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Need help Archer/Thief build

Hi all!

The party I want need a thief and I want to play an kickass archer with thief abilities!

I want a combination of those two! I started a fighter/thief combo but he can't advance more than two proficiencies on bows :(

Is there a way to for example have 5* in bows and be a thief at same time? Didn't want to gimp my self dual classing and waiting 4/5 levels waiting for the Thief skills to be available...

The caracter will be running all from the beginning to the end of ToB.

Thanks in advance

«1

Comments

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,213
    Get yourself to level 3 as a fighter and put three of your proficiency points to bow. Dual class to thief. At level 4 as a thief you'll regain your fighter abilities and you can put another point to bows (making it 4*). At level 8 as a thief you will be able to have 5* in bows.

    Alternatively you can have stealth if you play as an archer (ranger kit), which are thieving abilities (you just can't get all of the thieving abilities including open locks, pick pocket and find traps).

    Finally, you could play a fighter/thief, and just use shadowkeeper to give yourself 5* in bows.

    JuliusBorisovlolien
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,684
    edited June 2013
    Multi-class with fighter restrict the proficience points to 2 while dual class to/from fighter allows to reach a proficience point of 5.

    If you change your mind and gonna just a play BG:EE or play BG2:EE (BG2) with another class, i would suggest Coran NPC to replace this character (fighter/thief elf with 20 in dexterity).

    It's unfortunate that rangers are only able to dual/multi (or maybe only multi, i'm not sure) to cleric. EE keeper doesn't allow any bypass of this rule either.

    My suggestion for you is to make a dual class fighter (3/7/13)/Thief or a Thief (the needed lvls to max OP and DT)/fighter.

    just be aware that proficience points don't sum between the classes while any of them is inactive. If you have more points into a proficience in the inactive class, if the new points spread supress those, they will replace, otherwise they will be only lost.

    elminsterJuliusBorisovSouthpawlolien
  • KuroAisuKuroAisu Member Posts: 8
    I now a fair bit of the baldur's series (not ToB unfortunally...) Finished lots of times BG1 and now that I bought the new EE I want to give a try as an evil party! And as an evil party I need to be the thief! But a pure thief is rather meh for me!

    I love bows so I wanted to make an archer with the most important open locks and detect traps!

    I need 100% in both right? (OL and DT)

    What diference can make in the long run, fighter 3/x thief and or thief 6/ x fighter ( 6 thief was the number that I found that maxed the two skills mencioned above)

    What are your thoughts?!

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,213
    edited June 2013
    Well you can see here http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts#Thieves_and_Bards That to get to a level 6 thief you need to have 20,000 xp. Comparatively you only need 8,000 to get to a level 3 fighter. So its faster to get to the level 3 fighter and then switch over. But honestly if you are going to go this route you have to understand you are sacrificing a 1/2 attack per round and damage with only minimal benefits that really are more relevant in BGEE than BG2.

    6 levels as a thief would mean you'd get 25x6 to spend on skills + your starting stats + dexterity bonuses. At 18 dexterity and as a human you'd get +15/+5 (open locks/find traps) from your dexterity bonuses and nothing for a race bonus.

    So evenly split you'd have 90 open locks and 80 find traps
    (this would turn into 95/85 when you use the manual of dexterity)
    .

    Honestly, thats good enough for either game provided you use potions of perception/master thievery in the very few chests in the game they will be needed. This will allow you to be a usable thief for these two skills, though you will have to wait awhile while you dual class over to a fighter before you can take advantage of them again.

    The other option is an elf fighter/thief. Only having specialisation (2*) in a weapon isn't bad and fighters do get extra attacks per round which (if it hasn't already been implemented) makes them more viable. The biggest difference between 2 and 5*'s is an extra 1/2 attack per round, (the 3 extra damage and 2 thaco is nice but not as big of a benefit). If you go with an elf fighter/thief it'll mean you'll eventually get 3 attacks per round with a bow in BGEE, you'll get a +1 thaco and damage bonus with bows (as an elf) and + thaco bonus because you can start out with 19 dexterity.

    My explanations are getting horribly convoluted and rather subjective, but suffice to say its not (rule wise) legally possible to have the best bow wielding fighter you can have while at the same time you keep access to your thieving skills and get 100/100 in open locks/find traps (without the use of potions)

    JuliusBorisovlolien
  • KuroAisuKuroAisu Member Posts: 8
    Right forgot about the only human can dual fighter-->thief damm it...

    Well I thought I would lose a lot more being a fighter/thief with only 2*, to be honest! In the end I only lose 2 extra damage.

    It's too much waiting to get the thief levels again, 6 or 7... I could be a level 3 fighter and the rest on thief but at least for this run I'm not aiming to backstabing etc (maybe sometimes just for fun!). I'll be sniping everything that's why I love the two archers from BG1 :)

    Ok concluding the pros and cons I'll pursue the elf fighter/thief carreer! My evil party begins! :)

    Thanks for all the help and fast answers!

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,684
    edited June 2013
    This chart can help you a bit about the APR issue.

    http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts

    As you can see, at 3° lvl a fighter get another proficience point, at 7° lvl your fighter you get an extra 1/2 attack per round, at lvl 13 you get another 1/2 attack per round (it's a total of 1 extra atk per round with the sum of lvl 7 and 13).

    I suggest a thief/fighter (human) rather than a fighter/thief.
    You're going to be more ranged than melee, so backstab isn't a problem, you want thief skills more for pick locks and detect traps than anything else and Attack per rounds, thac0, hp and equipment options are better with a fight. By the existence of a previous thief class you're going have access to Thief HLAs as well.

    Old BG2 manual and the other following link can help you with this, in the thief skill chars of BG2 manual you get a base for the thief skills x dexterity value until dex 19, in the other link you get the progression of the thief skills further dexterity 19 but based on old BG table (that has only 4 kinds of skills that will need to be linked from old BG to BG:EE).

    http://bg2download.free.fr/BG2_manual.pdf

    http://stane0.tripod.com/BG1Tables.html



    Starting with a human thief and 18 dexterity in BG:EE with a human will give you:

    25% pick pocket
    25% open locks
    10% detect traps
    20% move silently
    15% hide in shadows
    10% detect illusion

    +40 skill points to distribute
    By bypassing dexterity from 18 to 19 (tome of quickness action) you got a +5% bonus in every skill except detect illusion. from 19 to 20 (kiel's buckler) you get another +5% bonus in pick pocket, open lock and detect traps and +3% bonus in move silently and hide in shadows.

    So from a start point you can calculate a start with 55% in pick pocket and detect traps (but it will be in fact 45% in each until you got dex 20). You can calculate the pickpocket and detect traps to be increased until 95% or 100%.

    Hide in shadow and move silently can be increased by items into a fast amount during BG, specially BG2 (and you can get invisible by other means)

    With this data, you can even choose to take a kit from the thief class if you want.

    If you take thief vanilla, with the fast skill increase per level i suggest dual class at lvl 4.
    If you take assassin kit, dual class at lvl 9 (and you gonna get 5x backstab multipler and the poison weapon is good for ranged weapons also)
    If you take Swashbuckler, dual class at lvl 5/6 (i don't know exactly when the class get the AC and hit/dmg bonus)
    If you take Shadow Dancer... well it's a bit out of character for an thief/figher archer, but ok... dual at lvl 9, you get the maximum Backstab multiple for this class and suffice skill points for whatever you want.
    If you take Bounty Hunder... well just don't take this class, it's a shit, you're even better with vanilla class than this kit.

    A lvl 4/5 thief can be quickly achieved, and a lvl 9 thief will be a pure thief the entire BG:EE anyway, the dual will only happen at BG2, where XP increase faster.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,213
    kamuizin said:



    Starting with a human thief and 18 dexterity in BG:EE with a human will give you:

    25% pick pocket
    25% open locks
    10% detect traps
    20% move silently
    15% hide in shadows
    10% detect illusion

    Woops yea you are right I was looking at bonuses. I also forgot about the 40 at start instead of 25.

    lolien
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    Just remember that if you dual class from fighter you won't be able to get any of the fighter HLA, and this is where the damage sits. It's the only way to get 10 APR without improved haste, or critcal strike + improved haste. This is purely from the perspective of you playing baldur's gate 2 aswell, otherwise just go with the dual class.

    You might also want to wait with dual classing to level 7 or 13 for the extra ½ apr which will be very important.

    lolien
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,213
    edited June 2013
    kamuizin said:


    With this data, you can even choose to take a kit from the thief class if you want.

    If you take thief vanilla, with the fast skill increase per level i suggest dual class at lvl 4.
    If you take assassin kit, dual class at lvl 9 (and you gonna get 5x backstab multipler and the poison weapon is good for ranged weapons also)
    If you take Swashbuckler, dual class at lvl 5/6 (i don't know exactly when the class get the AC and hit/dmg bonus)
    If you take Shadow Dancer... well it's a bit out of character for an thief/figher archer, but ok... dual at lvl 9, you get the maximum Backstab multiple for this class and suffice skill points for whatever you want.
    If you take Bounty Hunder... well just don't take this class, it's a shit, you're even better with vanilla class than this kit.

    A lvl 4/5 thief can be quickly achieved, and a lvl 9 thief will be a pure thief the entire BG:EE anyway, the dual will only happen at BG2, where XP increase faster.


    You'll get 4x backstab multiplier with a level 9 assassin. 13 is the level that you get x5.

    Swashbucklers get +1/+1 attack related bonuses at level 5, +2/+2 at level 10, etc.

    I'd still go with the fighter/thief personally. The difference in APR and damage output is mitigated either way. Plus at higher levels you'll get access to both thief and fighter higher-level-abilities. Which is pretty sweet. Does whirlwind/greater whirlwind work with ranged attacks? 10 APR with time stop traps isn't bad if that is the case :D

    lolien
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,684
    Not right @Elminster, an assassin is always an X multiple above any other class in backstabs (and also they reach backstab x7 later while other thief classes stuck at backstab 5).

    The own table you quoted before state this, the manual display a vanilla thief backstab evolution, in the assassin's advantage list on character creation the +1 bonus in backstab is displayed.

    The start skills you blockquoted from my previous post:
    Starting with a human thief and 18 dexterity in BG:EE with a human will give you:

    25% pick pocket
    25% open locks
    10% detect traps
    20% move silently
    15% hide in shadows
    10% detect illusion
    They're made without any point distribution. Yes, this isn't right if we manually calculate, but before post, i created a human thief character in BG:EE with dex 18 and these where the base skills he started (without distributing the extra 40 skill points). So it's possible to BG:EE to have a different thief skill chart.

    @SionIV i believe you're right about this, only multi-class characters have access to both HLA perks, Dual-class characters are left only with the dualed class HLA perk (another reason to go thief/fighter instead of fighter/thief, unless you have plans for a wizard slayer).

    lolien
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,213
    kamuizin said:

    Not right @Elminster, an assassin is always an X multiple above any other class in backstabs (and also they reach backstab x7 later while other thief classes stuck at backstab 5).

    The own table you quoted before state this, the manual display a vanilla thief backstab evolution, in the assassin's advantage list on character creation the +1 bonus in backstab is displayed.

    The start skills you blockquoted from my previous post:

    Starting with a human thief and 18 dexterity in BG:EE with a human will give you:

    25% pick pocket
    25% open locks
    10% detect traps
    20% move silently
    15% hide in shadows
    10% detect illusion
    They're made without any point distribution. Yes, this isn't right if we manually calculate, but before post, i created a human thief character in BG:EE with dex 18 and these where the base skills he started (without distributing the extra 40 skill points). So it's possible to BG:EE to have a different thief skill chart.

    @SionIV i believe you're right about this, only multi-class characters have access to both HLA perks, Dual-class characters are left only with the dualed class HLA perk (another reason to go thief/fighter instead of fighter/thief, unless you have plans for a wizard slayer).

    Really not disputing you on the thieving points front at this point. At least if I did in my post it was not intentional.

    There is a +1 bonus to attack and a +1 bonus to damage that assassins get for all their attacks, but their multiplier damage doesn't deviate from that of a standard thief. Check out the backstab.2DA file in near infinite and you will see that thieves normally get 4x backstab at level 9 and 5x at level 13. That doesn't change with the assassin. The only thief kit that has a different rate of backstab is the shadow dancer (and that shows up in that 2DA file.

    I can't use BGEE at the moment, but you can see in BG2 (with fixpack not that that makes any difference)

    My assassin level 13 (you can tell this by how much she needs for the next level)


    image

    and a regular old thief I made up just now.

    image

    JuliusBorisovlolien
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,684
    edited June 2013
    I don't know which changes the fixpack you used make but here's an display of a vanilla thief at lvl 9 x an assassin at lvl 9:

    Vanilla Thief lvl 9

    image
    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    Vanilla thief Backstab at lvl 9

    image
    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    Assassin thief lvl 9

    image
    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    Assassin thief backstab at lvl 9

    image
    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    Character creation info about assassin:

    image
    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    Ps: In BG:EE, assassins start with 40 skill points to distribute in character creation (they should start with 30), probally another mistake (the devs probally forget to set this), pretty much alike Dwarven Defenders being able to grand master axes 5*, when they should only being able to master it 4*.

    JuliusBorisov
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    The BG:EE assassin is much different to the original one.

    elminsterlolien
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,213
    edited June 2013
    SionIV said:

    The BG:EE assassin is much different to the original one.

    Ahh so they changed it. That explains it :) I also notice they added in the evil or neutral alignment requirement.

    lolien
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    elminster said:

    SionIV said:

    The BG:EE assassin is much different to the original one.

    Ahh so they changed it. That explains it :) I also notice they added in the evil or neutral alignment requirement.
    It's one of the few things i dislike about BGEE, i'm used to the orginal and a thing like this gets me confused.

    elminster
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,213
    edited June 2013
    SionIV said:

    elminster said:

    SionIV said:

    The BG:EE assassin is much different to the original one.

    Ahh so they changed it. That explains it :) I also notice they added in the evil or neutral alignment requirement.
    It's one of the few things i dislike about BGEE, i'm used to the orginal and a thing like this gets me confused.
    While this discussion is becoming somewhat off topic I agree. Who is to say there can't be good assassins? You know people who only kill evil targets (or at least targets who have done an evil thing).

    lolien
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,684
    I somehow agree with Assassins being neutral or evil only, you can be good and still kill bad people, but make the assassination a profession... well it's just a bit outside of a good aligned behavior.

    About the off-topic, the guy whom asked for help already got everything he would wish for and more so, at least me, i don't mind going of topic here now (the help is already given and soon some moderator will close this topic anyway).

  • EdwinEdwin Member Posts: 480
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,684
    Edwin said:

    What would Dexter be?

    Surely not good, maybe lawful at most. He can even be evil, but a lawful evil focused person, besides no one is totally evil (by rule), pure evil is reserved for devils and demons, no?

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,213
    edited June 2013
    kamuizin said:

    Edwin said:

    What would Dexter be?

    Surely not good, maybe lawful at most. He can even be evil, but a lawful evil focused person, besides no one is totally evil (by rule), pure evil is reserved for devils and demons, no?
    I kind of lean more towards saying true neutral. It just seems like while he has his own code (lawful neutral like) to dealing with his problem he's pretty apathetic towards society in general. At least from what I've seen of the show (which is probably just season 1+2). He may have changed over time though that I'm not aware of. Outside of his killing he is lawful (from what I recall) but there is that individualistic element (like in chaotic neutral people) to his actions.

    lolien
  • EdwinEdwin Member Posts: 480
    edited June 2013
    A Kensia/Theif is a lethal combination particularly if you plan on playing it through TOB levels. The Kai-Backstab combo which will superchunk many bad guys in one blow with a decent roll.

    EDIT: Disregard.... Didn't pay close enough attention. Kensia definitely quashes any archery ambitions.

    elminster
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,213
    edited July 2013
    @kamuizin

    I've installed BGEE from Beamdog on a computer that has never had it installed before. I'm still getting assassins reading as they were in BG2.

    image

    image

    As you can see I can make a neutral good assassin with 2x backstab at level 1 in BGEE.

    lolien
  • CactusCactus Member Posts: 152
    @kamuizin Your thiefs are not completely vanilla... A theif only gets 18 STR, not 18/xx :) A multi or duelclassed fighter/thief do get 18/xx STR.

    @KuroAisu
    I recommend multi Fighter/Thief. If mainly used with bows, either choose halfling for max thieving skills & 19 DEX (good ranged) & shortysaves or elf for 19 DEX and a +1 to hit with bows.

    Read about the fighter/theif multi- and duals here:

    http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Dual_and_Multiclassing#Fighter.2FThief

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,684
    edited July 2013
    That means i used ctrl+8 in character creation with Debug Mode on, only this @Cactus, that doesn't influence the issues discussed here.

    Badmass
  • BattlehamsterBattlehamster Member Posts: 298
    kamuizin said:

    Edwin said:

    What would Dexter be?

    Well he generally upholds the laws as a police officer and generally makes it his duty to promote the will of the law, but he does kill people (intends to kill "evil" people) and break the law. Some would say chaotic, but I'd say he's disqualified from that since he is an official of the law. He best fits the definition of someone for whom social order itself holds no jurisdiction over his moral compass which is essentially the definition of a neutral good character. I consider C,G people to be benevolent anarchists myself. Something which Dexter really isn't. It really depends on whether you base evil on the intention or the actual act. If its on the act, then prolly Lawful evil. If you base it (evil) on the intent then he'd be neutral good since he doesn't really have an evil intent in mind - unless its the satiation of his own personal fetish as opposed to *taming* his fetish towards a benevolent end.

  • kabkab Member Posts: 75
    First, you should be aware that bows are not particularly good in SoA and ToB. I'm not sure what the particular problem is, a lack of magical arrows perhaps. I don't play archers but I've heard it oft repeated.

    Second, as far as dual classing goes, if you were thinking about going Thief -> Fighter you can actually get your skills back quickly and easily. The Ankhegs and Basilisks are both very easy to kill at range as a fighter. You can get 40k experience in a very short time without missing those thief skills this way. I think a lot of people do not realize how easily you can bypass most if not all of the inactive time.

    Third, if you want a "badass archer" that does not necessarily require Grandmastery. Have you considered something like a Bard? The additional of Mage spells can make them far more powerful as a ranged attacker using bows mixed with spells to buff or debuff.

    Fourth, Dexter is absolutely either Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral. The first few seasons are LE, he kind of has a bit of a character arc that makes him a bit more LN though. Lawful absolutely though, he plays within the rules out of fear of punishment. His narrative makes him out to be selfish and his acts of apparent selflessness nothing more than an act to keep him out of trouble (e.g. really still selfish). The later seasons are where this seems a bit more neutral to me.

  • jethrojethro Member Posts: 81
    I dualed a Swashbuckler->Fighter and maxed both Open Locks and Detect Traps...I think I dualed at Lvl 6. Didn't take too long to get back the skills (I did do a little Basilisk farming, but whatever!) Great build. Achieved grand mastery in dual-wielding Axes (but bows would be viable too) and did massive damage. the +2 to damage and +1 to AC was pretty sweet too...

    Also, don't forget to take into account some of the thief armor/boots/gloves/etc. that you can equip. Makes a difference...

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    Archery drops off a lot in late SOA due to all the cool ammo in BG1 being completely absent, nerfed, or very very rare. An archer-kit does ok, because their extra damage helps offset the lack of a str bonus for bows/x-bows, but non-archers are generally SOL since generic ammo or maybe weakened elemental ammo are the best you get.

    Bows (and throwing daggers/darts) really exist only to give non-fighters access to bonus attacks. warriors are much better off (usually) just going melee or using thrown weapons since they already get bonus attacks. Except at low levels where melee is more dangerous and they haven't gotten their first extra attack yet.

    (Especially true in PnP as PnP bows/xbows don't get any bonus attacks from warrior levels or specialization (and specialization/expertise is much weaker to them them then other weapons), making them really only the stuff of very low level warriors, or bard/thieves. The archer kit being the exception, since it gets bonus damage and extra attacks when using bows at the cost of their bonus warrior apr and the ability go beyond proficiency in melee).

  • kabkab Member Posts: 75
    On that note, there has got to be a mod for arrows in BG2. Of course if you wait until BG2:EE comes out it might be a while before it gets ported... but then again BG2:EE might have more arrows too!

  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    kamuizin said:

    Character creation info about assassin:

    image
    Uploaded with ImageShack.us

    Ps: In BG:EE, assassins start with 40 skill points to distribute in character creation (they should start with 30), probally another mistake (the devs probally forget to set this), pretty much alike Dwarven Defenders being able to grand master axes 5*, when they should only being able to master it 4*.

    What fixes/patch do you have installed? My Assassin is not as OP/awesome (on paper) as yours...

    elminster
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