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Well This is Awkward, eh Keldorn? (Maybe Nonessential Spoiler?)

2

Comments

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    DreadKhan said:

    DreadKhan said:

    Ashiel said:

    Keldorn and Anomen can go kiss a beholder. :D

    I͝ ͢p͡r̷otes҉t!

    *hovers away*
    Come on, keldorn is so ruggedly handsome!

    Erm, unless you're a male beholder... Wait, do you guys HAVE genders?!
    W̨e d̷o n͠ót͜ n͜eed gend͜er̡s.͝ ̨W̕e͘ ̀have͞ ̷th̸e PERFECT FORM ͘by ͠n͠atu̢re̕.̨ ̶It is̵ ben͝eat́h͢ us to ͡l̢ov́ìng͜l̛y ͡ga҉z̢e̷ at ̡an ͞i͠m͝p̢er͠f́ect͞ ̛c̶re͜atu͜re͡ s̕u͜c͞h ͡as K҉eĺdo͢rņ, wi̛th̕ hi҉s̀ pun͞y ̕t͜w̶o͏ e͞y͠es̢.
    What if he was wielding a sword with the Eye of Tyr?

    Then, you know, he'd have 3.
    We͏l͝l̛,͡ ̢i̶t ͞w̵ou͠l̕d́ ́bȩ ͡a̕ st̨ar͞ţ.͟ I ̵h͘a̡v͝e ͠to a̕sk th͡oug̡h, h̕o̴w ̕M̷A̴J̡E͝SŢIC͢ wơu҉l̸d t̛h͠i͡s ̨new eye ̨b̷e҉?̶

  • AshielAshiel Member Posts: 254
    Yeah I just got done with the Haer'Dalis quest line, and the APL of my group is around 10-12 I think. I know Minsc and my Paladin just got to level 10 each I think, Jaheira is like Fighter X / Druid 12, and the rest of my casters (Jan, Viconia, and Aerie) are around level 10 each. I've got the dragon shield (so that's 25% resistance to fire, +20% from being a cavalier, +80% if I cast Protection from Fire), and I'll probably be fighting him with the Flail of Ages.

    I'm not sure what the dragon's saving throws are. I'm debating on whether or not to try and blind him. I've got a spell-sequencer with Blindness/Blindness in it, and counting the save penalty due to the G3 spell mod, each blindness is save at -2. I normally open fights with Greater Malison for another -4, and I could probably drop a doom on him for a total of -8 to his save. A pair of Blindness spells at -8 should - I hope - have a pretty decent chance to land (and the -10 to-hit penalty would go a long way in making his melee more survivable I think).

    The fact he's a red dragon means I'll need to swap out Viccy's MMMs for something else (maybe Skull Trap, Lightning Bolt, or more buffs). Might me a good time to spam the wands of frost I've been collecting (I sold 'em and stole 'em to recharge 'em, and I have at least 2 of them, and I think I can get a 3rd one of I defeat the party in the inn in the Promenade).

    So far I've done...
    - Haer'Dalis line
    - De'Arnise Keep
    - Copper Coronet
    - Baron Ployer's revenge on Jaheira
    - Lord Firkraag's trickery + rescued the boy
    - Xzar and the Harpers
    - Helping heal Jan's ex's daughter
    - The Fallen Paladins
    - The 1st & 2nd Paladin Quest line
    - Sent Keldorn to Maria (after ganking his armor and sword)
    - Cleared the upper tombs in the Graveyard district (thanks to Azure Edge mostly)
    - Minsc's search for Boo (from Unfinished Business)
    - Kalah's Circus Illusions

    With some miscellaneous killings in between (such as slaying vampires at night). I do so love the large quest XP at the end of a number of these. I think that's how I managed to get to around 10+ level with everyone. :)

  • AshielAshiel Member Posts: 254
    Well I've got the quest to go give Firkraag the proverbial finger and reclaim Carsomyr. Here's the hoping I'm ready for it (I know that dragon battles have a tendency to easily go very wrong without much warning). All 3 of my arcane casters have Lower Resistance ready to spam, and I'm going to try to blind the dragon (I think that would be a huge advantage as blindness tends to really limit their targeting options), and my wands are fully charged. I need to pick up some scrolls from the temples before I go but I think I'm fairly well prepared. :o

    I'm trying to decide if I should go rescue Mazzy and fight the Shadow Dragon before or after. A part of me actually thinks taking on Firkraag first might result in an easier Shadow Dragon encounter since I'd have the Carsomyr to help out. *ponders*

    Fortunately due to my warrior rebalancing modifications Minsc and my Paladin both have about 3 APR, which means that our offense should be pretty good. I'm just worried about our defense (AC is good, but Minsc has less than 100 HP because in my game we get average HP instead of max HP/level), so I have to be careful. I might have some of my party drink some potions of Fortitude (that would really, really help Jan, Aerie, and Viconia who all have abysmal HP due to their low Con scores). Party looks like this currently.

    Gaela (Cavalier): 110 HP (counting buffs from helm of Balduran); AC 32 (-12 AC, due to G3 stacking revisions) as a Sword & Board (Flail of Ages+3 main, Dragon Scale Shield off-hand); Saves at +6 from items; Poison, Fear, and Charm Protection; Fire Resist 45%, Cold Resist 25%, Electric Resist 25%, Acid Resist 20%.
    Minsc (Ranger): 78 HP; AC 30 (-10, including +2 Heavy Shield); Saves at +3 from items; Charm Protection (via helm)
    Jaheira (Fighter/Druid): 79 HP; AC 28 (-8, including +2 Heavy Shield); Saves at +1 from items; Charm Protection (via Helm)
    Viconia (Cleric/Mage): 40 HP; AC 21 (-1 AC); 10 Stoneskin layers
    Jan Janson (Thief/Mage): 51 HP; AC 14 (6 AC); 10 Stoneskin layers
    Aerie (Cleric/Mage): 37 HP; AC 17 (3 AC); 10 Stoneskin layers

    Naturally Gaela is the primary tank, Minsc is the bruiser secondary tank, Jaheira is armored healer/summoner; everyone else avoids combat like it had leprosy. >.>

    BelgarathMTH
  • AshielAshiel Member Posts: 254
    Something that is a bit amazing is that even with that -12 AC (-16 vs Crushing, -15 vs Piercing, -16 vs Slashing), stuff still hits Gaela with surprising frequency, and Minsc gets thrashed in many of our scraps. 1-3 hits on any of the mages is pretty much game-over for them against any of the enemies I have to worry about (freakin' golems can 1-shot them without even critting I think :P), and I had to resurrect Janson during the Haer'Dalis quest with a Rod of Resurrection I picked up.

    One of the reasons I installed the G3 stacking mod was because I was kind of irritated by how little your armor and such means in this game. After a while everything is going to hit you 95% of the time anyway, which at that point there's no real difference between wearing leather armor and full plate. The armor stacking mods allow me to combine things like Rings/Amulets/Cloaks/Armor/Shields, which allow you to get ACs that allow you higher avoidance %s. I was surprised at how even with all this extra stacking how frequently my tanks get pummeled even pre-spellhold. :P

    BelgarathMTH
  • AshielAshiel Member Posts: 254
    Looking back on it, I don't know how I ever played this game back in the day without these modifications. I remember there was a reason I never used anything except spellcasters to tank in BG II, and now I recall why. Since the game is so anti-stacking by default you're basically auto-hit AC by most enemies in the game, so instead we rely on Stoneskin/Ironskins to get our tank on, which always rubbed me the wrong way that a wizard is a better physical tank than the guy with full plate who's packing steel. :P

    BelgarathMTH
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,399
    @Ashiel, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArmorIsUseless

    LOL. You remember Star Wars, right? Exactly why were all those stormtroopers wearing full-body white adamantium full-plate? It certainly doesn't stop blaster fire. One hit from a blaster, and they were one-shot kills.

    At least Darth Vader needs his full-plate as a life-support system. Since he could stop blaster shots with his bare hands, not to mention his lightsaber, we never know whether that life-support full-plate of his would stop a blaster shot.

    It looks like nothing stops a lightsaber hit, but another lightsaber.

    So, I have one possible answer to my own question.

    (Whenever somebody asks a loaded philosophical question, a really great response is always "How would you answer your own question?")

    Armor helps against peasants armed with farm implements. It also makes you nearly invulnerable to wild animals and partially defended against small humanoids, or really stupid monstrous humanoids.

    It is a status symbol of the government-sanctioned policeman over the general population. It can help somewhat against medium-strength martial weapons like swords and spears, wielded by medium-skill opponents, and in real life, it can even stop bullets, as long as they hit in the covered areas.

    Even in real-life history, plate mail was not able to stop crossbow bolts, although it could stop arrows that didn't hit in the necessary chinks.

    Basically, you clank around in armor because you think it makes you look bad-ass and cool, and you think it intimidates all the weak that you want to bully. Or, you buy into the whole "knight in shining armor" trope as a good defender of the weak. It won't actually do you any good as soon as you're up against, well, pretty much anything with actual power.

    "Revenge of the Nerds". We were all so jealous of all the jocks in their shining, impressive suits of armor before we knew better. And their armor and strength, "...sinew and muscle...", as Irenicus puts it, did seem mighty indeed in those days.

    But, once we face truly powerful enemies, and explore and understand what truly makes one powerful, we all who are wise, when face-to-face with an equally powerful opponent, come to understand that,

    Armor is useless.

  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 679

    Even in real-life history, plate mail was not able to stop crossbow bolts, although it could stop arrows that didn't hit in the necessary chinks.

    Testing has shown that a suit of full plate mail was extremely effective against crossbow bolts. Even under ideal conditions (very close range and a perfectly perpendicular hit) the crossbow still doesn't generally penetrate far enough for a lethal hit. And battlefield conditions are far from ideal.

    Full plate armor was very very effective on the battlefield. It was also very very expensive.

    AshielDragonspear
  • AshielAshiel Member Posts: 254
    Agreed. Which is why I do a little happy dance in my head when I manage to gnab my first suit of plate mail in BG I & II. At nearly 10,000 gp in price (with a rep of 12 and an 18 Charisma it's still something like 8,xxx+ gold pieces and some change in Baldur's Gate II.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Interesting factoid: armed man referred to a dude that had armour. Status was a big deal.

    In regards to reality, armour was outdated completely the day the first steppe dweller made a composite bow. Heck, look how well mere great bows worked at crecy and agincourt!

  • AshielAshiel Member Posts: 254
    Also on the subject of armor...armor actually has worked throughout history. Even in the Star Wars films, while the Stormtroopers were dropped by a blaster bolt it doesn't mean they were killed by one. The armor may have been the difference between a day in the infirmary and a permanent vacation. :P

    Likewise, during the North Hollywood shootout in 1997, two armed men wearing reinforced kevlar suits and packing some major firepower were able to stand off against a huge force of police that were shooting them constantly. The police simply didn't have enough firepower in their 9mm and .38 pistols to bring the criminals down. One committed suicide after suffering some damage, and the other died from blood loss after being shot in the weakest sections of his armor (around his legs) some 20+ times.

    Full plate as seen in D&D is also modeled off of armor from a time period that had firearms, and such armors were crafted with firearms in mind. A common test to ensure that the armor was bullet proof was to fire a gun at a completed suit at close range. If the armorsmith had done his job correctly, the bullet would do nothing more than leave a small dent in the armor. For this reason the dent was a mark of quality on the armor rather than a blemish, for it ensured that the armor would help prevent loss of life from gunfire. Contrary to what many assume before researching it, armor did not fall out of favor because it was useless against firearms but because of the expense of armor and changes in the way that wars were being fought.

    In D&D, armor is supposed to mean protection. At least in theory. Wearing full plate is supposed to be mechanically superior to wearing lighter armors. But do the the game's limitations in stacking (no magic rings with magic armors for example) the THAC0 of enemies drastically outpaces the benefits of armor. A THAC0 of 3 is effectively a 1d20+17 to hit. Meanwhile an AC of -5 is effectively an AC of 25 in D&D (which means that that you've got a 65% chance to hit on every attack). Since enemies in BG II at the latter stages frequently have a base THAC0 of 0 and then modifiers on top of that (from weapons, strength, or buffs), it's very easy to get a 95% hit rate on all warriors in BG I & II.

    That didn't sit right with me, which is why I installed the mod. An alternative mod was the mod that mades armor give damage resistance in the form of % reductions (similar to Shield of Faith) which would be outright superior for high-end BG II when compared with vanilla, but such mechanics do not mesh well at all with the casting system (a cleric for example relies on their armor to help keep their spells from being interrupted while casting in the thick of things, but even if you reduced incoming damage by 75% you still lose your spell).

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859

    DreadKhan said:

    DreadKhan said:

    Ashiel said:

    Keldorn and Anomen can go kiss a beholder. :D

    I͝ ͢p͡r̷otes҉t!

    *hovers away*
    Come on, keldorn is so ruggedly handsome!

    Erm, unless you're a male beholder... Wait, do you guys HAVE genders?!
    W̨e d̷o n͠ót͜ n͜eed gend͜er̡s.͝ ̨W̕e͘ ̀have͞ ̷th̸e PERFECT FORM ͘by ͠n͠atu̢re̕.̨ ̶It is̵ ben͝eat́h͢ us to ͡l̢ov́ìng͜l̛y ͡ga҉z̢e̷ at ̡an ͞i͠m͝p̢er͠f́ect͞ ̛c̶re͜atu͜re͡ s̕u͜c͞h ͡as K҉eĺdo͢rņ, wi̛th̕ hi҉s̀ pun͞y ̕t͜w̶o͏ e͞y͠es̢.
    What if he was wielding a sword with the Eye of Tyr?

    Then, you know, he'd have 3.
    We͏l͝l̛,͡ ̢i̶t ͞w̵ou͠l̕d́ ́bȩ ͡a̕ st̨ar͞ţ.͟ I ̵h͘a̡v͝e ͠to a̕sk th͡oug̡h, h̕o̴w ̕M̷A̴J̡E͝SŢIC͢ wơu҉l̸d t̛h͠i͡s ̨new eye ̨b̷e҉?̶
    Positively epic! The Great Mother is a bit jealous.

  • AshielAshiel Member Posts: 254
    Okay, well I'm heading off to fight Firkraag. Hopefully I'll be posting some screenshots soon. :)

  • AshielAshiel Member Posts: 254
    Okay. After a lot of planning I went with the following setup. Here, I've summoned a pair of fire-elementals with Jaheira (yay for druids needing little XP relatively to level up). Naturally they aren't going to hurt Firkraag very effectivly but honestly they're just there to distract him (which they did quite well).
    Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us

    Afterwards, my party buffed to the high heavens. I probably spent more gold on protection from fire scrolls than was practical (those things are really expensive Q.Q), and while I rarely use potions I had been hording a bunch of them inside my potion bag. I pulled out all I had amassed and began chugging those that would make sense. I was particularly worried about Viconia and Aerie and their paltry HP (40/37 respectively) so I had them drink a Potion of Fortitude to raise their Cons to 18, which shot their HP up to about 73 each, which ensured they at least wouldn't get 1-shot by the dragon's physical attacks). Unfortunately Jan sucks at setting traps right now (I just didn't put points into it and focused on pick pockets and such instead) so that was a no go. Minsc and my Bhaalspawn downed a potion of Frost Giant Strength (Str 21) and Mind Focusing (+3 Int/+3 Dex for 12 hours), and Resist Fear, Protection from Evil, and some immunity to poison later and...

    My Paladin boldly steps up to issue the challenge.
    Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.usFree Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us

    All in all I think he took the challenge rather well...
    Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us

    During the battle I had all my casters threw out some Lower Resistance spells, Doom, and Greater Malison. I moved in my fire elementals and had Aerie through down some monsters with a Wand of Monster Summoning to distract him while I healed up my Paladin who was somewhere around 30% life after duking it out. Thank god for the summons because Firkraag hasted himself and poor Jan got silenced (darn, he didn't know Vocalize :P) and that was very bad for my Paladin. While my Paladin was getting healed by Cure Serious Wounds scrolls by Aerie, I had her activate her Bhaalspawn power Draw Upon Holy Might (which was much stronger than her CL 2 version from being a Paladin). Her stats looked like this afterwards.
    Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us

    The battle raged on and I had to gulp down quite a few potions of Extra Healing. I'm 100% certain I would have died if not for the Boots of Speed from Haer'Dalis' quest line, because I needed to run away really, really fast several times. I kept most of the other party members out of the way. For some reason I decided to have Minsc summon Bootlets (from Minsc's Unfinished Business quest) in hopes that the dragon would waste some time eating the rodent. :P

    Jaheira pounded Firkraag with a Wand of the Heavens and unfortunately it's 100% fire damage in Baldur's Gate (instead of 1/2 fire, 1/2 divine) so that was a waste of an action and a charge. After that she returned to pelting it with +2 bullets and throwing out the occasional insect plague or something. I'm still amazed at how much damage that dragon deals per hit (he smacked my Paladin, non-crit, for 33 damage with a single blow, which is like 1/3 of my Paladin's non-super-buffed HP, counting the HP bonus from the Helm of Balduran). Aerie and Jan threw Magic Missiles and Wand of Frost.

    At the very end I saw he was "Near Death" and I decided to bite the bullet and go for the kill. At 23/137 HP, I had my Paladin rush the dragon for a last ditch gambit and try to bring him down. I managed to get the last hit in with the Flail of Ages+3 and scored Firkraag as most powerful foe killed on her information sheet and a tidy 64,000 XP (a little disappointing given that average quest experience is so much more than that for my party). Oh well, to the victor go the spoils...
    Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.usFree Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.usimage

    DrugarMoomintroll
  • AshielAshiel Member Posts: 254
    PS - Wanted to thank everyone for the great advice. :D

  • SapphireIce101SapphireIce101 Member Posts: 866
    The most awkward thing that has ever happened to me is also quite disturbing.

    Khalid got turned into a Lightning Kebob by the guy at the bottom of the Cloakwood mine, then the CHARNAME floods the mines. ....Then, you find a cut into Khalid in Irenicus' Dungeon. I feel bad for Imoen, she saw Irenicus cut into a waterbloated, and lightning fried Khalid.

    However, @Ashiel, you seem to be having some pretty interesting things going on there. lol

    Ashiel
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    DreadKhan said:

    DreadKhan said:

    DreadKhan said:

    Ashiel said:

    Keldorn and Anomen can go kiss a beholder. :D

    I͝ ͢p͡r̷otes҉t!

    *hovers away*
    Come on, keldorn is so ruggedly handsome!

    Erm, unless you're a male beholder... Wait, do you guys HAVE genders?!
    W̨e d̷o n͠ót͜ n͜eed gend͜er̡s.͝ ̨W̕e͘ ̀have͞ ̷th̸e PERFECT FORM ͘by ͠n͠atu̢re̕.̨ ̶It is̵ ben͝eat́h͢ us to ͡l̢ov́ìng͜l̛y ͡ga҉z̢e̷ at ̡an ͞i͠m͝p̢er͠f́ect͞ ̛c̶re͜atu͜re͡ s̕u͜c͞h ͡as K҉eĺdo͢rņ, wi̛th̕ hi҉s̀ pun͞y ̕t͜w̶o͏ e͞y͠es̢.
    What if he was wielding a sword with the Eye of Tyr?

    Then, you know, he'd have 3.
    We͏l͝l̛,͡ ̢i̶t ͞w̵ou͠l̕d́ ́bȩ ͡a̕ st̨ar͞ţ.͟ I ̵h͘a̡v͝e ͠to a̕sk th͡oug̡h, h̕o̴w ̕M̷A̴J̡E͝SŢIC͢ wơu҉l̸d t̛h͠i͡s ̨new eye ̨b̷e҉?̶
    Positively epic! The Great Mother is a bit jealous.

    I͢ w̡ill con҉s͡i͏d̴er K̵e͠l̷dor̀n ̀as͞ ͠a҉ ͘p͠oţe͏n͝t̨ia͜l͟ ̛ṕet ̧for ̸ḿy f͟a̕m̵i̧lia̢r t̕h̕en͞.̧ ̡B̸ut͘ ̕An͡om͡en̸, n͡o way!͠

    MalicronMoomintroll
  • AshielAshiel Member Posts: 254

    The most awkward thing that has ever happened to me is also quite disturbing.

    Khalid got turned into a Lightning Kebob by the guy at the bottom of the Cloakwood mine, then the CHARNAME floods the mines. ....Then, you find a cut into Khalid in Irenicus' Dungeon. I feel bad for Imoen, she saw Irenicus cut into a waterbloated, and lightning fried Khalid.

    However, @Ashiel, you seem to be having some pretty interesting things going on there. lol

    Oh wow. That must have looked really nasty. No wonder dear Imoen is cracked in the head. Pickled men in glass jars and Sponge-Bob-Khalid-pants. Enough to make a mind-flayer into a vegan that. :P

    Oh, and by pretty interesting, did you by chance mean the playthrough or the rule modifications? :P

  • MalicronMalicron Member Posts: 629
    @SapphireIce101
    I'll add it to the (ever growing) list of reasons I really, REALLY enjoy killing Irenicus.

  • AshielAshiel Member Posts: 254
    Malicron said:

    @SapphireIce101
    I'll add it to the (ever growing) list of reasons I really, REALLY enjoy killing Irenicus.

    I have one extremely good reason for wanting to kill him. He's a dirty cheater. >:(

    I decided to just for poops and giggles attempt to take him on without getting the help of all the other mages in Spellhold. What do I get for attempting to get an encounter that was even harder? A cutscene death. The game pauses, and you die. Railroaded right off a cliff. I think that's my least favorite thing about BG II compared to BG I. In BG I, I can't recall any - if any exist - moments where I felt railroaded into doing something a particular way. With the exception of death of Gorion, very little seemed to be coded in such a way that you could do nothing. They even had Biff the Understudy (a truly awesome NPC I might add for both practicality and humor) to fill in for plot-related NPCs whom you killed anyway.

    Meanwhile fast forward to BG II, and you literally can't lift a finger against the shadow thieves because that damn invisible ninja guy comes out of no-where and kills you instantly. The guy who - also - cannot be killed with damage. The only way I know to kill him (and believe me, I'm going to out of spite) is to polymorph into a mind flayer and Int drain him to death during a time-stop. And woe, woe I say unto he, when my party is capable of such, I'm going to save my game and there is going to be a great wailing throughout the thieves' guild as I wreak horrible vengeance for having my rights as a gamer stripped from me. >:)

    Malicron
  • SapphireIce101SapphireIce101 Member Posts: 866
    edited June 2013
    @Malicron - I've never had it happen again, but for that playthrough I was like..."Oh dear...Imoen gets to see something -really- horrible." Lets just say that, I think that Charname had more reason to kill Irenicus though. XD

    @Ashiel - Yup! Like, Viconia's magic resistance kicking in. Then, for some people that romance Anomen, his flower conversation comes up in random places that it really shouldn't show up. XD

    Malicron
  • AshielAshiel Member Posts: 254
    Very cool. Also, Sapphire, I absolutely love your avatar picture. Any chance I could get the source from you? :)

  • SapphireIce101SapphireIce101 Member Posts: 866
    @Ashiel - I'll have to ask my boyfriend where he found it at. Since he was the one that found it, and I used it for my IWD1 Minimal Reload Challenge.

    Awkward thing about that one, Korin trying to romance Arianna while her husband, Vindictus, was right there. I can totally imagine the death glare that says 'Get the hell away from my wife.'. I swear all I was doing was talking to Korin, and be friendly with him, not try to romance him!

    Also, for people who don't know, Korin is part of the IWD NPC Project made by the awesome @kulyok. Its part of my must have mods for IWD.

  • ambrennanambrennan Member Posts: 173
    edited June 2013
    In BG I, I can't recall any - if any exist - moments where I felt railroaded into doing something a particular way
    Managed to kill Gorion in Candlekeep? You die, game over. Managed to kill Baeloth outside the arena? You die, game over. Tried resisting arrest in Candlekeep? You die, game over. Confronted Sarevok without the evidence? You die, game over. At least BG2 spawns a very nearly invincible enemy to do the job rather than Charname just dying out of the blue.

    Try hiking west from FAI? You hit an invisible wall until you learn that that bandit mine is located in the Coakwood Forest.

    Post edited by ambrennan on
  • AshielAshiel Member Posts: 254
    Oh yeah. I guess I forgot about the cloakwood stuff since I've been playing BG I using the G3 mods that open all but the hidden mines/camp up. Hm, perhaps it just wasn't as noticeable in BG I for me; or perhaps it was overshadowed by the feeling of freedom you get in BG I due to other reasons (contrast to BG II where exploration is basically not done at all).

    Thanks for pointing those out though Ambrennan. :D

  • VishnuVishnu Member Posts: 66
    Jarrakul said:

    Yeah, the parallels to KKK-style lynching are hard to ignore. Viconia isn't the nicest person around, but she's not hurting anyone. She just wants to be left alone. But she has black skin, so people want to kill her. Makes sense that those people would be evil. Makes less sense that Keldorn gets to keep his powers if he does it himself.

    The drow hate is based on what exactly, the skin colour or the fact that you know, Drow society is quite nasty and they are enemies to pretty much everyone else out there...and they are proud of it?

  • MalicronMalicron Member Posts: 629
    Vishnu said:

    Jarrakul said:

    Yeah, the parallels to KKK-style lynching are hard to ignore. Viconia isn't the nicest person around, but she's not hurting anyone. She just wants to be left alone. But she has black skin, so people want to kill her. Makes sense that those people would be evil. Makes less sense that Keldorn gets to keep his powers if he does it himself.

    The drow hate is based on what exactly, the skin colour or the fact that you know, Drow society is quite nasty and they are enemies to pretty much everyone else out there...and they are proud of it?

    There's also the fact that by the time Keldorn snaps and trys to kill Vicky, she's most likely proven that she is quite evil (or at least acts like she is). So it's unsurprising that he doesn't fall for killing her. Actually, in p&p, he'd have fallen before hand for traveling with her; killing her might be the act that gets him his powers back.

    KidCarnival
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,823
    edited June 2013
    DreadKhan said:

    Interesting factoid: armed man referred to a dude that had armour. Status was a big deal.

    In regards to reality, armour was outdated completely the day the first steppe dweller made a composite bow. Heck, look how well mere great bows worked at crecy and agincourt!

    @Dreadkhan

    The reason great bows worked at Agincourt is not because they could penetrate the french nobles full plate armor with them. On battlefield dectectives a few years back they did their best to test whether or not the armor could be pierced with teh arrowheads that the english were most likely using during that time period for their Archers.

    The problem was that the full plate armor used by the French Nobles was:
    A. Extremely Expensive
    B. Extremely Heavy
    C. Plays into B. as the battle appears to have taken place when the battlefield was quite muddy (and that was BEFORE all the blood started to spill)

    A. is important factoid #1, sure it could withstand it, but out of the estimated 5000 or so french cavalry that charged up the hill, they estimated MAYBE 300 could have actually afforded a suit of full plate.

    That still leaves roughly 4700 buddies (Not including horses) that were falling around you from arrows, etc (Or if you're the super unlucky one that gets random arrow #986 in barely open spot abc.)

    I don't remember how fast exactly English Longbowmen Rate of Fire was, but I do remember that it was an estimated like 25000 arrows fired in the first 5 minutes. Chinks in armor will be found, and people without full plate will prolly fall.

    So amiss the chaos of the battle, watching your fellow shoulders drop left and right, on top of horses, with the ground growing muddier by the moment due to bloodshed, now your horse falls. You're stuck by fallen companions on either side, wearing a heavy *** suit of armor, in the mud, as the sky is literally darkened with more arrows.

    TL;DR: Yes the Longbow was helpful towards Agincourt, but not for the manner in which you suggest.

    Edit: Also I disagreed with the Battlefield Detectives final assessment of the English Longbow at Agincourt since they claimed that it did not play a big role at all. My argument, as you can see above, is that it did play a pivotal role, however it was more indirect than most people claim it to be.

    Malicron
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,471
    Jarrakul said:

    Yeah, the parallels to KKK-style lynching are hard to ignore. Viconia isn't the nicest person around, but she's not hurting anyone. She just wants to be left alone. But she has black skin, so people want to kill her. Makes sense that those people would be evil. Makes less sense that Keldorn gets to keep his powers if he does it himself.

    Ashiel said:


    Of course, I've always been a little skeptical of Viconia's evil. Don't get me wrong, she has a chip on her shoulder and an obvious lack of empathy for others, but she's about as close to be neutral as you could get while still being evil I think (she makes no attempts at harming others, shows more self control than most of the "good" guys, and Minsc and Boo like her - so she can't be all bad! :P).

    These are points that I've always argued myself.

    Viconia barely seems "evil" at all in BG1. In fact, she turned her back on her genuinely evil drow brethren, and lost everything as a result - hardly the actions of an "evil" character as described in the game manual, who typically put their own stature and profit above all else. When you first meet Viconia, she's being chased by a Flaming Fist guard, who simply assumes she must be a murderer because of the color of her skin. During conflicts with Kivan, it's Kivan who instigates the tension and generally acts like a jerk, while Viconia tries to talk sense into him. When Viconia dies, Kivan declares that she should "burn in hell!," whereas when Kivan dies, Viconia simply says, "Kivan and I never really understood each other." All in all, Viconia comes off like a sympathetic, persecuted character in BG1.

    I think the makers of BG1 realized that Viconia didn't come off as genuinely evil in BG1, and they tried to make her demeanor more "sinister" in BG2. Even then, her "evil" behavior seems mostly superficial. And like Kivan, Keldorn comes off like an ignorant, racist jerk when he harasses her.

    I think the makers of BG screwed up by not making Viconia a neutral character.

    Malicron
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859

    DreadKhan said:

    Interesting factoid: armed man referred to a dude that had armour. Status was a big deal.

    In regards to reality, armour was outdated completely the day the first steppe dweller made a composite bow. Heck, look how well mere great bows worked at crecy and agincourt!

    @Dreadkhan

    The reason great bows worked at Agincourt is not because they could penetrate the french nobles full plate armor with them. On battlefield dectectives a few years back they did their best to test whether or not the armor could be pierced with teh arrowheads that the english were most likely using during that time period for their Archers.

    The problem was that the full plate armor used by the French Nobles was:
    A. Extremely Expensive
    B. Extremely Heavy
    C. Plays into B. as the battle appears to have taken place when the battlefield was quite muddy (and that was BEFORE all the blood started to spill)

    A. is important factoid #1, sure it could withstand it, but out of the estimated 5000 or so french cavalry that charged up the hill, they estimated MAYBE 300 could have actually afforded a suit of full plate.

    That still leaves roughly 4700 buddies (Not including horses) that were falling around you from arrows, etc (Or if you're the super unlucky one that gets random arrow #986 in barely open spot abc.)

    I don't remember how fast exactly English Longbowmen Rate of Fire was, but I do remember that it was an estimated like 25000 arrows fired in the first 5 minutes. Chinks in armor will be found, and people without full plate will prolly fall.

    So amiss the chaos of the battle, watching your fellow shoulders drop left and right, on top of horses, with the ground growing muddier by the moment due to bloodshed, now your horse falls. You're stuck by fallen companions on either side, wearing a heavy *** suit of armor, in the mud, as the sky is literally darkened with more arrows.

    TL;DR: Yes the Longbow was helpful towards Agincourt, but not for the manner in which you suggest.

    Edit: Also I disagreed with the Battlefield Detectives final assessment of the English Longbow at Agincourt since they claimed that it did not play a big role at all. My argument, as you can see above, is that it did play a pivotal role, however it was more indirect than most people claim it to be.
    Yeah, revisionism is a terrible thing. For one thing, what DnD calls full plate is actually post medieval.

    Interesting factoid: lots of 'lighter armour' was actually much more awkward than plate, as weight distributution is very good with a breastplate that is strapped on properly. Chainmail, scale mail and even banded or splint (neither was very common in dark ages and later) were draped, not strapped generally, making them very awkward and heavy in comparison. So despite the literal weight of the armour in question, it is easier to wear plate vs chainmail.

    Armour was brutally expensive, but due to the feudal system, many knights went into hawk to own armour, a horse and a reliable weapon, as they were legally required by feudal obligation to provide military service and or men at arms (trained men with armour). It didn't matter if you could afford the armour, you found a way to get it. This was why many Jewish bankers in Europe were missing a hand, as many knights not interested in paying just accused them of being thiefs due to usury laws. And, you know, chopped off a hand.

    The key to making military use of the great bow, it was key to just shoot heaps of arrows at a high angle, so they hit at an angle. Steppe composite bows were vastly better, shooting arrows harder and more accurately... And could be used from horseback. Best weapon until quick loading rifles.

    Note, the French also had their knighthood routed at crecy, meaning this wasn't a 1 off caused by some rain.

  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,823
    DreadKhan said:

    DreadKhan said:

    Interesting factoid: armed man referred to a dude that had armour. Status was a big deal.

    In regards to reality, armour was outdated completely the day the first steppe dweller made a composite bow. Heck, look how well mere great bows worked at crecy and agincourt!

    @Dreadkhan

    The reason great bows worked at Agincourt is not because they could penetrate the french nobles full plate armor with them. On battlefield dectectives a few years back they did their best to test whether or not the armor could be pierced with teh arrowheads that the english were most likely using during that time period for their Archers.

    The problem was that the full plate armor used by the French Nobles was:
    A. Extremely Expensive
    B. Extremely Heavy
    C. Plays into B. as the battle appears to have taken place when the battlefield was quite muddy (and that was BEFORE all the blood started to spill)

    A. is important factoid #1, sure it could withstand it, but out of the estimated 5000 or so french cavalry that charged up the hill, they estimated MAYBE 300 could have actually afforded a suit of full plate.

    That still leaves roughly 4700 buddies (Not including horses) that were falling around you from arrows, etc (Or if you're the super unlucky one that gets random arrow #986 in barely open spot abc.)

    I don't remember how fast exactly English Longbowmen Rate of Fire was, but I do remember that it was an estimated like 25000 arrows fired in the first 5 minutes. Chinks in armor will be found, and people without full plate will prolly fall.

    So amiss the chaos of the battle, watching your fellow shoulders drop left and right, on top of horses, with the ground growing muddier by the moment due to bloodshed, now your horse falls. You're stuck by fallen companions on either side, wearing a heavy *** suit of armor, in the mud, as the sky is literally darkened with more arrows.

    TL;DR: Yes the Longbow was helpful towards Agincourt, but not for the manner in which you suggest.

    Edit: Also I disagreed with the Battlefield Detectives final assessment of the English Longbow at Agincourt since they claimed that it did not play a big role at all. My argument, as you can see above, is that it did play a pivotal role, however it was more indirect than most people claim it to be.
    Yeah, revisionism is a terrible thing. For one thing, what DnD calls full plate is actually post medieval.

    Interesting factoid: lots of 'lighter armour' was actually much more awkward than plate, as weight distributution is very good with a breastplate that is strapped on properly. Chainmail, scale mail and even banded or splint (neither was very common in dark ages and later) were draped, not strapped generally, making them very awkward and heavy in comparison. So despite the literal weight of the armour in question, it is easier to wear plate vs chainmail.

    Armour was brutally expensive, but due to the feudal system, many knights went into hawk to own armour, a horse and a reliable weapon, as they were legally required by feudal obligation to provide military service and or men at arms (trained men with armour). It didn't matter if you could afford the armour, you found a way to get it. This was why many Jewish bankers in Europe were missing a hand, as many knights not interested in paying just accused them of being thiefs due to usury laws. And, you know, chopped off a hand.

    The key to making military use of the great bow, it was key to just shoot heaps of arrows at a high angle, so they hit at an angle. Steppe composite bows were vastly better, shooting arrows harder and more accurately... And could be used from horseback. Best weapon until quick loading rifles.

    Note, the French also had their knighthood routed at crecy, meaning this wasn't a 1 off caused by some rain.
    Yes and the English Longbow was very good at that exact purpose, a high rate of fire to literally rain down arrows. As I said, if you fire enough arrows into a confined area (especially at Agincourt where they were flanked pretty much on either side) then damage WILL be done. Its just a numbers game at that point.

    And yes the French knighthood was routed simply because the English weren't willing (or really able) to fight the battle the French were willing (and prepared) to fight.



    ON TOPIC: (Apologizes my historian gets worked up about subjects like that)

    I've never seen an event (primarily because I A. haven't used Viconia much and B. she isn't a LI for a female PC) where Viconia acts full out evil, to the point that Keldorn is justified in what he does to her in the future. That said, its because Keldorn does have that flaw, that makes him a good NPC. Between his wife and Viconia, he is a paladin who's TRYING to follow his code and having it regularly tested.

    I actually look forward to trying a redemption paladin one day myself that tries to bring Viconia to the 'Good' side, but unfortunately I think you have to romance her for that. =/

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