I've never heard of any penalty for switching alignments other than losing powers for certain classes like Paladin, Barbarian, Monk, etc.
It was a rule in ye olde days. 3e eliminated XP penalties for alignment changes. Everyone said "good riddance", and that was that. I am going to get a hold of a 2e rulebook so I can find out the exact specifics.
Chaotic and lawful don't exist irl, they are inventions of DnD and only exist in DnD.
While it's true that there likely isn't a fundamental force of Law or Chaos in the universe, real life situations are still quite apt ways to describe the "tenets" of the alignments.
Its like forcing a square peg into a round hole... doable but such rough pigeonholing is going to be a very poor representation of reality... akin to trying to apply the concept of the 4 elements to reality via alchemy.
@taltamir Trying to ascribe alignments to real life people or organizations would be a hassle, not because the alignment system isn't good, but because we as people can't observe the ebb and flow of the universe to comprehend a real life person's actions in that way. Alignment is cosmic and huge, something the players and DM only observe so clearly because they are miles above the game world. Interesting to think about.
While it's true that there likely isn't a fundamental force of Law or Chaos in the universe, real life situations are still quite apt ways to describe the "tenets" of the alignments. How any legal system that is written down could be considered "Chaotic" is beyond me, though @the_spyder did admit that some examples they've been using haven't been the best.
The US legal system has evolved more or less at random. Laws are put on the books not through any logical or conceptual method but more 'as things happen'. There are laws on the books that directly contradict each other. There are laws that were put on the books merely because they seemed like a good idea at the time. In one state there is actually a law that states that it is against the law to wear plaid on Thursdays in the park (or something to that effect). It is an extremely chaotic system.
Also the adversarial nature of the courts is also very chaotic. Although there are processes and rules to follow, they too are pretty much put together as situations arose. And the fact that the winner is often the one who can make the best case rather than the person who is innocent or guilty is a very chaotic way of doing things.
Ask any good defense attorney and they will tell you that the US legal system is anything but an ordered system.
@ taltamir - Who says "Lawful" and "Chaotic" don't exist? The definition of Entropy is chaos and the breakdown of matter. In other words "Chaos" incarnate. But even as a philosophy, both absolutely exist. Are they a bit more literally written out in the rules for D&D than they play out irl? Sure. But like most things in the game, they are carved down into very basic concepts and ideas. and they are subject to very literal interpretations necessary to a game played by people other than geniuses and philosophers.
Weeeeeeeeeee lawful versus chaotic discussions are fun:
Ok @the_spyder: I don't think they are quite as chaotic as you make them out to be, after all there are numerous laws at state and local level (and probably some federal laws as well) which while on the books are rarely enforced just because they've never been taken off the books. Adultery is usually one of the big ones here.
The problem when most people view law is that they view it as a concrete rigid system, which it is not. It is living and breathing as you and I so that it can continue to function in the long term. In the short term its very rigid etc, but the law must be able to adapt.
When it comes to characters however, its what you view is the best recourse for attempting your goals. If you think in an ideal world you should try to accomplish your goals by changing laws against slavery whatever from the inside, Courts, appeals, trying to to pass new laws; and only if all else fails turning to other means you are prolly lawful good or neutral. If however, you believe in the faster method, doing whatever you feel is necessary (killing off slavers or the proponents of slavery, etc) you're more likely to be chaotic.
Lawful characters usually have a more long-term, change over time that will stick, viewpoint of the world, and chaotic characters are more likely to look for immediate short term change.
I found the XP penalty thing. From 2e DMG, page 64 through 66:
Effects of Changing Alignment Although player characters can change alignment, it is not something that should be approached lightly, since there are serious consequences. When a character changes alignment, he does more than just change his attitudes. He is altering his perception of the world and his relationship to it. Much of what he learned previously was flavored by his alignment. When the philosophical foundations of his life change, the character discovers that he must relearn things he thought he knew. There are two possible effects of changing alignment, depending on the situation and circumstances of the change. The first results in no penalty. This effect only should be used when the player and the DM mutually agree that the character's alignment should be changed to improve the play of the game. Most often this occurs with low-level characters. The player character's alignment may prove to be incompatible with the rest of the party. A player character may simply be more interesting for everyone if his alignment were different. Inexperienced players may select an alignment without fully understanding its ramifications. Discovering they simply do not like the alignment, they may ask to change. Such changes must be made with mutual agreement. As DM, try to accommodate the desires of your players. In the second type of voluntary change, the case cannot be made that the alignment change would be for the good of the game. This generally involves more established characters who have been played according to one alignment for some time. Here, the effects of alignment change are severe and noticeable. The instant a character voluntarily changes alignment, the experience point cost to gain the next level (or levels in the case of multi-class characters) is doubled. To determine the number of experience points needed to gain the next level (and only the next level), double the number of experience points listed on the appropriate Experience Levels table. For example, Delsenora the mage began the game neutral good. However, as she adventured, she regularly supported the downtrodden and the oppressed, fighting for their rights and their place in society. About the time she reached 5th level, it was clear to the DM that Delsenora was behaving more as a lawful good character and he enforced an alignment change. Normally, a mage needs 40,000 experience points--20,000 points beyond 5th level--to reach 6th level. Delsenora must earn 40,000 additional experience points, instead of the normal 20,000. Every two experience points counts as one toward advancement. Delsenora started the adventure with 20,000 experience points. At its conclusion, the DM awarded her 5,300 points, bringing her total to 25,300. Instead of needing just 14,700 points to reach the next level, she now needs 34,700 because of her alignment change! If an alignment change is involuntary, the doubled experience penalty is not enforced. Instead, the character earns no experience whatever until his former alignment is regained. This assumes, of course, that the character wants to regain his former alignment. If the character decides that the new alignment isn't so bad after all, he begins earning experience again, but the doubling penalty goes into effect. The player does not have to announce this decision. If the DM feels the character has resigned himself to the situation, that is sufficient. For example, Beornhelm the Ranger carelessly dons a helm of alignment change and switches to chaotic evil alignment--something he didn't want to do! Exerting its influence over him, the helm compels Beornhelm to commit all manner of destructive acts. Although unable to resist, Beornhelm keeps looking for an opportunity to escape the accursed helm. Finally, after several misadventures, he cleverly manages to trick an evil mage into removing the helm, at which point he is restored to his previous alignment. He gains no experience from the time he dons the helm to the time he removes it (though the DM may grant a small award if Beornhelm's plan was particularly ingenious). If Beornhelm had chosen not to trick the mage but to work with him, the change would immediately be considered a player choice. From that point on Beornhelm would earn experience, but he would have to earn twice as much to reach the next experience level. A character can change alignment any number of times. If more than one change occurs per level, however, the severity of the penalty increases. (The character is obviously suffering from severe mental confusion, akin to a modern-day personality crisis.) When a character makes a second or subsequent alignment change at a given level, all experience points earned toward the next level are immediately lost. The character must still earn double the normal experience. Delsenora drifted into lawful good. Now she finds lawful good too restrictive. She is confused. She doesn't know what she believes in. Her head hurts. The character reverts to her earlier neutral good habits. Bedeviled by indecision, she loses the 5,300 experience points she had already gained and now has to earn 40,000 to achieve 6th level!
Comments
Trying to ascribe alignments to real life people or organizations would be a hassle, not because the alignment system isn't good, but because we as people can't observe the ebb and flow of the universe to comprehend a real life person's actions in that way. Alignment is cosmic and huge, something the players and DM only observe so clearly because they are miles above the game world. Interesting to think about.
Also the adversarial nature of the courts is also very chaotic. Although there are processes and rules to follow, they too are pretty much put together as situations arose. And the fact that the winner is often the one who can make the best case rather than the person who is innocent or guilty is a very chaotic way of doing things.
Ask any good defense attorney and they will tell you that the US legal system is anything but an ordered system.
@ taltamir - Who says "Lawful" and "Chaotic" don't exist? The definition of Entropy is chaos and the breakdown of matter. In other words "Chaos" incarnate. But even as a philosophy, both absolutely exist. Are they a bit more literally written out in the rules for D&D than they play out irl? Sure. But like most things in the game, they are carved down into very basic concepts and ideas. and they are subject to very literal interpretations necessary to a game played by people other than geniuses and philosophers.
Ok @the_spyder: I don't think they are quite as chaotic as you make them out to be, after all there are numerous laws at state and local level (and probably some federal laws as well) which while on the books are rarely enforced just because they've never been taken off the books. Adultery is usually one of the big ones here.
The problem when most people view law is that they view it as a concrete rigid system, which it is not. It is living and breathing as you and I so that it can continue to function in the long term. In the short term its very rigid etc, but the law must be able to adapt.
When it comes to characters however, its what you view is the best recourse for attempting your goals. If you think in an ideal world you should try to accomplish your goals by changing laws against slavery whatever from the inside, Courts, appeals, trying to to pass new laws; and only if all else fails turning to other means you are prolly lawful good or neutral. If however, you believe in the faster method, doing whatever you feel is necessary (killing off slavers or the proponents of slavery, etc) you're more likely to be chaotic.
Lawful characters usually have a more long-term, change over time that will stick, viewpoint of the world, and chaotic characters are more likely to look for immediate short term change.
From 2e DMG, page 64 through 66: