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Underpowered Party

EkitalEkital Member Posts: 19
in Archive (General Discussion)
I have gotten slightly bored of playing BG with a standard powerful party and decided to kick it up a notch by playing only the worst of the worst classes ONLY

I decided to create this 4-man party for the job

Wizard Slayer
Jester
Shapeshifter
Beast Master

I am planning on running this party through both BG1 and BG2.

Has anyone ever tried this? Any tips are welcome ;p

Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    edited July 2013
    If you are feeling insufficiently challenged, I STRONGLY recommend using some of the more difficult mods. They enhance the experience far more than an "underpowered" party. Easy enemies are easy even if you're just clubbing them to death, won't be much of a change even with your suggested setup :P

    Above all, give Sword Coast Stratagems a try. It's an amazing mod, and available both for BG1 and BG2!
  • EkitalEkital Member Posts: 19
    Lord_Tansheron said:

    If you are feeling insufficiently challenged, I STRONGLY recommend using some of the more difficult mods. They enhance the experience far more than an "underpowered" party. Easy enemies are easy even if you're just clubbing the to death :P

    Above all, give Sword Coast Stratagems a try. It's an amazing mod, and available both for BG1 and BG2!

    Done that already. I think this will be harder than playing normally with SCS installed.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    I don't think so. You can literally beat vanilla with unleveled characters, it's been done. Nothing is remotely dangerous or hard in any way.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    edited July 2013
    Jester is far too good to be in that party. :P

    Regardless, sounds like it'll make for a hilarious playthrough. Enjoy.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    Ekital I think this is an awesome challenge! I've never quite used the party you propose, but I have definitely used underpowered characters on occasion, and I always feel satisfied with the experience. You will have to be creative with your tactics, use your abilities and inventory to their fullest, and plan carefully!

    The other thing I often enjoy is playing an overpowered party through simultaneously. Just to see the difference in capability and results. Like how many battles take longer, and much more engaged your spell casters have to be.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Beastmasters aren't weak though...they just have to use less frequently used, but perfectly viable gear choices from other classes. And their spell-casting is actually the strongest of any single class ranger. (their lack of armor can be easily offset by simply taking advantage of their buffed stealth to sneak into melee range before clubbering the enemy to death. They're truly nasty in BG2 equipped with the Gnasher and Blackblood for most enemies or the staff of the ram for +4 and above stuff).

    And the jester is stronger then vanilla bard, because bard song is useless...while jester song is actually marginally useful (and really damn nice after 15+). If the jester had it's proper penalties...maybe....but it's easily more powerful then the current vanilla bard as implemented.

    Wizard slayer isn't really weak either...they just boring....they can't use a lot of fancy extras any other fighter could, but due their implementation, aren't actually penalized that badly...sure their "bonuses" are garbage...but they're still a fighter that can wield any magical weapons or armor..and that's really all they need (basically just forces you to use shields to make up for lack of immunities from other equipment).


    Shapeshifter is about the only class that is truly disadvantaged, but only in mid to late BG2.
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    i agree with @zanathkariashi, none of those kits are truly underpowered for bgee

    shapeshifters, being a single class druid, makes them the 2nd best divine casters (after Avengers) in the game. druids in bgee are pure awesome.

    jesters aren't as weak as vanilla bards, they actually have access to a lvl 5 spell straight from the get-go, with their chaos song

    wizard slayer's only disadvantage is the inability to use magic items and there aren't many (unlike in bg2 where magic items really make a difference)

    never played beastmaster so can't comment. if you really want to feel underpowered, i'd fill the party out (so you don't level too quickly, making the game easier) and use this team

    monk (poop at low levels)
    beastmaster (still not great)
    cleric (the worst of all the divine caster, but not actually a bad class)
    bounty hunter (reduced thieving points, with traps that probably can't be used, because you don't have enough points to invest in Setting Traps)
    vanilla bard
    ...another monk or vanilla bard

    certainly in SCS (with all the toughest conditions set), that'll be a struggle...enjoy!


  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    shapeshifter + jester will roflstomp this easy
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,344
    As has been said, vanilla BG is easy enough for any class or class combination to handle without much trouble. Add a laundry list of forbidden tactics though (no magic, no kiting, no potions, no abusing los etc) and you could still end up with a good challenge.
  • Twilight_FoxTwilight_Fox Member Posts: 448
    My suggestion is to use a 80 stat roll for each of them, something like:

    Wizard Slayer: 17/10/17/12/12/12 (the damage dealer)
    Jester: 10/17/10/16/10/17 (the mage)
    Shapeshifter: 13/13/13/10/16/15 (the healer)
    Beast Master: 15/14/15/10/16/10 (the tank)

    So you will have a bad damage dealer, a bad mage, a bad healer and a band tank and since there are only one pair of dexterity gauntlet you will have some hard time. But at the end of BG1 your team will be potent with the tomes and gauntlets. I am also playing this kind of game for now but with this setup:

    [The Lucky Bastards]

    Dwarven Defender, Dwarf: 17/16/17/10/10/10
    Priest of Talos, Gnome: 14/15/14/10/17/10
    Swashbuckler, Halfling: 14/17/14/10/9/16
    Illusionist, Gnome: 10/10/14/17/15/14

    The Dwarven Defender will have 17str/17dex/17con (+Gauntlets of Ogre Power), the Priest of Talos will have 15str/15dex/15con/18wis (+Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise), the Swashbuckler 17dex/10wis/17cha (+Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise) and the Illusionist 18int/16wis (+Gauntlets of Dexterity). So far, that a nice experience.
  • EkitalEkital Member Posts: 19
    I was personally thinking of placing several restrictions on all the characters.

    General rules:
    Insane difficulty only
    True Grandmastery Installed (BG2 Tweak pack)
    No Shapeshifter re-balancing (BG2 Tweak pack)
    No Wizard slayer range dispel (BG2 Fixpack)

    Beastmaster Specific:
    Cannot use the staff of ram
    Must be ran naked (No armor) through BG1

    Jester Specific:
    Cannot use Stoneskin
    Must use the single weapon fighting proficiency. (No Shield/Dual Wielding)

    Wizard Slayer Specific:
    No restrictions

    Shapeshifter:
    Completely Naked through BG1
    Cannot use Iron skin.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @Twilight_Fox why 80?
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited July 2013
    The beast master is still a fighter, so he will be able to solo BG1 and BG2 without ascension with the right gear and use of potions / scrolls.

    The shapeshifter is incredible strong at level 1-5 and he got druid spells for 5-13. Once he reaches the greater werewolf form he will destroy stuff until ToB where it will be useless.

    The bard is still an arcane caster and that way very powerful.

    Just like the beast master the wizard slayer is still a fighter so with a powerful armor and weapon he will do well even with all of his weaknesses.

    There is no class in the game that is underpowered, some are just vastly overpowered.

    The hardest challenge you could make without mods would probably be a mage group that aren't allowed to use spells.

    You can also make it a little bit more interesting and run a mage party that aren't allowed to memorize any spells. So the scrolls you pick up you are allowed to use. This would mean that you'll have to buy all scrolls you can find AND save the more powerful ones (Cloudkill) to the right fight. This means that you'll only have a few of certain scrolls so you have to think forward where the scrolls are, and in what fights to use them. You're not allowed to use any wands except sleep.
  • EkitalEkital Member Posts: 19
    SionIV said:

    The beast master is still a fighter, so he will be able to solo BG1 and BG2 without ascension with the right gear and use of potions / scrolls.

    The shapeshifter is incredible strong at level 1-5 and he got druid spells for 5-13. Once he reaches the greater werewolf form he will destroy stuff until ToB where it will be useless.

    The bard is still an arcane caster and that way very powerful.

    Just like the beast master the wizard slayer is still a fighter so with a powerful armor and weapon he will do well even with all of his weaknesses.

    There is no class in the game that is underpowered, some are just vastly overpowered.

    Wizard slayer has a lot of problems in late game BG2 due to subpar equipment. His dispel is actually pretty much useless.

    Shapeshifter will be run naked and will not use any armor in BG1/BG2 making him pretty useless until he gets greater werewolf.

    Jester will be the strongest out of the four and the only reason I actually even placed him in the party is due to Knock. Im thinking of placing more spell restrictions on him.

    Beastmaster will be weak in early-mid BG2 however he will be decent in the late game with the restrictions I placed on him.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited July 2013
    Ekital said:

    SionIV said:

    The beast master is still a fighter, so he will be able to solo BG1 and BG2 without ascension with the right gear and use of potions / scrolls.

    The shapeshifter is incredible strong at level 1-5 and he got druid spells for 5-13. Once he reaches the greater werewolf form he will destroy stuff until ToB where it will be useless.

    The bard is still an arcane caster and that way very powerful.

    Just like the beast master the wizard slayer is still a fighter so with a powerful armor and weapon he will do well even with all of his weaknesses.

    There is no class in the game that is underpowered, some are just vastly overpowered.

    Wizard slayer has a lot of problems in late game BG2 due to subpar equipment. His dispel is actually pretty much useless.

    Shapeshifter will be run naked and will not use any armor in BG1/BG2 making him pretty useless until he gets greater werewolf.

    Jester will be the strongest out of the four and the only reason I actually even placed him in the party is due to Knock. Im thinking of placing more spell restrictions on him.

    Beastmaster will be weak in early-mid BG2 however he will be decent in the late game with the restrictions I placed on him.
    Wizard slayer can still do more than fine wth a good shield and an armor. He can reach decent AC and he'll do just as much damage as any other fighter. His MR isn't much to cheer about nor is his interrupt but he IS still a fighter and even a weak fighter is strong in this game.

    The shapeshifter is a pure druid that got acces to all those nice spells including a very powerful form at low level and greater werewolf is awesome for end game SoA. The druid won't be in close combat so with smart gameplay he'll be in werewolf form up to level 5 and after that stand behind and throw spells

    The jester is alright and his arcane spells will make him strong.

    The beast master is quite powerful early-mid in BG2 because of some awesome clubs in trademeet and the shadow dragon armor which he can use. He is just a little bit weaker than a normal ranger.

    With the right equipment and knowing the game and not playing like a fork, you'll easily beat anything with this party. None of these are WEAK and you could solo the game with any of them, so having two fighters a druid and an arcane caster in your party will never be weak.

    [Edited]:

    Wizard slayer :

    2* Longsword (BG1)
    5* Flail (BG2)

    Beast master :

    2* Crossbow
    2* Staff
  • EkitalEkital Member Posts: 19
    SionIV said:

    Ekital said:

    SionIV said:

    The beast master is still a fighter, so he will be able to solo BG1 and BG2 without ascension with the right gear and use of potions / scrolls.

    The shapeshifter is incredible strong at level 1-5 and he got druid spells for 5-13. Once he reaches the greater werewolf form he will destroy stuff until ToB where it will be useless.

    The bard is still an arcane caster and that way very powerful.

    Just like the beast master the wizard slayer is still a fighter so with a powerful armor and weapon he will do well even with all of his weaknesses.

    There is no class in the game that is underpowered, some are just vastly overpowered.

    Wizard slayer has a lot of problems in late game BG2 due to subpar equipment. His dispel is actually pretty much useless.

    Shapeshifter will be run naked and will not use any armor in BG1/BG2 making him pretty useless until he gets greater werewolf.

    Jester will be the strongest out of the four and the only reason I actually even placed him in the party is due to Knock. Im thinking of placing more spell restrictions on him.

    Beastmaster will be weak in early-mid BG2 however he will be decent in the late game with the restrictions I placed on him.
    Wizard slayer can still do more than fine wth a good shield and an armor. He can reach decent AC and he'll do just as much damage as any other fighter. His MR isn't much to cheer about nor is his interrupt but he IS still a fighter and even a weak fighter is strong in this game.

    The shapeshifter is a pure druid that got acces to all those nice spells including a very powerful form at low level and greater werewolf is awesome for end game SoA. The druid won't be in close combat so with smart gameplay he'll be in werewolf form up to level 5 and after that stand behind and throw spells

    The jester is alright and his arcane spells will make him strong.

    The beast master is quite powerful early-mid in BG2 because of some awesome clubs in trademeet and the shadow dragon armor which he can use. He is just a little bit weaker than a normal ranger.

    With the right equipment and knowing the game and not playing like a fork, you'll easily beat anything with this party. None of these are WEAK and you could solo the game with any of them, so having two fighters a druid and an arcane caster in your party will never be weak.
    The whole idea is to use the restrictions which were meant to be placed on the class without resorting to bugs like using red scale armor on a druid. Most of the Druid offensive spells can only be cast outdoors anyway which means they'll be useless in BG2.
  • Twilight_FoxTwilight_Fox Member Posts: 448
    @FinneousPJ,

    I don't know, that feel 'legit'. 75 seems a little bit too low for a bhaal spawn and 85 a little bit too close of a 'good' character. Lets take a dwarf warrior for exemple:

    15/15/15/10/10/10 : a little bit too weak
    17/16/17/10/10/10 : seems legit
    18/17/19/08/08/15 : too close to a good char

    Nothing more than a feeling.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    Ekital said:

    SionIV said:

    Ekital said:

    SionIV said:

    The beast master is still a fighter, so he will be able to solo BG1 and BG2 without ascension with the right gear and use of potions / scrolls.

    The shapeshifter is incredible strong at level 1-5 and he got druid spells for 5-13. Once he reaches the greater werewolf form he will destroy stuff until ToB where it will be useless.

    The bard is still an arcane caster and that way very powerful.

    Just like the beast master the wizard slayer is still a fighter so with a powerful armor and weapon he will do well even with all of his weaknesses.

    There is no class in the game that is underpowered, some are just vastly overpowered.

    Wizard slayer has a lot of problems in late game BG2 due to subpar equipment. His dispel is actually pretty much useless.

    Shapeshifter will be run naked and will not use any armor in BG1/BG2 making him pretty useless until he gets greater werewolf.

    Jester will be the strongest out of the four and the only reason I actually even placed him in the party is due to Knock. Im thinking of placing more spell restrictions on him.

    Beastmaster will be weak in early-mid BG2 however he will be decent in the late game with the restrictions I placed on him.
    Wizard slayer can still do more than fine wth a good shield and an armor. He can reach decent AC and he'll do just as much damage as any other fighter. His MR isn't much to cheer about nor is his interrupt but he IS still a fighter and even a weak fighter is strong in this game.

    The shapeshifter is a pure druid that got acces to all those nice spells including a very powerful form at low level and greater werewolf is awesome for end game SoA. The druid won't be in close combat so with smart gameplay he'll be in werewolf form up to level 5 and after that stand behind and throw spells

    The jester is alright and his arcane spells will make him strong.

    The beast master is quite powerful early-mid in BG2 because of some awesome clubs in trademeet and the shadow dragon armor which he can use. He is just a little bit weaker than a normal ranger.

    With the right equipment and knowing the game and not playing like a fork, you'll easily beat anything with this party. None of these are WEAK and you could solo the game with any of them, so having two fighters a druid and an arcane caster in your party will never be weak.
    The whole idea is to use the restrictions which were meant to be placed on the class without resorting to bugs like using red scale armor on a druid. Most of the Druid offensive spells can only be cast outdoors anyway which means they'll be useless in BG2.
    The druid was never powerful because of his offensive magic. He is powerful because of his summon spells and let me tell you, Conjure fire and earth elementals will carry you a long way in this game along with insect plague which you can use in indoors.
  • EkitalEkital Member Posts: 19
    SionIV said:

    Ekital said:

    SionIV said:

    Ekital said:

    SionIV said:

    The beast master is still a fighter, so he will be able to solo BG1 and BG2 without ascension with the right gear and use of potions / scrolls.

    The shapeshifter is incredible strong at level 1-5 and he got druid spells for 5-13. Once he reaches the greater werewolf form he will destroy stuff until ToB where it will be useless.

    The bard is still an arcane caster and that way very powerful.

    Just like the beast master the wizard slayer is still a fighter so with a powerful armor and weapon he will do well even with all of his weaknesses.

    There is no class in the game that is underpowered, some are just vastly overpowered.

    Wizard slayer has a lot of problems in late game BG2 due to subpar equipment. His dispel is actually pretty much useless.

    Shapeshifter will be run naked and will not use any armor in BG1/BG2 making him pretty useless until he gets greater werewolf.

    Jester will be the strongest out of the four and the only reason I actually even placed him in the party is due to Knock. Im thinking of placing more spell restrictions on him.

    Beastmaster will be weak in early-mid BG2 however he will be decent in the late game with the restrictions I placed on him.
    Wizard slayer can still do more than fine wth a good shield and an armor. He can reach decent AC and he'll do just as much damage as any other fighter. His MR isn't much to cheer about nor is his interrupt but he IS still a fighter and even a weak fighter is strong in this game.

    The shapeshifter is a pure druid that got acces to all those nice spells including a very powerful form at low level and greater werewolf is awesome for end game SoA. The druid won't be in close combat so with smart gameplay he'll be in werewolf form up to level 5 and after that stand behind and throw spells

    The jester is alright and his arcane spells will make him strong.

    The beast master is quite powerful early-mid in BG2 because of some awesome clubs in trademeet and the shadow dragon armor which he can use. He is just a little bit weaker than a normal ranger.

    With the right equipment and knowing the game and not playing like a fork, you'll easily beat anything with this party. None of these are WEAK and you could solo the game with any of them, so having two fighters a druid and an arcane caster in your party will never be weak.
    The whole idea is to use the restrictions which were meant to be placed on the class without resorting to bugs like using red scale armor on a druid. Most of the Druid offensive spells can only be cast outdoors anyway which means they'll be useless in BG2.
    The druid was never powerful because of his offensive magic. He is powerful because of his summon spells and let me tell you, Conjure fire and earth elementals will carry you a long way in this game along with insect plague which you can use in indoors.
    Yeah but you get insect plague at level 9. Also this isn't a powergaming run if it was I would be running a naked fighter and easily beat the game. The point is to use the kits the way they were meant to be played not the optimal way. It's meant to be a hard run not a run where you abuse every little thing.

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    I can understand that if you're going to put restrictions on yourself. My point was that it isn't a hard run because you picked those classes, it's a hard run because you restrict yourself otherwise. And even a mage party with divine casters and thiefs can be a hard run if you restrict yourself.
  • Twilight_FoxTwilight_Fox Member Posts: 448
    With these restrictions, it will not be a piece of cake Ekital, I wish you good luck.

    To the others, try this 80 stat roll challenge if you dare;

    [The Holy Dogooders]

    18/10/14/08/13/17 : Male Undead Hunter
    - Can be a good frontliner and archer with the Gauntlets of Dexterity in early game. Greatsword + Bow.

    12/16/14/08/13/17 : Female Inquisitor
    - Can be a good archer in early game and a good frontliner with the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Staff + Bow.

    16/14/12/08/13/17 : Female Cavalier
    - Can be a good tank in early game with the right armor/shield/ring. Sword + Shield.

    14/16/12/08/17/13 : Male Priest of Helm
    - Can be a good tank in early game with the right armor/shield/ring. Mace + Shield.

    But only if you dare ;)
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Twilight_Fox said:

    @FinneousPJ,

    I don't know, that feel 'legit'. 75 seems a little bit too low for a bhaal spawn and 85 a little bit too close of a 'good' character. Lets take a dwarf warrior for exemple:

    15/15/15/10/10/10 : a little bit too weak
    17/16/17/10/10/10 : seems legit
    18/17/19/08/08/15 : too close to a good char

    Nothing more than a feeling.

    Well I can't agree.

    18/18/18/7/7/7
    18/18/18/9/8/9

    Will play exactly the same ;)
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited July 2013
    Ekital said:



    The whole idea is to use the restrictions which were meant to be placed on the class without resorting to bugs like using red scale armor on a druid. Most of the Druid offensive spells can only be cast outdoors anyway which means they'll be useless in BG2.

    There is one druid spell you can't cast indoors. Thats it. Call lightning in no way represents "most of the druid offensive spells" in BGEE or in BG2.

    Also druids were allowed to use Ankheg armour and the dragon scales because they are natural armours (they can use the shadow dragon armour, red dragon armour, white dragon armour but not the blue dragon armour). It was a design choice to allow them to use them but evidently not one that was consistent at all times.
    Ekital said:



    Shapeshifter will be run naked and will not use any armor in BG1/BG2 making him pretty useless until he gets greater werewolf.

    Since you are choosing not to use bracers (shapeshifters can use these normally) there is nothing stopping you from casting barkskin on yourself. Just make it its own hotkey. Its really not that big of a deal from an AC standpoint since you probably aren't going to be fighting up close outside of your werewolf form (outside of it you only get 1 APR). When you are out of spells you can turn into the werewolf form which at level 1 has -1 AC. Without using the dispel claw bug there is only so far the abilities of either werewolf form will carry you however.
    Post edited by elminster on
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    edited July 2013
    Ekital said:

    SionIV said:

    The beast master is still a fighter, so he will be able to solo BG1 and BG2 without ascension with the right gear and use of potions / scrolls.

    The shapeshifter is incredible strong at level 1-5 and he got druid spells for 5-13. Once he reaches the greater werewolf form he will destroy stuff until ToB where it will be useless.

    The bard is still an arcane caster and that way very powerful.

    Just like the beast master the wizard slayer is still a fighter so with a powerful armor and weapon he will do well even with all of his weaknesses.

    There is no class in the game that is underpowered, some are just vastly overpowered.

    Wizard slayer has a lot of problems in late game BG2 due to subpar equipment. His dispel is actually pretty much useless.

    Shapeshifter will be run naked and will not use any armor in BG1/BG2 making him pretty useless until he gets greater werewolf.

    Jester will be the strongest out of the four and the only reason I actually even placed him in the party is due to Knock. Im thinking of placing more spell restrictions on him.

    Beastmaster will be weak in early-mid BG2 however he will be decent in the late game with the restrictions I placed on him.
    wow you missed something man

    this guy was like yesterday soloing scsii bg ee with shapeshifter xd


    the only way i think of for you can up the challange is randomize items mod so you won't find varscona in 10th minute of the game etc.
  • mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292
    Let's be honest here. Baldur's Gate really isn't a particularly easy game. In fact, the game can be pretty brutal by today's standards if you're a first time player and aren't familiar with with D&D. It's just that everyone here has been playing this game for so long that it's impossible not to be good at it.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    @mylegbig: I agree. BG isn't easy to get into, and takes a while to master. Once you do, though, it's fairly easy to metagame into oblivion. That's why people made so many mods that increase the challenge level - obviously, those are meant for veteran players who've discovered all the neat tricks and techs ;)
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