Eventually, sure, but there's like, what, 7-8 levels between those points?
Berserker13/Cleric is going to be a significantly better spellcaster than F/C while being a comparable fighter. No HLAs, but combine Enrage with Greater Haste and you don't need them anyway. Again, I feel like HLAs get way too much attention in these discussions.
@Phototoxin: There is no "need" for anything, just a desire to optimize. A meta-game in and of itself, if you so will. It's easier to see why you'd powergame if you play with a load of difficult mods, and on Insane difficulty. If you play the Vanilla game on Core, however, it's just overkill. To each his own, that's why we have the option of customizing
that means only that berseker/cleric reach max potential earlier while f/c need more time
That's exactly what my point was this whole time And where that sweet spot lies when you catch up in power depends entirely on the available XP, i.e. party size and composition. QED.
Still, that's looking at some ultimate goal; arguably, that's not the best way to look at it (certainly it's not the only way). As we've discussed before if you recall, "power" is quite relative in this game. While an emphasis on late game makes sense (the vast majority of hard fights are there), you can't ignore early and mid-game completely. There's certainly a point where duals are icky to deal with, but then there's also a point where multis are lagging behind. Shifting these spots around until they fit your style best is, I think, the optimal way to tackle this problem.
But going back to the HLA issue - how much value do you place on Hardiness? You cite it numerous times as a crucial point, but I still don't see how.
@Phototoxin: There is no "need" for anything, just a desire to optimize. A meta-game in and of itself, if you so will. It's easier to see why you'd powergame if you play with a load of difficult mods, and on Insane difficulty. If you play the Vanilla game on Core, however, it's just overkill. To each his own, that's why we have the option of customizing
that means only that berseker/cleric reach max potential earlier while f/c need more time
That's exactly what my point was this whole time And where that sweet spot lies when you catch up in power depends entirely on the available XP, i.e. party size and composition. QED.
Still, that's looking at some ultimate goal; arguably, that's not the best way to look at it (certainly it's not the only way). As we've discussed before if you recall, "power" is quite relative in this game. While an emphasis on late game makes sense (the vast majority of hard fights are there), you can't ignore early and mid-game completely. There's certainly a point where duals are icky to deal with, but then there's also a point where multis are lagging behind. Shifting these spots around until they fit your style best is, I think, the optimal way to tackle this problem.
But going back to the HLA issue - how much value do you place on Hardiness? You cite it numerous times as a crucial point, but I still don't see how.
well firkraag hits for 70 dmg on insane this is why i think it is important
about late duals and lagging multi it is not comparable due to party combinations mods xp and even preference of someone
In my opinion, I've always thought the biggest advantage a dual has over a multi, is that it gets to choose a kit. Shouldn't a discussion such as this, only cover the vanilla un-modded version of the game? If we start to bring in mods, what's superior will all depend on what mods each person has installed.
Shouldn't a discussion such as this, only cover the vanilla un-modded version of the game? If we start to bring in mods, what's superior will all depend on what mods each person has installed.
That would end up quite moot, as the vanilla game isn't challenging enough to warrant (or present any kind of actual realistic difficulty to) a powergaming approach.
In my opinion whirlwind attack is by far the best fighter HLA. That's the big one that dual fighter > thieves lose out on.
A lvl13 fighter can reach 10apr with Improved Haste, which will even last longer than a GWA. Hardiness can be dispelled too. And guess what? A F>C will win a dispell contest vs a F/C.
In my opinion whirlwind attack is by far the best fighter HLA. That's the big one that dual fighter > thieves lose out on.
A lvl13 fighter can reach 10apr with Improved Haste, which will even last longer than a GWA. Hardiness can be dispelled too. And guess what? A F>C will win a dispell contest vs a F/C.
I don't remember hardiness being able to be dispelled, although perhaps I'm remembering it wrong. And in my experience with SCSII, dispels come thick and fast - and enemy casters are almost always high enough level to dispel pretty much everything. Which means I don't like relying on Improved Haste.
I'm not sure of the relevance of a player vs player dispel contest because BG2 is only PVE.
Anyway, it's just my opinion and I'm sure has a lot to do with how I play the game. Your mileage may vary.
In my opinion whirlwind attack is by far the best fighter HLA. That's the big one that dual fighter > thieves lose out on.
A lvl13 fighter can reach 10apr with Improved Haste, which will even last longer than a GWA. Hardiness can be dispelled too. And guess what? A F>C will win a dispell contest vs a F/C.
yeah this f>c will surely cast his dispell while being clobbered to death by f/c
In my opinion whirlwind attack is by far the best fighter HLA. That's the big one that dual fighter > thieves lose out on.
A lvl13 fighter can reach 10apr with Improved Haste, which will even last longer than a GWA. Hardiness can be dispelled too. And guess what? A F>C will win a dispell contest vs a F/C.
while not having hardiness/critical strike/other hlas
MC also get about 7-8 more HLA then a dual or single class does (and starts gaining them at the exact same time a dual/single would). (Barring some stupidly over the top high level, waste of time dual, which can squeeze a couple extra HLA out).
Where did that idea come from, to compare power by pitting characters against each other? It's a completely unrepresentative scenario and of very little use save entertainment value.
I haven't played Black Pits, maybe it matters there what do I know. Still, this discussion is of most relevance to BG2/ToB, as BG1 follows entirely different rules.
Comments
Berserker13/Cleric is going to be a significantly better spellcaster than F/C while being a comparable fighter. No HLAs, but combine Enrage with Greater Haste and you don't need them anyway. Again, I feel like HLAs get way too much attention in these discussions.
@zur312 That's exactly what my point was this whole time
Still, that's looking at some ultimate goal; arguably, that's not the best way to look at it (certainly it's not the only way). As we've discussed before if you recall, "power" is quite relative in this game. While an emphasis on late game makes sense (the vast majority of hard fights are there), you can't ignore early and mid-game completely. There's certainly a point where duals are icky to deal with, but then there's also a point where multis are lagging behind. Shifting these spots around until they fit your style best is, I think, the optimal way to tackle this problem.
But going back to the HLA issue - how much value do you place on Hardiness? You cite it numerous times as a crucial point, but I still don't see how.
about late duals and lagging multi it is not comparable due to party combinations mods xp and even preference of someone
I think dualling from lvl 20+ is ridiculous and cannot really be considered "most powerful" in an overall sense.
If we start to bring in mods, what's superior will all depend on what mods each person has installed.
Hardiness can be dispelled too. And guess what? A F>C will win a dispell contest vs a F/C.
I'm not sure of the relevance of a player vs player dispel contest because BG2 is only PVE.
Anyway, it's just my opinion and I'm sure has a lot to do with how I play the game. Your mileage may vary.
If you were being facetious, my apologies.