Still don't understand THAC0
MagikGimp
Member Posts: 30
I've never played D&D so have never really concerned myself with THAC0 when playing D&D rule-set video games. I'm also not a maths nerd and so have never cared to understand how to calculate it but this situation for my main character (see attachments) I just don't understand. I've actually been rolling with it for a while in my game now and have had a sneaking suspicion that my Kensai hasn't been hitting as enough as he really should be for a daring-do warrior class this whole time; now I see why although it makes no sense to me.
My character has weapon proficiencies in long swords (**), axes (**), single-weapon style (*) and dual-weapon style (*) but when fighting with both an axe (2nd hand) and long sword (1st) his THAC0 is reduced dramatically. Why on Earth would this be? Is it because of his stats? Because single is negating dual? Will this be rectified once I place another point in dual?
I should point out that I chose both single and dual because I figured I'd be starting out with only one weapon and finding a good sword/axe to combine with it later and wanted the full bonus for the whole time I was fighting.
Any sage advice, numbers and all if you must, would be appreciated. Just go easy on me for not caring much about the inner workings on which so much of the game is based. I just prefer immersion to maxing out my chances! Cheers guys.
My character has weapon proficiencies in long swords (**), axes (**), single-weapon style (*) and dual-weapon style (*) but when fighting with both an axe (2nd hand) and long sword (1st) his THAC0 is reduced dramatically. Why on Earth would this be? Is it because of his stats? Because single is negating dual? Will this be rectified once I place another point in dual?
I should point out that I chose both single and dual because I figured I'd be starting out with only one weapon and finding a good sword/axe to combine with it later and wanted the full bonus for the whole time I was fighting.
Any sage advice, numbers and all if you must, would be appreciated. Just go easy on me for not caring much about the inner workings on which so much of the game is based. I just prefer immersion to maxing out my chances! Cheers guys.
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So when you attack somebody in D&D, you roll a dice with 20 sides. Say your opponent had AC 0, if your THAC0 was 15, you would need to roll a 15 or better to hit. If your THAC0 was 5, you only need a 5 or better to hit. If your THAC0 was 10, but your opponent's AC was -5, then you'd need to roll a 15 or higher to hit.
If your THACO is 18 on - lets say your Kensai - you have to roll 18-20 to land a hit.
If your ThACO is 12 you only have to roll 8 or anything above that to land a hit
If armor, on enemy is -2
you would have to roll 2+ on the same above with your "THACO DICE" so, 20 and 10 on the exemple above.
Also, if you roll 1 you will always miss I think, and 20 always hit (... + doing a critical hit)
Thats how I was taught at age 14, playing Baldurs gate 2 by a girl in class
Now that girl, in my class, was a dummy so maybe she got it wrong to.
oh, Heindrich1988 wrote before me - dooh!
It comes down to a personal choice in BGEE. Always get a high strength, of course, but you really need to choose either specializing and not dual-wielding or merely being proficient and getting *** in dual-wield. Of course, if you don't mind restricting yourself then you could put ** in a weapon and *** in dual-wield--the best defense for a kensai is a good offense. I prefer my fighters to be able to use all sorts of weapons, which is why I don't often opt for specialization.
Heindrich1988 - I had a rough idea it was this but was too lazy to bother checking thinking it was going to be horribly complicated. Thanks to your explanation I've realised it's much simpler than I thought!
raxtoren - You were taught BG by a girl from school? Ah, happy days; it doesn't get much better than that!
Mathsorcerer - Your handle couldn't be more appropriate. I am probably your lawfully good mage arch nemesis, or something...
But, thanks to what you and Wisp said, am I right in saying that having one point of proficiency doesn't help me one bit? That's the impression I'm getting anyway. I have one in single AND one in dual (Kensai have 5 to go around at the start [I think] and I've had a bonus one on levelling since.) I should probably have read the manual but you'd think one would be at least something of an advantage. It seems absolutely useless from what you guys are saying. Dark Viper's str. is 16 and his dex. is 12 if that's worth also mentioning. It's a rule of mine to always accept the first roll no matter how low each score is.
But, the reason you're THAC0 takes such a big hit when you equip an axe and a sword at the same time, is because dual wielding has THAC0 penalties.
Without any points, it is -4 for the Main Hand and -8 for the Off-Hand, every point in it will reduce the penalties by 2, but it won't goto a bonus.
You stated you have one point in the style, you are then getting a -2 to the Main Hand, the sword, and a -6 to the Off-Hand, the axe. Though with 2 points in both weapons, you will get a +1 to hit on both... So from proficiencies, You're final for both is -1 for the Main Hand and -5 for the Off-hand.
http://s14.photobucket.com/user/QuezcatoL/media/Baldr012_zps271dd9d2.jpg.html
There's a lot of very good reasons to make odd or eccentric choices. BUT, this is very important, from a pure game play perspective, master one thing before you try another. So if say you want to dual wield scimitars, or long swords, or whatever; start with two pips in your weapon of choice and two in dual wielding. Then add to the weapon or dual wield until both are maxed out. Don't be distracted by anything until you've finished that. By the math of it, this is BY FAR the most effective thing to do.
Now obviously, you may have role playing reasons why you want two different weapons early on, or maybe you consider a missile weapon a requirement. And that's fine; its your character and your game, do what seems most cool and fun for you.
But the math will always favor maxing out one thing before worrying about any other. In a balanced party, you will have other characters to specialize in other weapons, like missile or smashing (like a mace or club).
As others have mentioned, the basic math of it isn't hard, but it is opposite of many other game systems. Thaco starts at 20 and goes down as it gets better. Armor class starts at 10 and goes down as it gets better. "to hit" rolls are derived from a 20 sided die roll, so each improvement of one is a 5% increase in accuracy.
The most confusing thing is that weapon plusses are added to the hit roll; so they are displayed as LOWERING your Thaco. Yeah I know, it makes more sense in PNP, but on the computer each plus lowers your Thaco.
This all reminds me of the excellent BGII mod NPC Yasraena, a dual-wielding Drow who nearly has 5* proficiencies all across the board. A little OP you might think as you get her right near the start of the game but her voice acting, graphics etc. are so good I can excuse it. She's gone for good if she leaves the party and won't use any other weapons other than those she starts with so those are some small disadvantages I guess.
The basic calculation is D20 + Effects + Target's Armor
D20, is a 20 sided dice, a random number between 1 and 20.
Effects, there can be some effects that increase or decrese your hit rolls, technically Magic weapons do this, but they're in BG listed as lowering the THAC0 rather than making your hit rolls higher...
Target's Armor, the Armor Class, AC, of the target gets directly added to the hit roll, if it is over 0, it helps you in hitting it, if it's below 0, it lowers the roll.
Now, with all that calculated, the result then gets compared to your THAC0, if the roll is higher than your THAC0, you hit.
Edit: Well, You can place more points in Two Weapon Style, it will reduce the penalties.
As you can see he duals with a sword and axe, although I guess he could just use it for chopping firewood come to think of it... Anyway, he duals in MY adventures.
Yasraena fights with two short-swords so it was just my (bad) luck that I chose two different types of weapon to wield at once.
That said, a melee warrior type who cannot wear armour with only 12 Dex might make your life quite difficult... Some of the endgame stuff really do hit rather hard. Unless you plan to dual-class your kensai into a mage at some stage, in which case he can use spells to provide the protection he otherwise lacks.
I remember in Avernum, it was a no-brainer to put all my skill points into long-swords if I intended to use long swords, or halberds for halberds etc. So I'd ended up with a sword-master of exceptional skill, who does not know how to swing an axe/hammer... or which end to point a spear (the sharp one!)
I am assuming you started with some sort of a fighter. Dual-classing is probably only worth the effort if you intend to continue into BG 2 with the same character. If you do that, then I personally think choosing Mage would be the stronger option.
I am no expert here, but I'd imagine that Thief ===> Fighter is much stronger than Fighter ===> Thief. Since Fighters are more combat focused. Either way you'd end up with somebody who can take and dish out plenty of damage, and potentially deliver a deadly first strike via backstab.
If you went Fighter ===> Mage. You'd essentially end up (in the long run) with a very powerful spellcaster who is not as squishy as most mages thanks to his previous fighter training.
ps: Oh and I am really glad you seem to be playing the game the 'right way'... lol I maybe biased on this issue though.
Dualling to fighter is very suboptimal. Fighters are very front-loaded. Past level 13 they gain very little (until HLAs, at least) and there is not that big a difference between a level 9 fighter and a level 13 one. Casters, on the other hand, only grow stronger the more levels they have. The same is true for thieves, albeit on a more modest scale. Barring silly builds, where a multiclass would serve better, a fighter->thief will be stronger than a thief->fighter, since the latter will have crippled thief skills while the former will have essentially the full benefit of the fighter levels. The former will also have more HP, since fighters roll a larger die and get the full effect of CON. However, you only roll HP and gain bonuses from CON for the first 9–10 character levels, so a thief who duals to fighter above level 9 gains a comparatively tiny amount of HP out of it.
I've posted this in another topic, but it might help you understand THAC0 a bit more. Basically if you can add and subtract, and know your multiples of 5, then THAC0 should not be too much of a problem to understand:
"First, when understanding how things get hit in this game, you need to understand that you'll be invisibly rolling a 20 sided die. This means that every point on that die represents a 5% chance to hit (100% / 20pts = 5% / 1pt). This gets modified by the armor your foe has, strength that you have, and weapon that you use.
Say you have a THAC0 of 20. This means without any modifiers, to hit a target that has an AC of 0, you need to roll ABOVE a natural critical (20) to hit. This means you would have a 5% chance of hitting a target with an AC of 0 (0 * 5% = 0%; but you will always have at least a 5% chance to hit due to rolling a critical hit). Every point into AC that is ether above or below the AC of 0 will ether increase or decrease your base percentage chance to hit by 5%. If a target has 1 AC, then add 5 % to your base, if they have -1 AC, then subtract 5% (again: minimum percent chance to hit is 5%, never 0; and maximum is 95%, never 100). This means, with THAC0 of 20, you will have a 50% chance to hit a target with 10 AC (0% + 50% = 50%). In another example where you have a THAC0 of 6, your base chance to hit will be 70% (14 possible chances to hit * 5% = 70%). Then you run into a target with -10 AC, so your overall chance to hit that target will be 20% (70% - 50% = 20%). This is why less AC is always the best AC you can have. So a Mage with 10 AC base, that uses lvl 1 mage armor, is decreasing the chance something will hit them by 20% (10 base AC - 6 Magic Armor = 4 * 5% = 20%).
Modifiers from weapons and strength increase your chances to hit as well. Again, each point increases your chance to hit by 5%. So a +1 sword and a +1 to-hit strength modifier would increase chance to hit in the previous example of a 20 THAC0 against a 10AC target from 50% to 60% chance to hit.
Now a [Level 1 Character] has a base THAC0 of 20 (5% chance to hit). In the beginning of the game, you'll be facing targets that have about 8 to 10 AC. So your base chance to hit something in the beginning of the game will be between 40% for an 8 AC target to 50% chance to hit for a 10 AC target - very low. If you've ever played XCOM, you will understand how low this value is. With 18 strength (THAC0 +1 bonus), your [Character's] chance to hit will be increased to 45% (8 AC) to 55% (10 AC) - still very low. Compare this with [a Character] who has 18 in dex and is using a bow (THAC0 +2 bonus), and you will have increased your chance to hit to 50% (8 AC) to 60% (10 AC) - which is manageable, but not the best (75% chance to hit would be a nice, general percentage chance to have). If [you are attacking from stealth], and the +4 THAC0 bonus is correct (which is a +20% chance to hit), then you will have, with 18 strength mind you, a 65% (8 AC) to 75% (10 AC) chance to hit a target - a lot better [...]
Overall though, this is also the reason why ranged weapons usually outclass melee weapons in the early game for all classes since all classes start with 20 THAC0. "
At the beginning of the game, Fighters might have a bit easier time with melee because they can specialize in their weapon of choice. So against beginning enemies with 10 DC, and with 18 strength, you will have a 60% chance to hit instead of 55% with all other classes with 18 strength. Mind you this is equal to the 60% chance to hit with a ranged weapon that other classes get.
Note that you have to role ABOVE your THAC0 to hit. Not at it or higher. So dual wielding will have a -2 THAC0 penalty to your mainhand and -4 to your offhand. This means, whatever your chances to hit before dualwielding, subtract 10% off your main and 20% off your offhand.
Also it appears 'Dark viper' likes to play dress ups in his free time?
Also, I wasn't clear that MagikGimp had understood that each attack rolls seperately - so if you have two attacks with your main hand and one with your off hand, you roll 2 x D20 and do the numbers at your main hand THAC0, and then another D20 and work it out for your off hand THAC0.
Also also, for future builds it's worth noting that Dexterity directly influences your own AC, so having that higher makes it less likely your opponents will hit you with their swords and maces. Important for melee folk that can't wear armour.