Skip to content

Let's Not Turn This Blackguard Into A Polar-Opposite-Paladin

SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
Despite the possibility of dreaded inconsistencies with pen-and-paper rules, I'd like to suggest that Overhaul NOT ruin the Blackguard for me by just making it an Evil Paladin with Harm Touch instead of Lay on Hands. I'd be bored to death with such a thing, and would probably just roll a Berserker instead. I'd much prefer it if the Blackguard could do interesting things like raise some undead, add a cold damage-over-time to his weapon attacks a few times per day. Just SOMETHING more creative than a Paladin who harms instead of heals.

Discuss.

Comments

  • FrozenDervishFrozenDervish Member Posts: 295
    Agreed.

    To go more on that though could add a small x2 backstab multiplier, poisoned weapons, and stat reducing diseases.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Those sound like excellent ideas, Frozen! Though, I think Backstab is hard-coded to only work with katana, longs words, daggers, short swords, clubs, and quarterstaves. Blackguards that love halberds and greatswords like me would be very sad. Still, if Overhaul could pull it off, and Backstabs can actually occur while not hidden, I would definitely approve.
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    @Schneidend Backstab is coded to work with any weapon a single class thief can equip. Thus a +3 Staff can Backstab, but a Staff of the Magi cannot.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Can single-class thieves equip greatswords? Can you backstab while not hidden/invisible? If yes, I support a x2 Backstab for Blackguards!
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,344
    Backstab for a class wearing full plate seems like a bit of a stretch.. it's thematically based on being a surprise attack after all.
  • FrozenDervishFrozenDervish Member Posts: 295
    Well I assume that since they can de-hardcode several features backstab, singing, pickpocket, stealth, and various other hardcoded UI elements could be changed so I'd like to think being able to change backstab requirements would be within the realm of possibility.

    Thieves can only use 1-hand swords, short swords, daggers, staves, katana, and maces I believe for backstabbing, while also preventing anything that says that a thief cannot get proficiency points in or is disallowed by the item restriction.

    Such as Dazzu stated the Staff of the magi has a requirement of "Mage only", but if you say changed that status in an editor a rogue would be able to backstab with it.

    But if you did the same thing to Carsomyr it would not backstab due to single class thieves being unable to use or put proficiency points into 2-hand swords without cheating via "Use Any Item" or class ability editing.

    Other suggestions for the blackguard include:

    1. A passive aura surrounding the Blackguard at all times at higher levels that lowers all saves by 1 while an enemy is in it.

    2. Fear spell or aura

    3. Should a blackguard go good his blackguard powers remain, but be unable to level up further into the class and auto dual class to a base fighter regardless of race.

    4. Spell traps that deal damage/apply various status effects when stepped on.

    5. Spell to Negate healing on a target

    6. Modest sized spellbook

    7. Lowered thac0 and APR gain and make a larger spellbook/spellpower say 2-3 APR max at higher end levels, but up to 5-6 spellbook levels, 1/2 to 2/3 spell levels where as a paladin would reach higher thac0, 5 APR, and level 4 spellbook and 1/4 the spell levels.

    Just some suggestions that are similar to the DnD Blackguard class, and maybe something different feeling than just an evil paladin.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Shin said:

    Backstab for a class wearing full plate seems like a bit of a stretch.. it's thematically based on being a surprise attack after all.

    Backstab and sneak attack have been flavored as many things, including fighting as dirty and dishonorably as possible. In 3rd Edition the Blackguard had Sneak Attack die, and 4th Edition Blackguards deal extra damage to enemies they have an advantage over.

    Well I assume that since they can de-hardcode several features backstab, singing, pickpocket, stealth, and various other hardcoded UI elements could be changed so I'd like to think being able to change backstab requirements would be within the realm of possibility.

    Thieves can only use 1-hand swords, short swords, daggers, staves, katana, and maces I believe for backstabbing, while also preventing anything that says that a thief cannot get proficiency points in or is disallowed by the item restriction.

    Such as Dazzu stated the Staff of the magi has a requirement of "Mage only", but if you say changed that status in an editor a rogue would be able to backstab with it.

    But if you did the same thing to Carsomyr it would not backstab due to single class thieves being unable to use or put proficiency points into 2-hand swords without cheating via "Use Any Item" or class ability editing.

    Other suggestions for the blackguard include:

    1. A passive aura surrounding the Blackguard at all times at higher levels that lowers all saves by 1 while an enemy is in it.

    2. Fear spell or aura

    3. Should a blackguard go good his blackguard powers remain, but be unable to level up further into the class and auto dual class to a base fighter regardless of race.

    4. Spell traps that deal damage/apply various status effects when stepped on.

    5. Spell to Negate healing on a target

    6. Modest sized spellbook

    7. Lowered thac0 and APR gain and make a larger spellbook/spellpower say 2-3 APR max at higher end levels, but up to 5-6 spellbook levels, 1/2 to 2/3 spell levels where as a paladin would reach higher thac0, 5 APR, and level 4 spellbook and 1/4 the spell levels.

    Just some suggestions that are similar to the DnD Blackguard class, and maybe something different feeling than just an evil paladin.

    I like the aura ideas! Aura of Pain is my favorite ability in the Dragon Age games, so something like that would be glorious, as well.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,344

    Shin said:

    Backstab for a class wearing full plate seems like a bit of a stretch.. it's thematically based on being a surprise attack after all.

    Backstab and sneak attack have been flavored as many things, including fighting as dirty and dishonorably as possible. In 3rd Edition the Blackguard had Sneak Attack die, and 4th Edition Blackguards deal extra damage to enemies they have an advantage over.
    Well, I suppose I should say that under 2nd edition rules where sneak attack requires stealth and is only available to stealth-themed, leather-confined classes like thieves and stalkers, it seems like a bit of a stretch. I would rather see it implemented in a different way if so.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    That's a good point, Shin, and I'd definitely prefer something more direct for the Blackguard to have at his fingertips. But, honestly, I'm willing to take anything appropriately sinister that's more creative than getting Cause Wounds instead of Lay on Hands.
  • CadrosCadros Member Posts: 253
    The other paladin Kits add quite a bit of variety and new abilities/immunities so I imagine the blackguard will be quite different.
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited July 2012
    Ok first of all, i read this in the new class discussion and i quite agree with it.

    I don't think Blackguard is a Paladin kit. I think it's a Fighter one.

    Why?

    The argument is simple. Half-Orcs can't be Paladins, so they can't take Paladin kits either, and i think it's impossible to change the code so you can take a kit only from a specific class. So i think Blackguard is a fighter.

    What i think he's about :

    He has some spells i imagine, cleric ones like paladin, but with more necromancy involved, either spells or special abilities.

    I imagine he has either backstab or poison abilities as well. Not the classical backstab of rogues, something like a special attack that catches you unprepared, maybe ignoring armor, or causing side effects, like bleeding, or slow or an attack that could make your opponent run in fear.

    Additionally i think his number one ability is infusing his weapon with black magic, making it something like a runeblade. Maybe the Blackguard has a sword that gains abilities as well when he levels up.

    Who knows, the possibilities are endless.

    The only thing that makes me uncertain about being Paladin or Fighter kit, is that, i get the feeling Blackguards are about swords mostly maybe, so he couldn't dual class properly into cleric. Unless he doesn't need a sword but can infuse any weapon, OR if he is the only class that allows for a cleric to use swords only.

    Edit: DOH i forgot Undead Minions! Of course he would be able to animate dead :]
  • HinkelHinkel Member Posts: 14
    I found an article about the Blackguard, which explains his skillset.

    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413e

    This would confirm that he has an aura, can command undead and has some kind of backstab.
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    Yeah, this is the Blackguard as a prestige class from 3 and 3.5 edition D&D.
  • HinkelHinkel Member Posts: 14
    so what remains to be seen is in how far the kit has to be changed to make it work with the engine right?
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    I'm not so much worried about accuracy to this or that rulebook. The only real guideline as I see it as that Blackguards are nasty. Even if their goals aren't insidious, their methods are. They don't fight fair, and they wield heavy weaponry alongside some dirty tricks and magical surprises.

    I don't necessarily want the 3.5 Blackguard. I want a dark knight with sinister powers. They can do whatever they like with the kit, as long as it gets that feeling across.
Sign In or Register to comment.