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Restore Charm Spell durations

elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,771
edited June 2013 in Feature Requests
I know you are busy with larger issues at the moment, but I recently realised these changes (that have happened over time) and I would appreciate if you would changing the durations for charm person, charm person or mammal, and dire charm back to what they were in Baldur's Gate 1 (changed for both BGEE and BG2EE).

Since Baldur's Gate was released the mage level 1 charm person spell has had its duration reduced to only 5 rounds, down from what it was originally in Baldur's Gate 1 (100 seconds or roughly 17 rounds).

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The 2nd level druid spell charm person or mammal was listed in game in BG1 as lasting 20 rounds (I've actually just tested it and thats how long it lasted). According to Near Infinity in BGEE it now lasts 10 rounds instead.

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While the Near Infinity description in BGEE states that the third level spell Dire Charm lasts 2 turns (20 rounds), it actually only lasts 5 rounds. In BG1 it originally lasted 20 rounds.

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Mortianna

Comments

  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    It would be fine if the pc's were the only ones who could cast it.
    The problem occurs when you've finished a fight but have to sit around for about 60secs afterwards being unable to save or explore while you wait for the effect to wear off.

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,357
    Yeah, this was a design choice when BGEE went with the BG2 spell system and their reduced charm durations.

  • Draith012Draith012 Member Posts: 174
    Yeah, it was real annoying when you come across those sirens along the western maps as they cast improve invis and dire charm. Then the long wait of having to run around so your own party member would not hit you.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,771
    Draith012 said:

    Yeah, it was real annoying when you come across those sirens along the western maps as they cast improve invis and dire charm. Then the long wait of having to run around so your own party member would not hit you.

    You only encounter them in 2 areas (lighthouse map and north map on werewolfs island) in BGEE. Why not nerf basilisks or wyvern poison? When you reduce a spell to a quarter of its original length it takes away a huge amount of its usability throughout the entire game.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,438
    elminster said:

    Draith012 said:

    Yeah, it was real annoying when you come across those sirens along the western maps as they cast improve invis and dire charm. Then the long wait of having to run around so your own party member would not hit you.

    You only encounter them in 2 areas (lighthouse map and north map on werewolfs island) in BGEE. Why not nerf basilisks or wyvern poison? When you reduce a spell to a quarter of its original length it takes away a huge amount of its usability throughout the entire game.
    The issue is more that with Flesh to Stone, the effect is immediate; Wyvern poison is deadly unless you have an antidote. Charm doesn't kill you, but it does force you to wait until its effect ends before you can continue the game. If that duration is longer than a few rounds after combat, that's too much time to make the player wait.

  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,355
    @Dee Couldn't a separate charm spell be created for the Sirens with a shorter duration, instead of nerfing the duration of the druid and mage charm spells?

    Ideally, the charm would wear off once the Sirens die, but that doesn't seem like it would be easy to code.

    elminster
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,771
    edited June 2013
    Dee said:

    elminster said:

    Draith012 said:

    Yeah, it was real annoying when you come across those sirens along the western maps as they cast improve invis and dire charm. Then the long wait of having to run around so your own party member would not hit you.

    You only encounter them in 2 areas (lighthouse map and north map on werewolfs island) in BGEE. Why not nerf basilisks or wyvern poison? When you reduce a spell to a quarter of its original length it takes away a huge amount of its usability throughout the entire game.
    The issue is more that with Flesh to Stone, the effect is immediate; Wyvern poison is deadly unless you have an antidote. Charm doesn't kill you, but it does force you to wait until its effect ends before you can continue the game. If that duration is longer than a few rounds after combat, that's too much time to make the player wait.
    Right but having an NPC turned to stone is just as annoying. Means you either have to reload or deal with no longer having their equipment/the NPC. Since there is no revive in the game death by wyvern poison means you have to either reload, accept their loss, or lug your character's equipment all the way to the nearest priest (hopefully without running to any other wyverns). Two of those options are time consuming as well.

    Besides which, don't Sirines already have "Ghoul hands" (causes confusion or feeblemindedness)? If successful (no saving penalties/bonuses for either effect) that lasts for 150 seconds. Plus Bassilus casts rigid thinking, which lasts a turn itself. So its not as if they are alone in having long durations for similar spell effects (both can cause a party member to attack another). Its one thing to reduce sirines to having it last a turn or half a turn, its another thing to three charm spells because of one enemy.

    Especially since unlike in the case of places you find Bassilisks and Wyverns both areas you find sirines in are optional, you can sneak past the sirines if you want (once you learn of their charm ability you could probably cripple their spell casting with glitterdust - which you can get in beregost- and then kill them from a distance) and outside of random exploring the only way you come across either is if you accept the quest for them (you get a quest to kill the sirines in the City of Baldur's Gate).

    Mortianna
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,612
    Shouldn't Charm wear off instantly if the caster is no longer around to give commands (ie. your other party members kill the caster)? It's not like poison, really, but rather suggestions and commands... isn't it? And if the caster isn't alive to give those commands... ?:/

    As for basilisks, Stone to Flesh scrolls are great! :) Buy a few then tell Khalid to tackle them lizards. :p

    elminster
  • Draith012Draith012 Member Posts: 174
    edited June 2013
    None of those affects last nearly as long as dire charm. And it isn't a matter that the sirens can be overpowered or resolved with less difficulty, the matter is that if a player is dire charm, he's waiting for over 5 or more minutes. There's absolutely no need for it.

    And sorry if you find death inconveniencing. Don't think there's going to be an easy solution to make it easier for you other than what you already are doing: reloading. Death is hardly a consequence for you.

    Plus as typo says, stone to flesh scrolls solves your whole basilisk problem, not to mention summoning undead as tanks are ideal as well. So playable solutions are everywhere but the underline issue is when it happens, not if.

    Just FYI: rounds and turns are hugely different time span in this game.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,771
    Draith012 said:

    None of those affects last nearly as long as dire charm. And it isn't a matter that the sirens can be overpowered or resolved with less difficulty, the matter is that if a player is dire charm, he's waiting for over 5 or more minutes. There's absolutely no need for it.

    And sorry if you find death inconveniencing. Don't think there's going to be an easy solution to make it easier for you other than what you already are doing: reloading. Death is hardly a consequence for you.

    Plus as typo says, stone to flesh scrolls solves your whole basilisk problem, not to mention summoning undead as tanks are ideal as well. So playable solutions are everywhere but the underline issue is when it happens, not if.

    Just FYI: rounds and turns are hugely different time span in this game.

    If "he's" waiting 5 or more minutes its because he's pausing a lot, as 2 turns is 120 seconds (or 20 rounds). As I already pointed out, the sirines own other attacks (which made it into BGEE and also cause your party members to attack you) last 150 seconds (or 2.5 turns).

    When it happens is later into the game (as the quests to attack sirines are granted later in the game), or earlier if you take the risk. Likewise if you take the risk of running into Ulcaster, running into the vampiric wolves east of the Temple, or going into the area east of the Temple (where whether you know it or not you will run into basilisks) you are taking a risk by getting involved in an encounter that may be difficult for a lower level character. That's fine as risks are part of any game. However, that still doesn't justify not only the huge reduction in the time that dire charm lasts but that all three charm spells have had their times significantly reduced.

    However, the area I was more referring to when it came to basilisks is under candlekeep, where if you didn't take a stone to flesh scroll and you do happen to have a party member hit by a basilisk you will have to reload or accept the loss of your party member and their equipment. You can't return there later. This is just as much of an inconvenience as having to reload because the sirines charm hit your party member.

    As you yourself have stated playable solutions are everywhere. To stop the sirines you could hit them with Glitterdust, available in Beregost from the start. This makes them blind and used cautiously you can kill them all with ranged weapons and not have to worry about being dire charmed. Likewise, once you have a cleric and level 3 spells you could even use your own solution as skeletal warriors (and all undead for that matter) are immune to charm.

  • FlashheartFlashheart Member Posts: 125
    edited June 2013
    I must admit that imho the long duration charm should be reinstated.

    Having to deal with a charmed party member for an extended duration is 'all the fun of the fair'. Personally I 'blind' that member, so that they don't attack any party members. I guess one could also use Dispel Magic...or using the 'prevention is better than a cure method' of using your Elvish party members to soak up the charms.

    I don't agree with changing something because it's inconvenient (in this case, thinking harder whilst the charm is in effect)...seems a lot like pandering to the lowest common denominator. The Kobolds in the Nashkel mines are annoying and they cost me time (they aren't hard to kill) - would the next step be to remove all 'time consuming enemies'...because...well they're annoying.

    Post edited by Flashheart on
    elminsterMortianna
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 672
    Personally I prefer the shorter duration of charm spells.

    AedanGodKaiserHell
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,362
    I think the charm effects should be revised first. Charm person allows you to take control of the target completely, you can even have the victim cast spells. There is no difference between charm and domination spells, only the saving throw and duration differ.

    What I think should be:

    Charm person/charm mammal:the victim is charmed and becomes green circled, but you can't control him perfectly. He just stays there and adores you as his new friend, however he does not turn hostile and attack his former comrades, the effect is just not that powerful. You can persuade him to walk to some place. He can cast healing of protection spells on you but he won't cast offensive spells or attack his comrades:doing so will automaticaly break the charm. Edample of a charmed victim that is forced to attack his old allies:'What am I doing they were..are my friends too! Ohh!' (Snaps out of the weak charm) 'You WILL pay for this!'

    Dire charm:The victim goes berserk and automaticaly turns on his former comrades and attacks them viciously. You don't control him he becomes like a berserk (without the bonuses) but only attacks your foes. A spellcaster won't be able to cast spells, his mind is clouded by the powerful enchantment and he only wishes to kill your foes with the most basic instincts:Hulk smash mode. If you hurt him in any way the dire charm will be broken. 'Grrrr you attack my new bestest friend, you die, YOU DIE! (Foams from the mouth)'

    Dominate/Mind control:Total and unrestricted control on the subject. The control is perfect and unbreakable. You can make the victim do anything you want, inlcuding attacking his old comrades, healing/buffing you, or doing suicide with his own spells. The domination effect won't be broken if you hurt them too. '...' (Silent, total puppet to your will)

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,771
    edited July 2013
    lunar said:

    I think the charm effects should be revised first. Charm person allows you to take control of the target completely, you can even have the victim cast spells. There is no difference between charm and domination spells, only the saving throw and duration differ.

    What I think should be:

    Charm person/charm mammal:the victim is charmed and becomes green circled, but you can't control him perfectly. He just stays there and adores you as his new friend, however he does not turn hostile and attack his former comrades, the effect is just not that powerful. You can persuade him to walk to some place. He can cast healing of protection spells on you but he won't cast offensive spells or attack his comrades:doing so will automaticaly break the charm. Edample of a charmed victim that is forced to attack his old allies:'What am I doing they were..are my friends too! Ohh!' (Snaps out of the weak charm) 'You WILL pay for this!'

    Dire charm:The victim goes berserk and automaticaly turns on his former comrades and attacks them viciously. You don't control him he becomes like a berserk (without the bonuses) but only attacks your foes. A spellcaster won't be able to cast spells, his mind is clouded by the powerful enchantment and he only wishes to kill your foes with the most basic instincts:Hulk smash mode. If you hurt him in any way the dire charm will be broken. 'Grrrr you attack my new bestest friend, you die, YOU DIE! (Foams from the mouth)'

    Dominate/Mind control:Total and unrestricted control on the subject. The control is perfect and unbreakable. You can make the victim do anything you want, inlcuding attacking his old comrades, healing/buffing you, or doing suicide with his own spells. The domination effect won't be broken if you hurt them too. '...' (Silent, total puppet to your will)

    Its certainly an interesting suggestion. I just don't know how many people are going to be all that interested in bothering with the spells given that you could instead just be outright killing these enemies. I guess using charm person would be fine for non-hostile NPC's, I just don't see given the +3 saving throw it having much value. Also the benefit of domination is (beyond its saving throw) unlike charm person or charm mammal it works on a lot more creatures.

    lunar
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,362
    elminster said:

    lunar said:

    I think the charm effects should be revised first. Charm person allows you to take control of the target completely, you can even have the victim cast spells. There is no difference between charm and domination spells, only the saving throw and duration differ.

    What I think should be:

    Charm person/charm mammal:the victim is charmed and becomes green circled, but you can't control him perfectly. He just stays there and adores you as his new friend, however he does not turn hostile and attack his former comrades, the effect is just not that powerful. You can persuade him to walk to some place. He can cast healing of protection spells on you but he won't cast offensive spells or attack his comrades:doing so will automaticaly break the charm. Edample of a charmed victim that is forced to attack his old allies:'What am I doing they were..are my friends too! Ohh!' (Snaps out of the weak charm) 'You WILL pay for this!'

    Dire charm:The victim goes berserk and automaticaly turns on his former comrades and attacks them viciously. You don't control him he becomes like a berserk (without the bonuses) but only attacks your foes. A spellcaster won't be able to cast spells, his mind is clouded by the powerful enchantment and he only wishes to kill your foes with the most basic instincts:Hulk smash mode. If you hurt him in any way the dire charm will be broken. 'Grrrr you attack my new bestest friend, you die, YOU DIE! (Foams from the mouth)'

    Dominate/Mind control:Total and unrestricted control on the subject. The control is perfect and unbreakable. You can make the victim do anything you want, inlcuding attacking his old comrades, healing/buffing you, or doing suicide with his own spells. The domination effect won't be broken if you hurt them too. '...' (Silent, total puppet to your will)

    Its certainly an interesting suggestion. I just don't know how many people are going to be all that interested in bothering with the spells given that you could instead just be outright killing these enemies. I guess using charm person would be fine for non-hostile NPC's, I just don't see given the +3 saving throw it having much value. Also the benefit of domination is (beyond its saving throw) unlike charm person or charm mammal it works on a lot more creatures.
    I forgot that dominate is better that you can dominate any creature, except undead. (You have control undead for that, 2 lvls higher) I wish there was a 'charm monster' spell or 'mass charm' type of spells for higher lvls. Lvl 6 and higher spell levels lack good enchantment picks.

    Still I find that charm person allows you as the player to control the enemy so perfectly as to gain access to his spells, rather wrong. Enemy AI can't use this, when they charm your party member your npc just attacks the party, he can't even change weapons to melee. So if he has a ranged weapon just sending a party member next to him will nulify their threat, as they will continously try to attack the nearest enemy with ranged weapon at-8 to hit. (Unless ofcourse the charmed party member is a super archer like Coran or has a habit of rollinf critical hits)

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,771
    edited July 2013
    lunar said:

    elminster said:

    lunar said:

    I think the charm effects should be revised first. Charm person allows you to take control of the target completely, you can even have the victim cast spells. There is no difference between charm and domination spells, only the saving throw and duration differ.

    What I think should be:

    Charm person/charm mammal:the victim is charmed and becomes green circled, but you can't control him perfectly. He just stays there and adores you as his new friend, however he does not turn hostile and attack his former comrades, the effect is just not that powerful. You can persuade him to walk to some place. He can cast healing of protection spells on you but he won't cast offensive spells or attack his comrades:doing so will automaticaly break the charm. Edample of a charmed victim that is forced to attack his old allies:'What am I doing they were..are my friends too! Ohh!' (Snaps out of the weak charm) 'You WILL pay for this!'

    Dire charm:The victim goes berserk and automaticaly turns on his former comrades and attacks them viciously. You don't control him he becomes like a berserk (without the bonuses) but only attacks your foes. A spellcaster won't be able to cast spells, his mind is clouded by the powerful enchantment and he only wishes to kill your foes with the most basic instincts:Hulk smash mode. If you hurt him in any way the dire charm will be broken. 'Grrrr you attack my new bestest friend, you die, YOU DIE! (Foams from the mouth)'

    Dominate/Mind control:Total and unrestricted control on the subject. The control is perfect and unbreakable. You can make the victim do anything you want, inlcuding attacking his old comrades, healing/buffing you, or doing suicide with his own spells. The domination effect won't be broken if you hurt them too. '...' (Silent, total puppet to your will)

    Its certainly an interesting suggestion. I just don't know how many people are going to be all that interested in bothering with the spells given that you could instead just be outright killing these enemies. I guess using charm person would be fine for non-hostile NPC's, I just don't see given the +3 saving throw it having much value. Also the benefit of domination is (beyond its saving throw) unlike charm person or charm mammal it works on a lot more creatures.
    I forgot that dominate is better that you can dominate any creature, except undead. (You have control undead for that, 2 lvls higher) I wish there was a 'charm monster' spell or 'mass charm' type of spells for higher lvls. Lvl 6 and higher spell levels lack good enchantment picks.

    Still I find that charm person allows you as the player to control the enemy so perfectly as to gain access to his spells, rather wrong. Enemy AI can't use this, when they charm your party member your npc just attacks the party, he can't even change weapons to melee. So if he has a ranged weapon just sending a party member next to him will nulify their threat, as they will continously try to attack the nearest enemy with ranged weapon at-8 to hit. (Unless ofcourse the charmed party member is a super archer like Coran or has a habit of rollinf critical hits)

    I don't know if there is anything stopping the AI from casting spells with your characters or changing weapons. I think it is just too dumb to do so :D

    lunar
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