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Dual classed yoshimo...

Hey there!

In my previous SoA playthrough I was going to have Jan in the party, so I thought "well, this is probably the game where yoshimo duals to fighter from the start". And he is actually quite effective that way ( he's basically a neutral version of Mazzy , with his short bow and katana specialisation).

On the other hand...

"ok, enemies are near, time to scout ! oh wait... he's a fighter now."

"what if we set a trap here! oh, he's a fighter now..."

And he says his famous quote "I'm great at avoidance" ... I'll tell you, it's hard to "avoid" when your stealth is disabled.

"Nothing dangerous, I would hope" ... he still says that, but now he's a bad ass frontliner. Makes no sense;


I know that we are free to dual class most of our npc's , but Yoshi is way more fun when he's a rogue.

Comments

  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,582
    Is it possible to dual class Yoshimo and still reach one level higher to gain your thieving abilities back?
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Depending on your setup and how you handle the most gratuitous sources of XP, very likely.

    Note that you can totally go for a more lightweight fighter configuration once you get your Rogue skills back; you don't have to wear plate. That way you can still stealth, but also enjoy fighter combat bonuses and the HP increase, which are really the biggest draw of the class anyway.

    Dualing into fighter also means you can snatch up those APR bonuses at level 9/13, and deal quite a bit more damage in regular melee than a Rogue ever could. And if you do want to backstab - you are just as well-suited for that as a regular Bounty Hunter.

    That is, of course, from a more objective, power-gamey point of view. RP-wise little Yoshi is certainly better suited to dance on the head of a pin than to throw himself into the front lines.
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,582

    Depending on your setup and how you handle the most gratuitous sources of XP, very likely.

    Note that you can totally go for a more lightweight fighter configuration once you get your Rogue skills back; you don't have to wear plate. That way you can still stealth, but also enjoy fighter combat bonuses and the HP increase, which are really the biggest draw of the class anyway.

    Dualing into fighter also means you can snatch up those APR bonuses at level 9/13, and deal quite a bit more damage in regular melee than a Rogue ever could. And if you do want to backstab - you are just as well-suited for that as a regular Bounty Hunter.

    That is, of course, from a more objective, power-gamey point of view. RP-wise little Yoshi is certainly better suited to dance on the head of a pin than to throw himself into the front lines.

    Yoshimo has always been something of a thorn in my side in BG2. He's a decent NPC, but he always seems like the weak link in my party. I'd much prefer to have Jan, who not only has adequate thieving skills but can also cast spells. But from an RP/storyline perspective, keeping Yoshimo seems like a necessity, so I usually grit my teeth and stick it out with him.

    I never seriously considered dualing him to a fighter because I figured I'd never realistically be able to get my thieving skills back, or it would be too late in the game to make a difference. But perhaps I missed the forest for the trees: maybe he would find a better niche in my party as a fighter, even without thieving skills?
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,582
    Awong124 said:

    I dual him right before he betrays me.

    Good one, LOL.
  • AstafasAstafas Member Posts: 448
    Is there by chance a mod that removes the betrayal? That would really be fantastic. I recall an exploit in order to keep Yoshi that worked early on, but that was addressed in one of the patches IIRC.
  • blackchimesblackchimes Member Posts: 323
    Awong124 said:

    I dual him right before he betrays me.

    Mage or Bard?
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460



    Mage or Bard?

    He can only dual into a fighter, so he becomes a THAC0 20 fighter with horrible saving throws and scrambled proficiency points (like all in darts and two handed style) but with 70+ hit points and such. For more fun, take off all of his items and send him commando style. Easy pickings.
  • mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292
    I only time I dualled him was in my first play through of the game. Man, the betrayal was bad enough, but even more so considering how much time I wasted trying to get his thieving abilities back.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    edited August 2013
    @Awong124 lol u can do that?!

    @mylegbig

    Yoshimo's betrayal hit me hard too in my first (current) playthrough. He had all the gear I had intended to give to Imoen, including Tuigun Bow, Ring of Danger Sense, Ring of Invisibility, a lot of special arrows, all my invisibility potions etc etc... Poor Imoen had to struggle outta Spelllhold almost naked.

    And my trap detection/scouting strategy degenerated into 'run really quickly around with Charname in Boots of Speed and hope no traps are lethal and he can get out of trouble quickly!'
  • BanexBanex Member Posts: 127
    Dee said:

    Awong124 said:

    I dual him right before he betrays me.

    We've decided to rewrite the villains in the game. You are the most evil, and Irenicus can no longer compete.
    So long as you haven't stuck him in the circus tent in the Promenade.

    "This isn't what was supposed to happen to me"-GAME OVER.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    I have never thought of dual-classing making sense in BG roleplay-wise, so I have never dualed Yoshimo. But to dual him just before he betrays you.... That's very cheap. Real man of steel wouldn't have done that.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Astafas said:

    Is there by chance a mod that removes the betrayal? That would really be fantastic. I recall an exploit in order to keep Yoshi that worked early on, but that was addressed in one of the patches IIRC.

    There's a mod called tortured souls . it removes the betrayal and introduces a new npc.
  • AstafasAstafas Member Posts: 448
    DJKajuru said:

    Astafas said:

    Is there by chance a mod that removes the betrayal? That would really be fantastic. I recall an exploit in order to keep Yoshi that worked early on, but that was addressed in one of the patches IIRC.

    There's a mod called tortured souls . it removes the betrayal and introduces a new npc.
    Thanks! Looked it up and I'm really not interested in having other NPC:s in the story. :-/
  • Awong124Awong124 Member Posts: 2,642
    @Heindrich1988 Yeah, it just makes him useless when he tries to help Irenicus kill you.
  • CrawleyCrawley Member Posts: 74
    I dualed him into a warrior while playing SCSII and he was like the most dying member of my party while being a thief.
    So I don't think that works well, but who knows - for casual playback might be OK.
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    Yoshimo? Noshimo. :I
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Dualing him is horrible. As a BH needs at least 13 levels to get all his useful stuff, and hitting 14 fighter takes forever on top. Besides Bounty Hunters are best left single class, since their primary perk requires 21+ for maze traps, and high levels to ensure they have plenty of normal snares to pair with it. Not to mention he hits the thief level milestones needed for increased xp from locks/traps faster then Jan will.

    Yes, Yoshi's canon issues leave much to be desired from a typical Bounty Hunter, since it's unlikely he'll reach 21 and become a God without doing every single side-quest possible, prior to Spellhold unless you have ToB, in which case Watcher's Keep makes doing it easy with quests to spare.


    SCSII is garbage and should never be used as a basis for determining if a class sucks or not. It's changes are blatantly biased, and totally inconsistent, even by BG standards, which are already pretty darn bad.

    Like modifying the Inquisitor's dispel magic to effect damn near everything, but leaving dispel magic gimped, even though the ONLY difference is that Inquisitor dispel has a 100% base chance, while dispel has a 50% base chance, and they're both supposed to be considered 3rd level spells. And dispel magic in general is supposed to be explicitly excluded from any spell/ability that grants immunity to spells of a particular level. Even spell trap and spell shield aren't supposed to be flawless defense, because the dispel gets the chance to attempt to dispel them first, before moving on to other spells if it succeeds, or is blocked from further dispel attempts if it fails, where as normally it's supposed to check individually for each spell on the target but spell shield and spell trap as per their descriptions go first and will block or absorb the offending dispel attempt if they survive the dispel attempt.

    And all the scripted BS. It's fine to give them several scrolls to use, tweaking their spell-load out or having a sequencer or contingency readied, but blatantly ignoring the game rules is retarded. Especially when it blatantly invalidates several classes straight out. Every class is useful some in some fashion, but when it comes down to needing 3 mages to counter 1 mage because the 1 mage is getting periodic free-scripted buffs FOR NO REASON....that's when the mod desires a spot in the trash next to the Jail-bait-paladin. I beat the game as a solo Kensai just to wash the bad taste trying to play the mod "the proper way" out of my mouth because it's pure friggin' cheese...and thankfully can't stand-up to just beating the $%#^ out of it with a stick between scripted PfMW.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    It is perfectly viable to have both Yoshi as is and have Jan in the same party. Just have them specialize differently. In my last play through (still going on), I had the two of them and Korgan.

    Yoshi would scout out the area and identify where all the bad guys were. he would then come back and tell the party who would set up the ambush. Korgan would attract the enemy's attention and draw them in, whereupon Yoshi would step out of the shadows and deliver a devastating back-stab. Mayhem and murder would ensue between these two gentlemen with some extra help from Viconia and Jaheira. Meanwhile Jan and Charname are in the background removing protections or otherwise doing ranged damage. When the dust settles, Jan is there to de-trap the chests and open up the locks.
  • zupskyzupsky Member Posts: 126
    On my first playthrough when I was 6 years old i didn't understand any of the mechanics in the game, I didn't even know how to read. Somehow I recruited Yoshimo and got him dualed to warrior, and I used him in front line very efficiently. I never used his thief abilities, because he was walking around in some plate armor, Sarevok's tho handed sword and Balduran helmet. And he was leveling up very fast which was very exciting back then
  • 10thLich10thLich Member Posts: 99
    edited August 2013
    @ZanathKariashi
    RE: SCS
    Read the readme, understand the rationale behind those script changes and please don't throw uninformed generalizations around.

    They get those free spells, because they're long durations spells, and every mage worth his salt should cast the likes of armor or stoneskin first thing in the morning.
    Every mage with access to minor sequencer, sequencer, spell trigger, contingency and chain contingency gets one, because it would be foolish to not use them.

    All of that is standard repertoire for players, why should the NPCs be excluded?

    Those battle pre-casts of short duration spells are also a configurable option. You don't have to choose the hardest one (1) [aka I'll always use divination and magical traps in order to be informed about any threats], and could instead go with (2) only for ambushes, or (3) never.

    Dispel magic gives you 50% base, +5% for every level above/-10% for every level below the original caster, always 1% failure.
    An Inquisitor uses dispel magic at double his own level. Just 10 levels above the original caster guarantee 99% success.

    SCS/II even offers the option to nerf an Inquisitor's Dispel Magic to 1.5 instead of 2 times his level.

    Moreover, Dispel Magic is broken in the original game, ToBEX (included in SCS/II) and afaik BG:EE fix that.

    About the spell shield and spell trap problems, you should post them in feature requests/bugs, as that's no fault of SCS/II.



    A single class thief will always get faster to the higher level rewards for disarming traps and picking locks. That's because the median of all levels of a character (dual- or multi-class) is used to look-up which xp reward is given.

    And yes, Yoshi is way more fun as a rogue, but if one removes the lock-out period of dual-classes it would be way more interesting options wise.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    @10thLich , I've always rejected the 'improved mages' feature from SCSII . I don't believe that every mage has access to sequencers , triggers and contingencies . Charname and joinable npcs have because they've been through dozens of places . I would rather see mages following distinct scripts and show different tactics , instead of the "spell immunity+melf's meteors+summon demon" trick that every high level SCSII mage has.
  • 10thLich10thLich Member Posts: 99
    @DJKajuru
    Then I'd recommend the new Big Picture v181. Big Picture AI is more random and doesn't always use optional actions. Which makes it a bit more unpredictable.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Thanks!
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