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Should I give up and start again?

HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
Please no spoilers in your answers, but...

In my first run of BG 1 Vanilla, I accepted Xzar and Montaron into my party, but Montaron died in his first battle when I got attacked by that caster at the gates of Friendly Arm Inn.

I don't like save-loading too much in RPGs, so I accepted the loss and continued. But I am finding battles quite tricky, like a single Dread Wolf nearly killed 2 more characters, when I got a random ambush event just out of the Friend Arm, Imoen got 1-shot by a Worg before I could do anything -.-

Obviously I will restart from just before Imoen died, but should I restart altogether? Is the loss of any single NPC party member a crippling blow for the team?

Thanks

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Comments

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Generally speaking, no. There are enough NPCs in the game that you can refill your party ranks without too much trouble.

    You can also raise a dead party member at any temple. Just make sure you bring their equipment with you.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    Oh I didn't realise death was so 'temporary' in this game.

    Also... is there anything I could do to avoid 'sudden deaths' like Imoen's? I mean the Worg hit her for 16 and killed her in 1 shot... are those kind of ambushes just unlucky or can they be combated effective by a noob team?
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    Yes to both. Low level characters are fragile. As you go up levels you gain hit points. So at 3rd or 4th level you've got a lot more staying power than at 1st. You will also get more hitting power, and more spells, and more good stuff, and just generally get better in every way. But 1st level characters will always be fragile.
    Dread Wolf is bad luck at low level, they're pretty tough! And 16 points from a worg! Owww! That was a bad critical. It won't happen often.

    But that said, yes you can raise them pretty easily (visit a temple; unless they are "chunked". Basically, if their portrait still shows up in your party you can get them raised), as others mentioned, don't forget to pick up their stuff!
    Just as a matter of personal interest, I would always raise Imoen. I would not raise Monteron. And if Imoen gets chunked, I'd hit reload.
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    pick fighters for buffer and equip weaker characters with slings and bows

    this should help a little

    spells like sleep entlage and other crowd control are godsend in lower levels
    horror web
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    atcDave said:

    Yes to both. Low level characters are fragile. As you go up levels you gain hit points. So at 3rd or 4th level you've got a lot more staying power than at 1st. You will also get more hitting power, and more spells, and more good stuff, and just generally get better in every way. But 1st level characters will always be fragile.
    Dread Wolf is bad luck at low level, they're pretty tough! And 16 points from a worg! Owww! That was a bad critical. It won't happen often.

    But that said, yes you can raise them pretty easily (visit a temple; unless they are "chunked". Basically, if their portrait still shows up in your party you can get them raised), as others mentioned, don't forget to pick up their stuff!
    Just as a matter of personal interest, I would always raise Imoen. I would not raise Monteron. And if Imoen gets chunked, I'd hit reload.

    When I play RPGs, I'm a bit of an OCD explorer, and try to explore every inch of a map, find every secret, defeat every challenge, so I probably got myself into way more battles than necessary travelling from Gorion's death to Friendly Arm and back down to Beregost. If I remember correctly, the Dread Wolf was nowhere near the main road that I deviated from. lol That said, Imoen's death was totally random, I got an encounter event as soon as I left the Friendly Arm and she was dead in the first attack.

    Anyways I've since restarted just before Imoen's death and this time got to Beregost safely.

    Something I wanna know now is... Is there any way u can find out about the stats of the enemies you come across ingame? When I hover my mouse over an enemy, it just displays name, and when I right-click, there's just an audio file, which tells me nothing about how worried I should be about the encounter or how best I can defeat it. Like I had no idea how powerful a Dread Wolf was until he nearly killed my (relative) tank in one bite...





  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    Exploring is very good. Best thing you can do is check out everything, do ever adventure. Get as much experience and loot out of the game as you can! Various speed challenges and all can be fun too, but take your time on the first play through(s).

    Random encounters can be nasty. They're part of why I've never really done a "no re-load" challenge. There's just too much that can go wrong.

    As far as how tough things are, you can check the manual. I know that's not always practical, but I think its got a lot of the sort of information residents would actually have; like worgs and dire wolves are just a little tougher than regular wolves. Dread and Winter wolves are a lot tougher. And Vampiric wolves are very tough (especially if you don't have magic weapons!).
    Otherwise, its just going to be trial and error. You can turn on maximum feedback from the game play menu, and watch if a critter is absorbing some damage (and learn things like blunt weapons work better against skeletons). But trial and error will always be the best teacher.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704

    atcDave said:

    Yes to both. Low level characters are fragile. As you go up levels you gain hit points. So at 3rd or 4th level you've got a lot more staying power than at 1st. You will also get more hitting power, and more spells, and more good stuff, and just generally get better in every way. But 1st level characters will always be fragile.
    Dread Wolf is bad luck at low level, they're pretty tough! And 16 points from a worg! Owww! That was a bad critical. It won't happen often.

    But that said, yes you can raise them pretty easily (visit a temple; unless they are "chunked". Basically, if their portrait still shows up in your party you can get them raised), as others mentioned, don't forget to pick up their stuff!
    Just as a matter of personal interest, I would always raise Imoen. I would not raise Monteron. And if Imoen gets chunked, I'd hit reload.

    When I play RPGs, I'm a bit of an OCD explorer, and try to explore every inch of a map, find every secret, defeat every challenge, so I probably got myself into way more battles than necessary travelling from Gorion's death to Friendly Arm and back down to Beregost. If I remember correctly, the Dread Wolf was nowhere near the main road that I deviated from. lol That said, Imoen's death was totally random, I got an encounter event as soon as I left the Friendly Arm and she was dead in the first attack.

    Anyways I've since restarted just before Imoen's death and this time got to Beregost safely.

    Something I wanna know now is... Is there any way u can find out about the stats of the enemies you come across ingame? When I hover my mouse over an enemy, it just displays name, and when I right-click, there's just an audio file, which tells me nothing about how worried I should be about the encounter or how best I can defeat it. Like I had no idea how powerful a Dread Wolf was until he nearly killed my (relative) tank in one bite...





    You gave me an interesting idea with this, an new spell (or a rework of know alignment) could make an scan spell, which should be a single target spell that would give you a briefing of the enemy. I suggest and scroll with the name of the enemy generated in the player backpack, where we could see the stats (and maybe some lore contend) of that specific monster.

    Not for power neither will make any difference in the fights, but would be nice.

    Obs: an second idea could be to make some monsters unknow based on lore check of the highest lore party member, which would be used to check the monsters in that specific map, to detect their names (or not). Every time we re-enter that area, the lore check could be renewed.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    atcDave said:

    Exploring is very good. Best thing you can do is check out everything, do ever adventure. Get as much experience and loot out of the game as you can! Various speed challenges and all can be fun too, but take your time on the first play through(s).

    Random encounters can be nasty. They're part of why I've never really done a "no re-load" challenge. There's just too much that can go wrong.

    As far as how tough things are, you can check the manual. I know that's not always practical, but I think its got a lot of the sort of information residents would actually have; like worgs and dire wolves are just a little tougher than regular wolves. Dread and Winter wolves are a lot tougher. And Vampiric wolves are very tough (especially if you don't have magic weapons!).
    Otherwise, its just going to be trial and error. You can turn on maximum feedback from the game play menu, and watch if a critter is absorbing some damage (and learn things like blunt weapons work better against skeletons). But trial and error will always be the best teacher.

    Hmmm I'm kinda surprised that in a game as popular as BG, there is no comprehensive list of 'monsters' u can come across ingame. I'm also kinda surprised the designers didn't include some sort of ingame 'monster manual'. I've looked at the manual that came with my download from GOG, it just lists a few of the common enemies I will come across, and provides more of a fluffy description, with no stats. Like I had no idea Xvarts had bows until they shot at me, lol. The main thing it affects is my decision on spells. Given that my availability is very low at the start of the game, I don't wanna waste a spell on a battle that I can win with my swords and bows, but I also don't wanna wait until my party is crippled before I use spells against a genuinely dangerous foe.

  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    I think there are some very good resources for monster abilities on line, like at Game Banshee.

    Another good resource would be the 2E Monstrous Compendium (recently reissued by WotC).
    That will at least give a good run down of how tough everything is and what special abilities and resistances they may have.

    But it's really only a big problem right at the beginning. I would recommend a fast run to the Friendly Arms Inn after Gorion's death. Then add Khalid and Jaheira to your party, get everyone as well equipped as you can afford, and learn some good spells. At that point, you can survive what's on the road to Neshkel. By the time you hit 2nd level you are a little more capable. But until you start hitting 3rd level with your spell casters just plan on firing off most of your spells every battle, and resting a lot!
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    atcDave said:

    I think there are some very good resources for monster abilities on line, like at Game Banshee.

    Another good resource would be the 2E Monstrous Compendium (recently reissued by WotC).
    That will at least give a good run down of how tough everything is and what special abilities and resistances they may have.

    But it's really only a big problem right at the beginning. I would recommend a fast run to the Friendly Arms Inn after Gorion's death. Then add Khalid and Jaheira to your party, get everyone as well equipped as you can afford, and learn some good spells. At that point, you can survive what's on the road to Neshkel. By the time you hit 2nd level you are a little more capable. But until you start hitting 3rd level with your spell casters just plan on firing off most of your spells every battle, and resting a lot!


    Thanks so much! That monstrous compendium is really useful, I noticed it was written for AD&D, but it seems the descriptions are more or less accurate for BG (in terms of xp gain at least). I knew the BG series was based on AD&D, but I had no idea it was so faithful to the pen and paper game!

    Anyways sorry to pester u (and the wider community with so many noob questions)… I am a bit of a paradox when it comes to RPG games, in that I don’t min-max at the expense of creating an interesting story with relatable characters, and I don’t like to save-load unless absolutely necessary (I’m the type that played Diablo 3 in Hardcore Mode). However I do want to do reasonably well in the game (cos dying all the time is never fun), so the only solution I can see is to ask lots of questions here, since I got no AD&D experience and the game mechanism can be a bit bewildering and confusing.

    For example I created my Half-Elf Mage/Fighter, although I was patient enough to roll a very solid stat-line for him, I did not min-max as the guide suggested, and did not (namely maximize strength and constitution and minimize charisma and wisdom). I envisaged my character as a skillful (but not strong/tough) warrior and a naturally talented mage, but lacking experience and knowledge, so I gave him the following non optimal stat-line.

    Strength: 15
    Dexterity: 15
    Constitution: 14
    Intelligence: 18
    Wisdom: 13
    Charisma: 13

    I had assumed that I could improve those stats as I level up, but then I realized that your basic attributes more or less stay with you forever, and they determine how your character develops. So I re-rolled again with a slightly more optimized, but still not ideal setup.

    Strength: 15
    Dexterity: 17
    Constitution: 15
    Intelligence: 18
    Wisdom: 12
    Charisma: 10

    I hope this will be okay to get the job done, whilst not taking a ‘gamey’ setup with 18 for Str, Dex, Const, and Int, but 7 Wisdom and 7 Charisma.

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited June 2013
    My first whole saga playthrough was 16, 18,16, 18, 18, 13 at the end (not counting worn gear). After all possible permanent bonuses you can possibly gain were accounted for (non-evil Fighter 9>Mage).
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    Heindrich I think many of us old-time AD&D players are perfectly happy to answer questions about it! And no doubt a huge part of the appeal of BG for us is how faithful it is to the PNP game. But I'm really glad if the Monstrous Compendium helped!

    I'm glad to hear you're not min/maxing, I always like slightly irregular characters. Its much more fun to be a little less than perfect. Although, that said, don't underestimate charisma! It makes a big difference on all those business transactions you'll do throughout the game. But either set of those scores looks very doable to me.
    By the time you finish the whole game (ToB) you should gain about two points to each score. So yeah, its a lot different than other rules sets where you may add many more points.
  • EdwinEdwin Member Posts: 480
    I totally agree with Dave. Using God-like ability rolls to cheese the game shows a lack of good taste in my opinion. The NPC's offered throughout the game give a nice sampling of what is needed to make a perfectly acceptable character and, as mentioned, your NPC will have plenty of chances to add to you or your companions ability scores byh the time the sage ends.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    More or less @Edwin, the game is meant to be played until epic levels, in D&D lore rare are the people that reach epic levels. The own devs aknowledge this in Baldur's Gate as BG2 joinable NPCs have better status than BG joinable NPCs.

    If you're going to become:

    a god


    or at least have the chance, isn't a surprise that you must be an exceptional character.

    In D&D i like to make my characters powerful, i have an high degree of respect for roleplay and sometimes i dump an stat to roleplay that (actually i'm playing a barbarian with charisma 7, i already played a mage with const 6 to simulate a diseased person and to have low HP challenge for more than early levels).

    But when i want to roleplay flaws in the proper manner, i turn to RPGs that are based in this kind of roleplay, as Vampire the Masquerade/Dark Ages. D&D is meant to be a world of magic where we try our luck in adventure (normally).
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366

    atcDave said:

    I think there are some very good resources for monster abilities on line, like at Game Banshee.

    Another good resource would be the 2E Monstrous Compendium (recently reissued by WotC).
    That will at least give a good run down of how tough everything is and what special abilities and resistances they may have.

    But it's really only a big problem right at the beginning. I would recommend a fast run to the Friendly Arms Inn after Gorion's death. Then add Khalid and Jaheira to your party, get everyone as well equipped as you can afford, and learn some good spells. At that point, you can survive what's on the road to Neshkel. By the time you hit 2nd level you are a little more capable. But until you start hitting 3rd level with your spell casters just plan on firing off most of your spells every battle, and resting a lot!


    Thanks so much! That monstrous compendium is really useful, I noticed it was written for AD&D, but it seems the descriptions are more or less accurate for BG (in terms of xp gain at least). I knew the BG series was based on AD&D, but I had no idea it was so faithful to the pen and paper game!

    Anyways sorry to pester u (and the wider community with so many noob questions)… I am a bit of a paradox when it comes to RPG games, in that I don’t min-max at the expense of creating an interesting story with relatable characters, and I don’t like to save-load unless absolutely necessary (I’m the type that played Diablo 3 in Hardcore Mode). However I do want to do reasonably well in the game (cos dying all the time is never fun), so the only solution I can see is to ask lots of questions here, since I got no AD&D experience and the game mechanism can be a bit bewildering and confusing.

    For example I created my Half-Elf Mage/Fighter, although I was patient enough to roll a very solid stat-line for him, I did not min-max as the guide suggested, and did not (namely maximize strength and constitution and minimize charisma and wisdom). I envisaged my character as a skillful (but not strong/tough) warrior and a naturally talented mage, but lacking experience and knowledge, so I gave him the following non optimal stat-line.

    Strength: 15
    Dexterity: 15
    Constitution: 14
    Intelligence: 18
    Wisdom: 13
    Charisma: 13

    I had assumed that I could improve those stats as I level up, but then I realized that your basic attributes more or less stay with you forever, and they determine how your character develops. So I re-rolled again with a slightly more optimized, but still not ideal setup.

    Strength: 15
    Dexterity: 17
    Constitution: 15
    Intelligence: 18
    Wisdom: 12
    Charisma: 10

    I hope this will be okay to get the job done, whilst not taking a ‘gamey’ setup with 18 for Str, Dex, Const, and Int, but 7 Wisdom and 7 Charisma.

    this is very doable but i would suggest if you are going with fighter mage to have at least str and dex max or near max

    he is fighter so should be stronger than others
    he is mage and mages are pretty fast (not armored) guys

  • TyranusTyranus Member Posts: 268
    Don't feel bad about re-rolling. I can't count the number of parties I've created only to abandon them shortly after the FAI and retry.

    That said, Fighter/Mages have some essential stats you should go for.

    18 Str - You do a lot more damage with your weapons than spells as a Fighter/Mage, especially in the early game when that +2-6 damage is very important.

    18 Dex - You are mostly going to use spells for your defenses, and Dex bonus to AC stacks with all of those spells.

    18 Int - You obviously know why for a Mage

    15 Wis - With 3 +1 Wis tomes in the game, this will get you the 18 you'll need for the 9th level Wish spell, which will guarantee you at least one positive option each cast.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    atcDave said:

    Heindrich I think many of us old-time AD&D players are perfectly happy to answer questions about it! And no doubt a huge part of the appeal of BG for us is how faithful it is to the PNP game. But I'm really glad if the Monstrous Compendium helped!

    I'm glad to hear you're not min/maxing, I always like slightly irregular characters. Its much more fun to be a little less than perfect. Although, that said, don't underestimate charisma! It makes a big difference on all those business transactions you'll do throughout the game. But either set of those scores looks very doable to me.
    By the time you finish the whole game (ToB) you should gain about two points to each score. So yeah, its a lot different than other rules sets where you may add many more points.

    Yeah I was more used to Avernum or Diablo, where your initial stats don't matter so much, and you got a lot of freedom to select which stats to upgrade as needed. Like in Avernum.

    The AD&D system seems to have much greater variability than Diablo or Avernum, like in my first run-through, Tarnesh killed Montaron, but otherwise did not trouble my party much. On my second run, he managed to 'horror' three of my team and killed my protagonist whilst he was 'out of control'. When I reloaded just before the battle and fought him the third time, he died almost immediately to Imoen's arrows. It seems that, at least at low levels, both sides tend to miss alot, but almost any hits that land tend to be very damaging.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    Tyranus said:

    Don't feel bad about re-rolling. I can't count the number of parties I've created only to abandon them shortly after the FAI and retry.

    That said, Fighter/Mages have some essential stats you should go for.

    18 Str - You do a lot more damage with your weapons than spells as a Fighter/Mage, especially in the early game when that +2-6 damage is very important.

    18 Dex - You are mostly going to use spells for your defenses, and Dex bonus to AC stacks with all of those spells.

    18 Int - You obviously know why for a Mage

    15 Wis - With 3 +1 Wis tomes in the game, this will get you the 18 you'll need for the 9th level Wish spell, which will guarantee you at least one positive option each cast.

    I've decided to stick with my second roll for now. I will resist re-rolling again with optimised stats unless I am finding things impossibly difficult. I figure I got 5 other team members in addition to the protagonist. Surely the game is designed that you don't have to min-max to win.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    atcDave said:

    Although, that said, don't underestimate charisma! It makes a big difference on all those business transactions you'll do throughout the game.

    As I understand it, you can use any one of your team members to represent the team when it comes to buying stuff. Thus given Imoen starts off with 16, I figure a charisma of 10 will suffice for my protagonist.

    Something I am not clear about however is party reputation. My protag is Lawful Good, but I have a range of characters in the party, so how is party reputation calculated overall?

    Also although my protag is Lawful, I cannot help but want to steal things from every locked container I come across... lol Does that damage my reputation at all? In fact it's pretty weird that you can apparently pick locks or even bash them in without alerting NPCs in the same room! In Avernum you can also try to steal things, but if you do it in line of sight of any townsfolk or guards, the whole settlement turns hostile against you and your reputation takes a hit.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    If you flub a pickpocket, the target goes hostile, but no rep loss. But the whole town can end up hostile. You can get caught stealing, but not merely picking locks. Generally if anyone is in the room, be ready to hide or run if the guard is called. You get a rep hit if you get caught.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387

    atcDave said:

    Although, that said, don't underestimate charisma! It makes a big difference on all those business transactions you'll do throughout the game.

    As I understand it, you can use any one of your team members to represent the team when it comes to buying stuff. Thus given Imoen starts off with 16, I figure a charisma of 10 will suffice for my protagonist.

    Something I am not clear about however is party reputation. My protag is Lawful Good, but I have a range of characters in the party, so how is party reputation calculated overall?

    Also although my protag is Lawful, I cannot help but want to steal things from every locked container I come across... lol Does that damage my reputation at all? In fact it's pretty weird that you can apparently pick locks or even bash them in without alerting NPCs in the same room! In Avernum you can also try to steal things, but if you do it in line of sight of any townsfolk or guards, the whole settlement turns hostile against you and your reputation takes a hit.

    Yeah always select your highest charisma party member to do the talking. Store discounts are a mix of charisma and reputation. Starting reputation varies with your alignment. Recruiting certain character types generally assumed to be evil, like Half-Orcs or Drow, will lower your reputation, but otherwise that won't really play into it. Its mainly the good, and bad things you do in the game that will cause your reputation to go up or down.
    For a lawful type, I would say don't break into things, don't steal. But your sister is another story... Imoen may be more curious, nosy, light-fingered. Even if I'm playing a paladin, I'll "allow" for Imoen to run off and "investigate" certain things on her own. Keep in mind though, she is good. She probably won't burgle homes or rob stores. Although she might pick-up things left in barrels, chests and what not out in the open.
    Getting caught can still cause trouble. She (and the party) can always run. But I tend to play it safe in towns. If you ever do kill an innocent, or a guard, you will take a big reputation hit.
    There's always a chance of being noticed when you're stealing. Maybe that chance should be closer to 100% in some cases! But the only way its ever 0% is if you're alone.

    You'd also commented further up how variable things are in AD&D. That is true. To me, its part of the appeal. I've played characters with all sorts of odd attributes. I think that's fun. It actually used to be (in PNP) that you rolled scores first, then tried to fit a class. And point shifting was never 1 to 1. So you might end up with your best scores being a 16 strength and 15 intelligence. So what to do? You could play a really brainy fighter. Or a big ox of a mage. Either way could make for some really interesting role playing.
    The number of one-shot kills you see in the game will lessen as you go up levels. When everyone has more hit points two or three arrows won't seem like such a big deal. You'll also be hitting more often. It will lead to a more predictable flow of pure combat. But initiative rolls will always be a big deal. Because who gets off their spells first will determine a lot of battles. So don't be afraid to experiment with a lot of spells. Everyone finds their favorites, and they make a huge difference in battle.
  • ambrennanambrennan Member Posts: 173
    Keep in mind though, she is good. She probably won't burgle homes or rob stores.
    Ethics (I.e. lawful vs chaotic) is probably more important for that than morals.
    Even if I'm playing a paladin, I'll "allow" for Imoen to run off and "investigate" certain things on her own.
    Well, you are obviously entitled to your opinion but simply outsourcing all acts of evil sounds incompatible with ideals of a paladin to me, and having a henchman do all the stealing is, at best, loophole abuse.

    My $0.02 on character abilities: You are looking at it the wrong way - you don't have peak strength because you are a fighter but instead you chose fighter because you have peak strength (for your race; the vast majority of the population will have below average, slightly below average, average or slightly above average attributes and those people may become guards, soldiers, scholars, healers, craftsmen,etc and only those at the peak of their fields go on to become fighters, mages or rogues of legend.
    [That is a variant of the anthropic principle - given that charname's exploits are notable enough to appear in story it shouldn't surprise you that he's not an average guy with average skill]
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    I think in the AD&D system level is by far the most significant determinant of greatness. And I love the idea that the greatest fighter known might not be the strongest, or quickest, or hardiest; but rather, the most skilled. And there's so many ways of boosting those scores as needed; between potions and magic items, any intelligently played character can be great.

    Kind of a funny twist on "outsourcing evil" there. I'm pretty hard core about doing no evil. I don't play evil, and I don't ever expect Imoen to do evil either. As I said, no burglary, no violence. But she'll snoop.

    Even Robert E. Lee used spies and scouts...
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Not everyone thinks American generals are in the running for Sainthood, the way even a lvl 1 paladin is.

    Technically, your paladin is being lawful stupid if he refuses to allow scouting, ranged combat or spell casting. As for thieving, you can totally rp an NPc that decides to liberate some under utilized wealth in a nobles house, even a neutral good one on a mission from god could do this.

    I intend to run a mediocre stated fighter eventually. With that nifty belt, and the gauntlets of dex, you fix two of your key stats. Until you get the belt, potions it is.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    edited June 2013
    Well I'd never accept a paladin playing Robin Hood. But a NG... maybe. Especially in a flagrantly evil community. Agree completely about the Lawful-stupid part.

    And sorry about the RE Lee quip, I shouldn't assume folks know any history. The man hated spies of any sort, but he understood the idea of operational necessity. THAT, is the parallel. To the best of my knowledge, he did not have Lay on Hands...
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    atcDave said:

    Well I'd never accept a paladin playing Robin Hood. But a NG... maybe. Especially in a flagrantly evil community. Agree completely about the Lawful-stupid part.

    Well... there's the paladin of freedom class.

    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/house-rules/classes/paladin-of-freedom

    Also, there's the Holy Liberator official prestige class, displayed in the Complete Divine Player Handbook, that are a prestige class paladin of the specific chaotic good alignment, many times taken by chaotic good fighters or rangers and by some chaotic good clerics and even thiefs also, the very example of robin hood paladin.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    ambrennan said:


    My $0.02 on character abilities: You are looking at it the wrong way - you don't have peak strength because you are a fighter but instead you chose fighter because you have peak strength (for your race; the vast majority of the population will have below average, slightly below average, average or slightly above average attributes and those people may become guards, soldiers, scholars, healers, craftsmen,etc and only those at the peak of their fields go on to become fighters, mages or rogues of legend.
    [That is a variant of the anthropic principle - given that charname's exploits are notable enough to appear in story it shouldn't surprise you that he's not an average guy with average skill]

    I get what you are saying... but in my mind, a 'great warrior' can be great because he is the peak of physical conditioning, exceptionally strong, like a professional wrestler, or he might be exceptionally skilful, like a Shaolin Monk. Thus I deliberately accepted a non-optimal stat-line because I didn't want my character to be perfect, with the strength of a powerhouse, the speed of an assassin, the intelligence of an archmage and the wisdom of a sage.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    atcDave said:


    Getting caught can still cause trouble. She (and the party) can always run. But I tend to play it safe in towns. If you ever do kill an innocent, or a guard, you will take a big reputation hit.
    There's always a chance of being noticed when you're stealing. Maybe that chance should be closer to 100% in some cases! But the only way its ever 0% is if you're alone.

    Hmmm... my attempts at lock-picking and trying to bash them in have not been very effective thus far, but even when I have succeeded, and there is somebody else in the room, I have never been caught so far. I am not sure if I've been lucky or if my game has been patched in some way I am not aware of. (I am playing the downloaded version from GOG, with no mods at all).

    With regards to morality, I imagine Imoen as a carefree, reckless, opportunistic and spirited young girl who doesn't conform to rules of society. She is good at heart, but can't help but try to grab nice things from locked containers, not only to get at the nice things in them, but for the thrill of getting away with it. My lawful good protagonist disapproves, she does her thing behind his back, and he is forced to tolerate the behaviour to an extent, partly cos he has no choice, partly because she is his only friend/family left in the world.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    kamuizin said:

    atcDave said:

    Well I'd never accept a paladin playing Robin Hood. But a NG... maybe. Especially in a flagrantly evil community. Agree completely about the Lawful-stupid part.

    Well... there's the paladin of freedom class.

    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/house-rules/classes/paladin-of-freedom

    Also, there's the Holy Liberator official prestige class, displayed in the Complete Divine Player Handbook, that are a prestige class paladin of the specific chaotic good alignment, many times taken by chaotic good fighters or rangers and by some chaotic good clerics and even thiefs also, the very example of robin hood paladin.
    Those are all later rule sets. If your going to have a CG paladin that seems more reasonable. But in 2E, Paladins are all lawful-good, so Robin Hood seems much more unlikely.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387

    atcDave said:


    Getting caught can still cause trouble. She (and the party) can always run. But I tend to play it safe in towns. If you ever do kill an innocent, or a guard, you will take a big reputation hit.
    There's always a chance of being noticed when you're stealing. Maybe that chance should be closer to 100% in some cases! But the only way its ever 0% is if you're alone.

    Hmmm... my attempts at lock-picking and trying to bash them in have not been very effective thus far, but even when I have succeeded, and there is somebody else in the room, I have never been caught so far. I am not sure if I've been lucky or if my game has been patched in some way I am not aware of. (I am playing the downloaded version from GOG, with no mods at all).

    With regards to morality, I imagine Imoen as a carefree, reckless, opportunistic and spirited young girl who doesn't conform to rules of society. She is good at heart, but can't help but try to grab nice things from locked containers, not only to get at the nice things in them, but for the thrill of getting away with it. My lawful good protagonist disapproves, she does her thing behind his back, and he is forced to tolerate the behaviour to an extent, partly cos he has no choice, partly because she is his only friend/family left in the world.
    Yeah I see Imoen pretty much along the same lines. As I said, I draw a line at most sorts of B&E for her, but I don't believe she's overly worried about property issues at all. I think her morals mostly play into the life and death sort of stuff.
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