Shapeshifting Buffs

Dragonfolk2000

I've mentioned this elsewhere before so I'm mentioning it here: please make shapeshifting somewhat useful. There are two ways this can be done.

1) Shapeshift shapes could become more powerful as the character levels up. Such as the druid starting with getting a wolf shape at level one and getting a brown bear at level 5 and then the black bear at level 10. But instead of just changing the druid's shape these new forms should improve upon the druid's existing statistics. When I get all shapes at once I am unsure which is more powerful or useful for a situation.

Progressive forms is also something I think could help the shapeshifter kit be improved. If giving the werewolf shape more powerful abilities is game breaking then space it out more: At level 1 the shapeshifter can become a wolf 1/day/class level, at level 7 the shapeshifter can become a normal werewolf 1/day/7 class levels, and at level 14 (I said that) they can become a greater werewolf 1/14 class levels. Each form is more powerful than the last and offers better benefits. This sort of thing could be applied to the avenger's various shapes as well (I mean spacing out when the druid acquires them).

2) A druid should be allowed to cast spells while shapeshifted. This may not fit the normal druid but the shapeshifter and maybe the avengers need this. Perhaps the normal druid shapes (wolf, brown bear, black bear) couldn't allow this but maybe forms where speech is possible could work (normal werewolf, greater werewolf, and fire salamander). In the case of the shapeshifter this would allow the kit to approach the 'fighter/cleric' role from a different direction. Avenger would be in a similar circumstance for this but they may be more powerful considering their access to mage spells.

ZanathKariashi

Simply put...no. Druids are never supposed to get spell-casting while shifting, because they lack the means of making the signs or the verbal aspects of the spells. Natural spell was yet another broken POS introduced in 3rd edition, that should remain where it belongs, in the garbage.

As mentioned elsewhere, the main issue with druid shapeshifting currently is that the shifted forms completely lack any of the utility or function they would have in PnP.

A pnp Druid is a jack of all trades, able to perform a myriad of roles by taking a new form. Turning into a wolf to track fleeing targets by scent, or tripping targets by swooping in to attack knees or ankles as they would against larger prey. Large bears able to grapple and maul targets or strike with powerful rending blows. Small birds or other flying creatures to travel quickly from place to place, or scout from above. Stealthy cats that can sneak silently around in shadows or foliage to make a devastating pounce attack and attempt to strike at a targets vital locations such as their kidneys or neck before leaping back out of the fray to stalk their target further as it weakens from blood loss. Venomous snakes with deadly poisons able to enter stealthily and strike fast and slither away to avoid retaliation or large constrictors able to grapple and crush a target to death.

These forms would still be lack luster in straight combat as their attacks would lack the ability to hit creatures with minimum magical requirements. But there are actually druid spells that allow that (+1 per 3 levels, even works on monks/general unarmed combat too, since it just applies to natural attacks). And most of the 2ndry effects such as grappling or tripping don't actually need to be able to damage the target directly. Simply grappling a mage would prevent them from being able to cast spells with somatic components, which most of them do. It would take special defenses like Wraithform or Ironguard, which causes non-magical physical attacks or non-magical metal to pass harmlessly through the warded target.


The shapeshifter's primary issue is that they didn't think things through when they designed their version of the kit. Lets let them turn into a werewolf and greater werewolf, that sounds awesome!....but..now that I think about it...both of those are actually pretty damn OP...so..lets nerf them horribly while we're at it. Sounds good, ship it!


A minor fix in my opinion would be to simply remove the Avenger's shapeshifting entirely and give them to the shapeshifter, removing the werewolf forms entirely, and simply allow the shapeshifter to change at level 1, with a greater daily amount of shapeshifting then a druid gets. Avenger's are already extremely strong because of their expanded spell knowledge, getting some OP forms on top is actually overkill and makes the kit way too strong.

Dragonfolk2000

ZanathKariashi said:

Simply put...no. Druids are never supposed to get spell-casting while shifting, because they lack the means of making the signs or the verbal aspects of the spells. Natural spell was yet another broken POS introduced in 3rd edition, that should remain where it belongs, in the garbage.

I felt that Natural Spell made the druid more useable but keep in mind that I was introduced to it through 3.5, not 3rd. I read some of 3.0's material and I think 3.5 is stronger in the long run. Natural Spell is one of those things that the druid really did need.

ZanathKariashi said:

As mentioned elsewhere, the main issue with druid shapeshifting currently is that the shifted forms completely lack any of the utility or function they would have in PnP.

A pnp Druid is a jack of all trades, able to perform a myriad of roles by taking a new form. Turning into a wolf to track fleeing targets by scent, or tripping targets by swooping in to attack knees or ankles as they would against larger prey. Large bears able to grapple and maul targets or strike with powerful rending blows. Small birds or other flying creatures to travel quickly from place to place, or scout from above. Stealthy cats that can sneak silently around in shadows or foliage to make a devastating pounce attack and attempt to strike at a targets vital locations such as their kidneys or neck before leaping back out of the fray to stalk their target further as it weakens from blood loss. Venomous snakes with deadly poisons able to enter stealthily and strike fast and slither away to avoid retaliation or large constrictors able to grapple and crush a target to death.

The thing is that this is a computer game. We cannot perfectly translate the PnP game onto the PC. If the point was to make the druid a jack of all trades then wouldn't allowing them to cast spells in some forms allow them to fulfill that role? I do like the idea of adding additional forms with abilities that fulfill non-combat functions (a cat form that has a high stealth ability for instance).

ZanathKariashi said:

These forms would still be lack luster in straight combat as their attacks would lack the ability to hit creatures with minimum magical requirements. But there are actually druid spells that allow that (+1 per 3 levels, even works on monks/general unarmed combat too, since it just applies to natural attacks). And most of the 2ndry effects such as grappling or tripping don't actually need to be able to damage the target directly. Simply grappling a mage would prevent them from being able to cast spells with somatic components, which most of them do. It would take special defenses like Wraithform or Ironguard, which causes non-magical physical attacks or non-magical metal to pass harmlessly through the warded target.

In the end I don't think the shapeshifts (except for the werewolf shapes and the fire salamander) should count as magic for minimal magic requirements. This kind of restriction would allow the druid to not be overpowered. I am also unfamiliar with any spell that allows an unarmed attack to count as magic (at least in this game. I could see tripping being a hilarious (and broken) ability for the bear shapes and I do like the idea of the bear shapes having a higher chance (not 100% though) of causing spell failure on spell-casting targets. This does kinda leave wolves in the dust though. Perhaps the whole 'progessive forms' thing could be more useful in the case?

ZanathKariashi said:

The shapeshifter's primary issue is that they didn't think things through when they designed their version of the kit. Lets let them turn into a werewolf and greater werewolf, that sounds awesome!....but..now that I think about it...both of those are actually pretty damn OP...so..lets nerf them horribly while we're at it. Sounds good, ship it!

Sounds about right, which is part of the reason why I say space the various shapes the way I've suggested

ZanathKariashi said:

A minor fix in my opinion would be to simply remove the Avenger's shapeshifting entirely and give them to the shapeshifter, removing the werewolf forms entirely, and simply allow the shapeshifter to change at level 1, with a greater daily amount of shapeshifting then a druid gets. Avenger's are already extremely strong because of their expanded spell knowledge, getting some OP forms on top is actually overkill and makes the kit way too strong.

I don't think that Avenger forms in combination with their spells make them OP because they already cannot cast spells while shapeshifted. Although I would agree with your suggestion on the 'minor fix' the problem is that this would deviate far too much from the original shapeshifter introduced in BG2. Not that Cernd would notice...

ZanathKariashi

The spell to enhance magic on natural attacks is in Complete Druid, it's 3rd level, Infused Magic. Allows the natural attacks of the target to by-pass to-hit requires equal to +1 per 3 levels, maximum of +5 at 15, lasts 1 hour.


The reason the Avenger is overpowered is because it's clearly better then the base druid, and clearly the best druid kit period. It's "penalties" are joke, and it adds several powerful spells to the druids spell-casting, AND several new and powerful forms on top.

(Just to give a frame of reference, the PnP Avenger just gets a bonus weapon proficiency point at creation due to a more marital stance then a typical druid and suffers a severe reaction adjustment from non-druids due to their surly nature to those who they feel are despoiling nature)

A kit that is completely better then the vanilla class is broken. They're supposed to be overall about the same in terms of ability, just with a different flavor. At current every kit is stronger then the base druid.

The normal druid forms are useless due to lack their utility and how quickly outdated they become as a result. In fact, they're borderline useless the moment you unlock shapeshifting except vs trivial enemies.

The totemic summons it's totem spirits instead of shapeshifting into them, like it's supposed to and it's only supposed to get 1 totem spirit, chosen at creation that never changes. And has no effective penalty as a result. The PnP totemic's penalty is that they lose their versatility, because they're limited to only 1 shape, even if it is a spirit beast with a degree of build-in powers (like immunity to normal weapons, and can strike if they had a magical enhancement for every 3 levels), but they can only use it 3x per day, for 1 hour maximum and don't get it till level 7.

The Avenger as mentioned above has both stronger shapeshifts and much better casting, and their only real penalty, max of 16 str, is a joke due to how easy it is to replace a str score by shapeshifting, items, or spells.

Shapeshifter is a superior straight up tank, even if their damage is lack-luster vs some enemies, and easily off-sets the lack of armor, and when you think about, very few druid spells can be cast in the thick of battle and are pretty lack luster. Meaning you play a caster till you've cast all the spells that are needed, then go werewolf and tank.



Because casting while shapeshifted wouldn't really help any (very few druid spells are genuinely useful to be cast in the thick of battle and you're better off just sitting back and casting from a distance if you intend to cast, or shapeshifting to boost your combat stats a little to enter the fray and save spells and doesn't in anyway replace the utility lost from current forms.

While I agree that not all of the utility of the forms can be implemented, some of it can. Giving the wolf form a slight speed boost and giving it a chance per hit to force the start to save or fall down or at least slow for a round or two.

Giving the bear a small chance to stun on hit, and the ability to attempt a grapple, requires a touch attack, and the target must make a str check to attempt to break the hold, and it persists until a successful check is made or the target is damaged.

trading the black bear with a panther that can use stealth and has a small backstab bonus and a chance to cause bleeding with their attacks.

Dragonfolk2000

ZanathKariashi said:

The spell to enhance magic on natural attacks is in Complete Druid, it's 3rd level, Infused Magic. Allows the natural attacks of the target to by-pass to-hit requires equal to +1 per 3 levels, maximum of +5 at 15, lasts 1 hour.

I see. This becomes irrevelent to the BG Druid since this isn't a spell that actually exists in the game.

ZanathKariashi said:

The reason the Avenger is overpowered is because it's clearly better then the base druid, and clearly the best druid kit period. It's "penalties" are joke, and it adds several powerful spells to the druids spell-casting, AND several new and powerful forms on top.

(Just to give a frame of reference, the PnP Avenger just gets a bonus weapon proficiency point at creation due to a more marital stance then a typical druid and suffers a severe reaction adjustment from non-druids due to their surly nature to those who they feel are despoiling nature)

A kit that is completely better then the vanilla class is broken. They're supposed to be overall about the same in terms of ability, just with a different flavor. At current every kit is stronger then the base druid.
The Avenger as mentioned above has both stronger shapeshifts and much better casting, and their only real penalty, max of 16 str, is a joke due to how easy it is to replace a str score by shapeshifting, items, or spells.

I agree with you on this one. The Avenger's actual abilities greatly outweigh its flaws. Con doesn't need to be higher than 16 unless you want to dual-class (and why would you when fighter benefits don't apply to shapeshifting?) and Str doesn't matter because if you really needed to be in melee you could shapeshift into something useful?

ZanathKariashi said:

The normal druid forms are useless due to lack their utility and how quickly outdated they become as a result. In fact, they're borderline useless the moment you unlock shapeshifting except vs trivial enemies.

I came into the series with BG2 and the two druids that I ever used were Jaheira and Cernd. By the time the game actually begins it did not feel like the shapeshifts were useful to me when I had Minsc wielding Lilarcor or the main character wielding the Flail of Ages. So yeah, this is part of the reason why shapeshifting needs to be buffed because such a cool feature becomes useless before you even get it.

ZanathKariashi said:

The totemic summons it's totem spirits instead of shapeshifting into them, like it's supposed to and it's only supposed to get 1 totem spirit, chosen at creation that never changes. And has no effective penalty as a result. The PnP totemic's penalty is that they lose their versatility, because they're limited to only 1 shape, even if it is a spirit beast with a degree of build-in powers (like immunity to normal weapons, and can strike if they had a magical enhancement for every 3 levels), but they can only use it 3x per day, for 1 hour maximum and don't get it till level 7.

When I played BG2 I would play it with my Dad and brother and we would spam the crap out of summons. Naturally, this was our favorite druid kit.

ZanathKariashi said:

Shapeshifter is a superior straight up tank, even if their damage is lack-luster vs some enemies, and easily off-sets the lack of armor, and when you think about, very few druid spells can be cast in the thick of battle and are pretty lack luster. Meaning you play a caster till you've cast all the spells that are needed, then go werewolf and tank.

Because casting while shapeshifted wouldn't really help any (very few druid spells are genuinely useful to be cast in the thick of battle and you're better off just sitting back and casting from a distance if you intend to cast, or shapeshifting to boost your combat stats a little to enter the fray and save spells and doesn't in anyway replace the utility lost from current forms.

The shapeshifter's shapes make it a better tank than the 'druid' but being better than the druid at anything doesn't amount to much in BG. As I mentioned in the Archer thread a fighter/druid would be much better than a shapeshifter because a fighter/druid doesn't expend a daily ability to switch what spell they need to cast.

ZanathKariashi said:

While I agree that not all of the utility of the forms can be implemented, some of it can. Giving the wolf form a slight speed boost and giving it a chance per hit to force the start to save or fall down or at least slow for a round or two.

Giving the bear a small chance to stun on hit, and the ability to attempt a grapple, requires a touch attack, and the target must make a str check to attempt to break the hold, and it persists until a successful check is made or the target is damaged.

trading the black bear with a panther that can use stealth and has a small backstab bonus and a chance to cause bleeding with their attacks.

I think grappling would make things a bit too powerful for a druid (and all their kit buddies with the bear shape) but that aside I would agree with this. The bear could have a 'maul' power where it would be an augmentation of the bear's existing attack where every hit would cause a cumulative spell failure penalty *gasp* just like another kit that we all know! I think that the wolf could use the speed boost (a small one) and instead of a 'chance' to force someone to knock down how about against large sized or smaller creatures on every critical hit?

ZanathKariashi

On the subject of F/D. they're also broken.

ALL of a druid's restrictions are result of their vows...not lack of training. A Fighter/Druid is supposed to be identical to a druid, except they can earn bonus attacks and maybe specialize if they get high enough in fighter level. Letting them use any armor, helms, or shields they please makes the combination MUCH stronger then it's supposed to be.

No one would take a F/D near combat in leather, with no helm (except me, because I know it's not that big of a deal).


The real problem with BG is that are implementations of the mechanics are utterly broken and completely inconsistent. It's a tangled mess and it's really to hard to find a place to start tweaking.

Nachti

I would like to see balanced and useful druid kits.