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Barbarian vs. Dwarven Defender

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Comments

  • kansasbarbariankansasbarbarian Member Posts: 203
    Dual class for barbarian would be great.

    RAM021
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,471
    edited August 2013
    kamuizin said:

    @SharGuidesMyHand, i understand the precaution of being neutral in comparison of classes, but Barbarians are harmed in terms of advantages atm.

    Pure tank by the way is a work better made by Dwarven Defenders, followed by Barbarians (in reason of damage reduction). Remember that DDs have 12Hit dice also, just as Barbarians. Speed you get from boots of speed and the immunities from Barb Rage aren't as good as the ones from Berserker rage, the +4 str and con is the main benefit from their rage and even that disappear after a while (when you start to find girdles of giant strengh).

    It's true that you will eventually find items that will offset almost any character's disadvantages. But that's true of almost any character class, DDs and barbarians alike.

    The problem with that argument is,
    1. you have to wait until you find the item in question, which can sometimes be quite a long time into the game, and
    2. there may be a limited number of those items (perhaps only one) in the game, and if you use it on your character you can't give it to someone else who might also need it.

    Barbarians are not intended to be pure tanks, or a pure any one thing. They are versatile characters (maybe the most versatile class in the game IMO) for players who want to use a variety of weapons and tactics. For example, as a barbarian I can play as a 19 dext elf who specializes in bows, so I can be both a crack shot from long range and a magic-resistant melee fighter - I can't do that with the other 2 classes.

    Berserkers are for people who want a pure tank with little or no interest in ranged fighting. The berserker's rage gives them a few more spell immunities, but the extra strength that the barbarian gains gives them advantages in other situations, such as breaking open otherwise unopenable chests or doors when you don't have a thief handy (another example of the barbarian's offbeat versatility).

    DD's are for people whose main concern is taking physical damage. Much has been said over the "110% damage reduction" - aside from the fact that you will have to wait until the entire saga is almost over (assuming Beamdog even makes BG2) for that to happen, BG2 is largely predicated on thwarting magic. Personally, I would still rather have the advantages of a barbarian or berserker in BG2, and then just build up their AC (which is relatively easy) against the less pressing threat of physical damage.

    Having tried all 3 classes, the barbarian is still my favorite of all of them. I think they are the most well-rounded and can address the widest variety of situations across both games. The other 2 are better suited in certain situations but weaker in others.

    vladpen
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,471
    elminster said:

    Barbarians can certainly still hold their own here. I don't see a need to add anything to them in the next patch.

    Agreed, I think they are already very well-balanced as is. I think adding anything else would make them OP.

    Then again, if beamdog were intent on making the barbarian even more powerful, I wouldn't go out of my way to stop them. ;-)

  • kansasbarbariankansasbarbarian Member Posts: 203
    I just want a barb/thief.

    RAM021T2av
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
    edited August 2013
    Well @SharGuidesMyHand, maybe is just myself but i don't see error in my arguments, just arguments :)!

    You can take of items from the equation and DDs are going to be still better than barbarians, except in the first levels maybe, but any late comparison will be made with items, it's impossible to compare 2 lvl 20 characters and say "no, they didn't find anything in the game to equip".

    About Barbarian x berserker i have nothing to argue about them here, they have some differences that are discussed in another thread.

    DD reach 4 **** in Axes and War Hammers, unlike Barbarians, so in passive damage they make more damage than barbarians (until they active barb rage that has a limited use). 110% dmg resistance doesn't take so long as you believe, specially if you import your characters from BG. You can reach 2.950.000+ xp leaving spellhold in BG2 for example, what will give you acess to HLAs. The passive damage resistance from DDs grow about the same speed than Barbarians.

    About magic damage, DDs and Barbarians have the same problem, and while Barbarians got some immunities from barb rage (what is good), DDs got +2 saving throw from defensive stance, which isn't so good as immunities but do the job at later levels, specially in reason of Dwarven saving throws being better against magic than any other class (except gnomes i believe).

    By the way, i love play as barbarian also, but i face the truth, atm barbarians are nerfed in comparison to DDs, and something should be done in favor of barbarians. Dual class restriction removal is something very simple to do that would make a huge difference, add dual-class possibility to barbarians would be awesome as i see (and maybe, just maybe, multi-class). If the dual or multi class table can't support another class just change barbarians into a warrior kit and i would be good with it (and by extra we would gain a space in the previous place barbarian class were to add another class).

    Ps: If comes to that and BG2 EE keep as a dream, people will eventually mod these new classes to old BG i believe, that's not a big problem at all.

    RAM021vladpen
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,981
    kamuizin said:



    About magic damage, DDs and Barbarians have the same problem, and while Barbarians got some immunities from barb rage (what is good), DDs got +2 saving throw from defensive stance, which isn't so good as immunities but do the job at later levels, specially in reason of Dwarven saving throws being better against magic than any other class (except gnomes i believe)

    Dwarves and halflings get "shorty" bonuses to their saves vs death, which is something gnomes don't get. They all get the same bonuses vs spells.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,981
    edited August 2013
    kamuizin said:

    By the way, i love play as barbarian also, but i face the truth, atm barbarians are nerfed in comparison to DDs, and something should be done in favor of barbarians. Dual class restriction removal is something very simple to do that would make a huge difference, add dual-class possibility to barbarians would be awesome as i see (and maybe, just maybe, multi-class). If the dual or multi class table can't support another class just change barbarians into a warrior kit and i would be good with it (and by extra we would gain a space in the previous place barbarian class were to add another class).

    Barbarians aren't nerfed at all. They are just as powerful as they always were. Now there just happens to be a new kid on the block who can challenge them on slashing/piercing/crushing/missile damage resistance. In any case I think both classes have their own benefits/weaknesses.

    Post edited by elminster on
  • blackchimesblackchimes Member Posts: 323

    I just want a barb/thief.

    There is an element of BG2 tweaks that lets you dual from Barbarians and Wild Mages.

    elminstermjsRAM021
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited August 2013
    Actually.....DD are overpowered and if anything happens, there needs to be some blanket and long overdue nerfs to several kits, not just them.

    Nerf the immunity lists for all the rages to only block sleep, confusion, charm/dom, +4 resistance to hold and paralyze, and block 1 fear spell. (that's currently the only thing wrong with the barb, everything else is actually legit).

    Flip the berserker's ac bonus into a penalty like it's supposed to be and add a 10% chance per round to go fully berserk for 3 rounds while enraged, disable all spell-casting/thief skills while enrage, and increase winded penalty to -3 hit/damage/ac and prevent further rages until it expires, At minimum. Preventing healing while enraged and putting off instant death effects until the rage ends would also be a nice addition (might be possible to use a modified version of the time stop effect to give the appropriate mechanics).

    DD needs to be rooted by DS, and reduce the DR to +25%. Replace hardiness with a improved DS that changes the DR to +50%, sets MR to 50%, and grants +20% of max hp as temp HP for the duration (like the temp hp gained from Aid, rather then the berserker temp hp), in addition to other normal benefits.

    And of course, limiting all fighter kits to ** max (though I might be willing to allow exception to the WS since they're completely inferior to the vanilla fighter even with the ability to GM, as currently implemented).

    Would tidy up the fighter kits quite nicely.

    Fighters would no longer be obsolete since only they could GM.

    Kensai would still muder everything in melee better then anyone else.

    Barbs would have their proper immunity list.

    Berserkers would actually have something resembling a penalty, and no longer become immune to damn near everything.

    And DD would still the undisputed Tank of tanks (discounting multi-duals of course), and even gain a slight buff vs magic attacks around TOB, but without any of this easy immortal shenanigans.

    And the wizard slayer would still be completely worthless, as currently implemented.

    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
    reedmilfam
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    edited August 2013
    @ZanathKariashi
    You have a tendency to try and turn threads into a discussion about what should be done to change or rebalance every kit in the game, even when that's not what the thread is about. Be aware of that tendency--this thread has nothing to do with berserkers, nor any other fighter kit except Dwarven Defender and Barbarian; and in fact it's not even about whether the kits themselves are balanced or what needs to be changed about them, but rather a comparison of their advantages and weaknesses.

    I say this because, seeing it in numerous threads, it's starting to look like spam, which I know isn't your intention.

    RAM021vladpen
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited August 2013
    Just chiming in, since it looks like it's headed to the usual, "well because this OP BS got implemented, instead of fixing the problem, lets break something else instead" suggestions. Just trying to ensure someone interjects with a voice of reason, every once in awhile.


    I don't really mind the allowing Barb dual suggestion though, though it still doesn't address an apparent over-sight in the DD abilties (which is largely HOW a lot of these problems happened in the first place, best to nip them in the bud while they're still fresh, rather then letting a decade of tradition start breeding resistance to legit changes), since that's actually legit, if the dual-class in this game was so horribly over-restricted.

    T2av
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
    Just keep the matter about DDs and Barbs and that will be good @ZanathKariashi. No problem in list suggestions if they're based or used to point, argue or comment on advantages or penalities of DD or Barb kit.

    Use of other kits examples can be nice as parallel references, if not often and if isn't the sole argument of a post (otherwise you risk to draw the discussion to that class/kit).

    From what i experienced with both kits and what i saw here in this post, i still feel the DD stronger than a barbarian, not based solely on abilities, but in their use inside the game engine. An extra mov speed and immunity to backstab and all the bonus from barb rage, in Pen and Paper games can make wonders, but inside the game engine based on the engine artificial inteligence and specially with metagaming, Dwarven Defenders are better.

    A simple addition of dual class to barbarians could make some nice Barbarian/Mage combos. I played a barbarian/cleric a while ago and i like a lot that gameplay (modded addition of dual), and if possible in the future, a barbarian/druid would be wonderful also, both from power game and roleplay (i see easly a barbarian, someone linked with feral feelings and natural instincts, be more willing to turn his attentions to nature than magic or an civilized order of clerigy).

  • IrbisIrbis Member Posts: 49
    Hardness and Defence Stance doesn't stack. Plain DD with DS has 70% DR. Even with DoE he will have 90%.
    For DD to break the 100% he would need to go Dual Class into Thief and somehow take Jan armor.
    Sure 90% DR is still jaws breaking (Demi-liches and Golems has DR not much higher) but nowhere OP as some of you claim.
    Just my 2 cents.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,981
    edited December 2013
    Thread necro :)

    All of this was written up long before anyone (except for devs and beta testers) knew how BG2EE was going to handle Defensive Stance.

  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    @ZanathKariashi is the power gamer we deserve, but not the one we need right now. Because we can take it.

    RAM021
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    elminster said:


    I'm not sure what you mean about the brainwashed comment but I mean technically if you want to get all P&P I'm pretty sure dwarven defenders aren't supposed to be able to move from their spot while using defensive stance. The alignment is probably more of an oversight than anything.

    I'm brainwashed in the same way. Some things just stick. In my case, I'm absolutely certain that necromancers can't be good aligned, because in NWN, evil alignment was a requirement for the Pale Master prestige class. I know it's not the case in BG, but whenever someone brings up examples of class/alignment restrictions, my mind says "necromancers must be non-good".

    Other than that, it's a no contest for me. I use both Dwarven Defender and Barbarian in Black Pits, and they are in different roles, hence I'm not comparing them. The DD tanks and protects the casters, the Barbarian is a damage dealer who takes out enemy defenses (most likely the clerics and heavy hitters protecting the enemy caster). They are opposites to me - I use the Barbarian to attack the enemy counterpart of the DD's role, and the DD to protect my caster from the enemy counterpart to the Barbarian.

    KamigoroshiEudaemoniumvladpen
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    @KidCarnival - the idea of a Lawful Good Necromancer amuses me more than I'd be willing to admit.


    Like Mr Welch said in his/her "List of things Mr Welch is no longer allowed to do in an RPG"
    460. I'd better have a real good excuse for being a Necromancer if I'm Lawful Good.

    (for those who do not know this, look here http://theglen.livejournal.com/16735.html# (first 250, find the rest of 2200 rules in the links below)

    KamigoroshiDragonspearKidCarnivaljackjack
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
    After play with a dwarven defender, i have to say, that class really suck. From a matemathic perspective, they're better, but half speed during defensive stance... hell that take on the nerves so much that... AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!


    I didn't test a ring of free action in the DD to see if that would nulify the slow, i bet it don't but if it do, then DD is the better and no argue about that.

    vladpen
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,825
    @Kamuizin

    The question then, is whether or not its 50% of current or 50% of base. I.E. would the boots of speed mitigate the problem?

    RAM021
  • janisjanis Member Posts: 1
    I have just read all the opinions makes me want to add, the class is called Dw. Defender :) not Dw. Attacker :)? To me it speaks for itself as well as barbarian and his Rage

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,981
    Now there is a thread necro.

    EnialusMeliamneDragonspear
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
    janis said:

    I have just read all the opinions makes me want to add, the class is called Dw. Defender :) not Dw. Attacker :)? To me it speaks for itself as well as barbarian and his Rage

    you clearly didn't read all the posts with this affirmative.

    vladpen
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