice over.
@Lord_tansheron - Fair enough. Min/Maxing stats can make Wish quite cheesable. Since i don't min/max and try not to cheese (very much), I don't think it is a guaranteed thing.
I also agree that wizards tap out after a certain point. or worse, try and conserve for the 'Tough' battles and end up not casting when they should. All of which speaks to the need for a balanced party like you said.
Finally, I go on every single quest, I find every single thing that i can, and if I don't like the outcome of something, I play it again till I get it right. So playing through BG1-BG2 can easily take me 50+ hours before I get to 9th level spells.
@SionIV, ah, okay, I stand corrected then. I sort of see Alesia-BH as the ultimate authority on what can and can't be done. If she has spoken concerning anything BG, then I believe it.
I feel the same here. If she say it can't be done i'm going to take her word for it until someone has proven otherwise.
Can't really say how long BG1 takes, especially if you really do EVERYTHING there. My experience with BG1 is limited, but BG2 and ToB I breeze through pretty quickly.
There are, but I've been playing this game for over ten years. I know what to do by now :P
I have played a number of times, but other than my current play through, the last time was several years back. You have me beat on devotion to the game. My hat is off to you.
Comments
And the sorcerer will have more spells than the Kensai/mage. So yes i would say that a Sorcerer is more powerful than a Kensai/mage. 4.) If you're going to use a non-magical weapon you will have to get through every single stoneskin and mirror image before you can interrupt him. There is not a single non-magical weapon that can deal elemental damage or slow their casting speed (FoA +5) . Before you get through all of his buffs you're dead one way or the other.
5.)
10 AC (Base AC)
1 AC (Spirit armor)
-3 AC (18 Dexterity)
-5 AC (Gaxx)
-8 AC (Ring of protection +3)
-9 AC (Cloak of the sewer)
-12 AC (Blur)
-16 AC (Improved Invisibility)
-18 AC (Staff of the magi)
-20 AC (DHUM if it's CHARNAME)
-23 AC* (Belts)
This is situational, but if you know what you will fight ahead of time then you can get +3 from here.
I'm sure there is something i'm forgetting but there you go. Not to mention you can run around naked with 10AC if you want because with stoneskin and protection from magical weapons you won't get hit.
And yes if you get the tear for protection from none magical weapons you're totally immune.
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Lord_Tansheron
1.) Yes the monsters are immune to instant deaths. But very few to almost none are immune to draining your ability as that doesn't count as instant death. There have been certain characters that have been immune or impossible to kill that have been taken down by mind flayers draining their intellect.
2.) The sorcerer can get timestop and all level 9 spells much earlier than you normally would get the in the game. So yes they are more powerful than the F/M if you solo.
3.) The sorcerer /wild mage (If you feel lucky) are the most powerful in the game and yes they can go toe to toe with anything in the game including mods. In our No reload thread you had naked sorcerers going through Insane tactics / SCS with ascension and not dying a single time in the game.
"What do you mean they are going to destroy a fighter? Why? You have higher AC, the same buffs as a mage, and more HP - how is it a problem? "
AC doesn't matter as almost all of the hard bosses will beat the shit out of your -24 AC. The only thing that will save you is resistance to damage. How does your fighter have the same buffs as a mage? And why would the mage need -24 AC or 3 000 health if s/he is immune to all damage already?
4.) If it's so easy then link me a movie or thread about it. I have been with some of the best in both the normal solo / tactics thread and the no-reload ones. It's impossible to beat Melissan solo on Ascension with difficulty mods, if you're not an arcane caster.
5.) A fighter does no damage against a caster with stoneskin, PFMW and buffs up. A mage will always be able to do damage. DPS means nothing if you can't hit the enemy you're fighting. All the hard fights in the game are against enemies what can do arcane magic.
How do you fight a mage all day long when you're doing no damage to him through his buffs. And he throws a timestop at you and either destroy you with spells, shapeshift into Golem or Mindflayer and beat the shit out of you, or just throw imprisonment on you.
6.) I have played several of my games on Insane with SCS and other difficulty enhancing mods installed, thank you very much. Health doesn't matter if you can outlast them. And a fighter can't do this but an arcane caster can because of Wish. Planetar, 4 skeletal warriors that are all hasted and of you go.
This is also another point. How is a fighter dealing more 'DPS' Than 1 planetar and 4 skeletal warriors that are all hasted. And yourself shapeshifted into an iron golem?
7.)
"At the risk of repeating myself: I'm not talking about pure fighters. All the dispels are the same. "
I don't understand this one. We're talking about pure fighters (Fighter,Ranger,Paladin). If you're going to mention F/M then you probably know where the power is comming from in the combination. It sure isn't the fighter.
8.) I have tried to say several times. You don't need to deal any damage to kill enemies. Mages can kill most enemies fine without dealing any damage.
And if it comes down to speed, then the mage summoning 1 planetar and 4 skeleton warriors will deal a ton more damage than a fighter will.
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This will be my last post here. I really have to cut down on my walls of text. To put my point very simple :
Arcane casters are the king in Baldur's gate 2. Not only for making themself immune to everything, but also for having the ability to fight well in melee themself (Shapeshift, timestop, buffs). For the ability to cast several AoE spells for huge amounts of damage that can clear out a whole adventure party. They are the only ones that can remove and utterly strip the buffs of the enemy (Mages and clerics alike). And they can fear, stun or instantly kill.
With robe of Vecna and Improved Alacrity they will be able to throw spells out incredible fast. And with wish they can refresh their spell book. Arcane casters are the only ones in the game that can fight forever. You won't run out of healing potions or spells (Divine casters) or anything else.
They can summon up a whole army that when buffed will rip most enemies to shred. Skeletal warriors are incredible powerful, and the planetar is a wrecking ball.
If you look at Improved Anvil, the most difficult mod in the whole game. The one class that got the most nerfs, and constantly were arcane casters. They haven't nerfed fighters and barely touched clerics and thiefs (Except trap) but all arcane casters included the blade got hit with the nerf bat in the Groin.
Anyway it was a nice discussion but i'll jump out here, and try to remember to stop the walls of text
[Edited] :
A wizard can cast Wish and refresh all of his spells. So he will never run out of gas.
That's not the topic of this discussion, of course, but I'm just saying.
Is Sorcerer powerful more quickly? Yes. Any single class will reach a certain level of power more quickly than a respective dual/multi class combination. The thing is, though: the actually hard fights are all towards the end of the game. There's a few challenging ones earlier (Improved Illyich, Improved Faldorn), but the vast majority of challenges is fairly late in the game.
Since both power and challenges progress in a non-linear fashion, it's fairly difficult, if not impossible, to find a combination that is *the* best at *every* point in the game. Sorcerer becomes very good quite quickly, but an early plateau doesn't necessarily mean much. As the game progresses, a F->M (K->M is the prime example) will catch up, and eventually surpass the Sorcerer in power. While early lvl9 spells are a great thing to have, you are also using them against fairly irrelevant mobs.
Except that, as I demonstrated at length, spells do less damage than melee attacks, and the Kensai->Mage will have access to the same buff/dispel effects. Spell slots don't matter much, since there's only about 2 spells per level you want to cast anyway. Resting carries practically no penalty. The only reason you rely on your spell slots with a Sorcerer is because you can't do anything if you're not casting - a Kensai->Mage will happily tear through enemies without even bothering to cast a spell a lot of the time, and often the only thing you do cast is Improved Haste. First of all, Firetooth with non-magical bolts will pierce PfMW and do fire damage through Stoneskin.
Secondly, please show me the enemy that puts up melee defenses, but no spell defenses. Spell Immunity, Protection from Magical Energy, Spell Trap, those seem almost standard pre-buffs for SCSII mages (not to mention inherent spell-level immunities from things like liches). No big deal, just pop a dispel - but wait, now you're dispelling already, so you can just dispel the physical protections as well, right? So what exactly is the difference?
I know. I even said so. Still, to actually hit enemies at that level you basically *need* Timestop. I'm not denying that going MF is a good strategy for some enemies, but to be honest I remember exactly one where it's better than going in and killing things normally: Yaga-Shura.
Not that it matters anyway: a F/M or F->M can also use Shapechange. In fact, they can use it better, because their THAC0 is much lower. That is entirely true. It's also irrelevant. This discussion isn't about what's possible - it's about what is best and most efficient. Can you do it solo? Yes. Can you do it faster in a party? Also yes. Powergaming is first and foremost about efficiency, and secondarily about challenges. Challenges follow their own rules, and priorities shift considerably under their special circumstances.
They have the same buffs, because they are also mages. They won't have them as early, but then again it doesn't really matter that early in the game, does it. There's several creative strategies to beat her (Mind Flayer Circlets, certain other items). Check http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/182/index/14285607/1 and http://forums.bioware.com/viewtopic.html?topic=638045&forum=18, those I got by spending 1 minute on google. I'm sure if you search more thoroughly you'll come up with more.
Again, F/M does include mage, too. Nobody is talking about pure fighters except you, for whatever reason. I've never seen use for Wish outside of solo caster games. No party should be faced with a situation where spells run out, if you do, you've planned poorly. Because while you are sitting there casting summons and buffs, I'm already on the next fight. Time does include stuff you do before combat, you know. That's the thing, really. The only one talking about pure fighters is you. I've always talked about using fighters for their damage in a CASTER DUAL/MULTI CLASS COMBINATION. I've pointed this out several times. In large letters. With emphasis. In no uncertain terms. And how do you compare killing an enemy with damage vs. killing an enemy through other means? Oh right... take the enemy HP and divide it by the time it takes. That's effective DPS right there, regardless of whether or not you are actually using damage. Really. You know how long it takes to summon all that? You know how much damage I deal with 10 APR in that time?
And just one more time, because it really seems to escape: I am not, *not*, NOT, _NOT_ talking about pure fighters. I am talking about multi/dual class combinations of fighters and arcane casters, using the caster part for buffs/debuffs/dispels, and the fighter part for HP/damage.
Mages are powerful.
Sorcerers are powerful.
Fighter/Mages are powerful because they got arcane magic.
Fighters aren't nearly as powerful because they don't have arcane magic.
Arcane magic is the king, it doesn't matter how much DPS you have or how many +6 weapons you have if you don't have arcane magic there with you.
Anyway, this really is my last post here. Thank you for a great discussion, it's too bad we went past eachother. I wouldn't have kept this discussion going if i knew we weren't talking about fighters (Fighter,Ranger,Paladin) It's obviouse that the F/M is a powerful character but that's 90% because of the arcane magic they have.
[Edited] : Firetooth will deal no damage against protection from normal missiles.
@Lord_Tansheron - I get that you weren't talking about strictly single class fighters or wizards. However as someone who DOES play a pure class wizard almost every time, I can say that they get hideously powerful in the late game, significantly more powerful than fighters of equal level. The ability to cast effects that completely destroy the enemy strategy is much more significant than DPS.
And mid game (SoA), the level differential DOES make a significant difference between a straight caster and a F/M. My current run through has me in Spellhold with a 15th level Wizard Charname and a 11/13 (ish) Jan. Believe me, Charname is all over Jan in terms of power. Basically for the first 50+ hours of game play or more, your multi-class caster is going to be SIGNIFICANTLY less powerful than a straight caster.
Until i can see how he did it, or read step by step the fight i just can't believe this.
[Edited]: I would be happy to be proven otherwise.
She beat every other battle including the last one just because she had the whole game memorized perfectly, right down to exactly where the bosses would appear and in what order. She's done it with a thief, too, making use of every potion and expendable charge item in the game exactly at the right moment. She can actually plan for every encounter in the game as far as what magic item or potion she needs to beat it.
and peruse the writings of the great BG no-reload masters, especially Alesia-BH. Corey Russel and Grond0 are no slouches at it either, and the same game masters still have runs going on right now.
I think you'll be amazed at what can be done with any class using perfect memorization.
EDIT: I forgot to mention Gate70. Honestly, I don't think any of the true gamemasters come here much, as most of them didn't adopt BG:EE for whatever reason. They're still doing their amazing things in the same old thread. I've been reading their runs for years and years before BG:EE.
It's amazing what you can do with classes like clerics, rogues, mages and the like. But you really can't do that much special with a pure fighter. The only variety you get are scrolls, potions and perhaps the vhailor helm.
The level difference makes a difference to be sure, but it's not as significant as you might think if your enemies are actually tough enough. With max HP rolls they are resilient enough that your spells don't just blast them to pieces, and not having physical damage to rely on is quite the drawback.
That being said, it's also not optimal to run small parties; if you do, differences may be more pronounced. Large parties have enough power to compensate for momentarily lacking characters (dual class in particular), while in small parties you may find yourself in a tough spot if you don't meta-game hard and save up big XP chunks strategically.
Not sure where you get the "first 50+ hours" from, that's enough to beat the game twice over.
I also agree that wizards tap out after a certain point. or worse, try and conserve for the 'Tough' battles and end up not casting when they should. All of which speaks to the need for a balanced party like you said.
Finally, I go on every single quest, I find every single thing that i can, and if I don't like the outcome of something, I play it again till I get it right. So playing through BG1-BG2 can easily take me 50+ hours before I get to 9th level spells.
insane
party of hasted archers npc + cleric/fighter + edwin
the only faster way of doing everything would be (maybe) bard as archer/mage and no cleric and many many tries of not failing?