@ZanathKariashi - Right I forgot about all the 3.5e social skills. BG2 has much more RP content, but I agree that it's not as sophisticated or nuanced an RP system.
As a proof how well this game was conceived balance wise, I have completed it in iron man mode in my second run (actually the first serious run after testing the waters). Another game like this is Knights of the Chalice, which I have also completed in iron man mode.
Now I can complete BG1 in iron man mode any time, having insight and abusing game mechanics, but even if you know the basics, the game twists and bends the rules so unpredictable that it's almost impossible for someone who haven't tried at least ten attempts through the game to finish it without reloading once.
I decided to give this a go, and bought it on GOG. So far, I really don't know what to make of it. It's STUPIDLY hard, and I haven't got a god-damn clue what's going on! I'm only persevering with it because I'm still curious, but that will wear off soon unless someone can give me some tips.
ToEE was a great game for me. It also worked without the patch 10 years ago, but then I was more tolerant of bugs I think.
Its one of that games where I feel sorry for the developers, for the whole engine wasn't used more intensively, and the engine did such a great job. I was absolutely sure that this engine would be some kind of a new infinite engine to bring out more d&d games. I was absolutely wrong.
On the other hand, I must say, that I didn't like the style of 3rd edition.
After years of looking in manuals of games (I'm 32), I have found that they are no help to me. Basically, I'm trying to treat the party formation like I have in BG, ID and NWN, but everyone seems woefully ineffective in combat. So, I'm trying to gain exp in the town by doing any jobs I can find... that doesn't seem to be going too well. Also, items are ridiculously expensive, even with a high CHA. I tried making a single character and teaming up with two guys from the tavern, but after every battle, they just took whatever I tried to pick up from the bodies themselves and wouldn't share. When I tried to make them leave the party, they got shitty with me and said they would only leave at Hommlet. So, I went back, tried to get rid of the thief, and he turned hostile. I killed him, and went to take his stuff... the other fighter took all the god-damn loot!!!
When we first bought ToEE together with my brother right upon the release, we had hoped that it's going to be a new Balduresque game in a new engine and the ruleset.
Though the game itself has less sidequests and more combat than BG, We enjoyed it very much and the only real disappointment was that it ended so quickly. Oh and the thing that bugged me the most was the lack of new magical chains (the ultra-awesome weapon you swing at your enemy)
Well first off, don't try to play ToEE without the co8 patches. There are just too many bugs to make the game playable. You have to be very careful of "attacks-of-opportunity" (aoo's). The way to avoid them is to to use the 5 foot step which is a free action.
Note that character build is much more critical in the 3.x rules. You have to plan pretty carefully and in general this becomes a deep topic.
The Co8 version also provides a little mini adventure for level 1 characters to help get you over that first threshold.
Anyway, I'd definitely go with 5 PCs to begin with. When it comes to companions, there are a few in the village that can be recruited for free: In the inn you can find a guy named Zert (Maybe only at certain times, he wasn't there the first time I visited), and (on the second floor) there's a wizard. The Irish rogue will also join you if you expose his cheating to the innkeeper. The drunk also seems to be a good fighter, though he's not free, I guess. As for them looting stuff themselves... I've had no trouble with that. Maybe the Co8 version does away with that.
On to Combat: like @FredSRichardson said, AoO's are a great danger. Also be careful to not get your guys surrounded, flanking gives the attacker +2 to Hit. Well, in PnP at least, I'm not sure if (or how) the game implements that, but I've been minding it anyway while fighting just in fade. I'll have to do some research and get back to you on that.
Another good move is to use charge attacks if you can't reach an enemy with one move action, though it requires a straight line to the enemy. The game seem to calculate that a bit funny, though.
Lastly, I'm sorry for not getting back sooner. I wanted to try out the game a bit more first and didn't have as much time to play as I had thought.
The manual on flanking: "When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus to your attack roll if an ally of yours who is on the opposite side of the creature also threatens your opponent. Therefore, moving your attacking characters on opposite sides of a target can be an extremely rewarding maneuver, since both of them will gain flanking bonuses against the target."
So I finally decided to give this a try after picking it up cheaply on GoG. Just never got around to playing it before, despite playing pretty much all of the other D&D games (including the old gold box games!). I've installed the Co8 patches.
Pros - Extremely faithful to PNP rules, although I'm not a huge fan of 3ED. - Story and pacing seem pretty good so far. - The fights are challenging without being impossible.
Cons - Although the turn based combat works fairly well, I'm still not a fan. I prefer real time with pause. - The radial menu is pretty awful to use, although it does provide a wide variety of options. - The tooltips/help are extremely limited.
I liked some aspects of the game engine immensely, but it was a real mixed bag. The turn-based tactical combat with attacks of opportunity, flanking bonuses and the rest makes you pay attention for the most trivial combat. It's also difficult enough to make it fun, no cakewalks there.
The turn-based system has flaws though. I remember the final battle, where the boss summons a huge number of critters. There were 5-10 minute gaps between my turns waiting for them all to move. Faithful to PnP perhaps, but frustrating as hell.
It also has one of my favorite annoyances - corny dialogue with bad voice acting. It's an affliction that all too often takes the shine off a game. Skyrim, I'm looking at you.
The character-building, item crafting and other little nerdy aspects are enjoyable though. I loved creating unique weapons for my party, especially because each item type would show up on your character and give them a distinct look.
I'm going to be pretentious and call it a Curate's Egg - something which is excellent in parts but terrible in others, and it's debateable where this leaves the overall game. I never played with the co8 mods though, so maybe I've missed out there.
Biggest downfalls for of this game for me was that it was too short and too small. If this was more similar to BG1 in terms of story and exploration it would have been 2x better.
*waves hands around and makes spooky noises* Mwuhahaha, the creation of this post shall give it life, and make me a (minor) thread Necromancer!
Seriously though, I've just restarted a game of ToEE. Hommlett really needs a crew of trained counsellors/Fedex service. Getting through level 1 was painful.
I'm having fun playing but seem to rely on tactics that work in BG (sleep and glitterdust for example). What class combos, spell selection or equipment do you favor and why?
Comments
Now I can complete BG1 in iron man mode any time, having insight and abusing game mechanics, but even if you know the basics, the game twists and bends the rules so unpredictable that it's almost impossible for someone who haven't tried at least ten attempts through the game to finish it without reloading once.
So far, I really don't know what to make of it. It's STUPIDLY hard, and I haven't got a god-damn clue what's going on! I'm only persevering with it because I'm still curious, but that will wear off soon unless someone can give me some tips.
Its one of that games where I feel sorry for the developers, for the whole engine wasn't used more intensively, and the engine did such a great job. I was absolutely sure that this engine would be some kind of a new infinite engine to bring out more d&d games. I was absolutely wrong.
On the other hand, I must say, that I didn't like the style of 3rd edition.
@Magnus_Grelich - What do you need help with? Also, if you haven't already, take a look in the manual - a lot of old games assumed you did.
Basically, I'm trying to treat the party formation like I have in BG, ID and NWN, but everyone seems woefully ineffective in combat. So, I'm trying to gain exp in the town by doing any jobs I can find... that doesn't seem to be going too well. Also, items are ridiculously expensive, even with a high CHA. I tried making a single character and teaming up with two guys from the tavern, but after every battle, they just took whatever I tried to pick up from the bodies themselves and wouldn't share. When I tried to make them leave the party, they got shitty with me and said they would only leave at Hommlet. So, I went back, tried to get rid of the thief, and he turned hostile. I killed him, and went to take his stuff... the other fighter took all the god-damn loot!!!
What the hell?!!
Though the game itself has less sidequests and more combat than BG, We enjoyed it very much and the only real disappointment was that it ended so quickly.
Oh and the thing that bugged me the most was the lack of new magical chains (the ultra-awesome weapon you swing at your enemy)
Note that character build is much more critical in the 3.x rules. You have to plan pretty carefully and in general this becomes a deep topic.
Anyway, I'd definitely go with 5 PCs to begin with. When it comes to companions, there are a few in the village that can be recruited for free: In the inn you can find a guy named Zert (Maybe only at certain times, he wasn't there the first time I visited), and (on the second floor) there's a wizard. The Irish rogue will also join you if you expose his cheating to the innkeeper. The drunk also seems to be a good fighter, though he's not free, I guess. As for them looting stuff themselves... I've had no trouble with that. Maybe the Co8 version does away with that.
On to Combat: like @FredSRichardson said, AoO's are a great danger. Also be careful to not get your guys surrounded, flanking gives the attacker +2 to Hit. Well, in PnP at least, I'm not sure if (or how) the game implements that, but I've been minding it anyway while fighting just in fade. I'll have to do some research and get back to you on that.
Another good move is to use charge attacks if you can't reach an enemy with one move action, though it requires a straight line to the enemy. The game seem to calculate that a bit funny, though.
Lastly, I'm sorry for not getting back sooner. I wanted to try out the game a bit more first and didn't have as much time to play as I had thought.
ally of yours who is on the opposite side of the creature also threatens your opponent.
Therefore, moving your attacking characters on opposite sides of a target can
be an extremely rewarding maneuver, since both of them will gain flanking bonuses
against the target."
Pros
- Extremely faithful to PNP rules, although I'm not a huge fan of 3ED.
- Story and pacing seem pretty good so far.
- The fights are challenging without being impossible.
Cons
- Although the turn based combat works fairly well, I'm still not a fan. I prefer real time with pause.
- The radial menu is pretty awful to use, although it does provide a wide variety of options.
- The tooltips/help are extremely limited.
The turn-based system has flaws though. I remember the final battle, where the boss summons a huge number of critters. There were 5-10 minute gaps between my turns waiting for them all to move. Faithful to PnP perhaps, but frustrating as hell.
It also has one of my favorite annoyances - corny dialogue with bad voice acting. It's an affliction that all too often takes the shine off a game. Skyrim, I'm looking at you.
The character-building, item crafting and other little nerdy aspects are enjoyable though. I loved creating unique weapons for my party, especially because each item type would show up on your character and give them a distinct look.
I'm going to be pretentious and call it a Curate's Egg - something which is excellent in parts but terrible in others, and it's debateable where this leaves the overall game. I never played with the co8 mods though, so maybe I've missed out there.
Seriously though, I've just restarted a game of ToEE. Hommlett really needs a crew of trained counsellors/Fedex service. Getting through level 1 was painful.
I'm having fun playing but seem to rely on tactics that work in BG (sleep and glitterdust for example). What class combos, spell selection or equipment do you favor and why?