Shadowdancer -> Fighter BG2:EE

Purudaya

I'm sure I posted somewhere before on the forums that I think a Shadowdancer/Fighter dual class would be a great build for BG2:EE. If dualling at lvl 9 (and assuming all the flaws with the kit are resolved in the patch), a fighter with their high APR, katana proficiencies, and dual-wielding could land crazy amounts of 3x backstabs multiple times in a fight.

It's the type of class I'd LIKE to play, but I'm not sure how viable it will be come TOB given (1) the relatively stunted performance of fighters at high levels and (2) the ability of many high-level NPCs to detect invisibility.

I like main characters who are able to play a decisive role in combat, so if this build will be outshone by other party members halfway through the campaign I might try something else... Any tips/thoughts?

Ascerion

To combat the second problem, non-detection spell is pretty useful. I haven't beaten BG2, but in BG1 it is found on Gurke's cloak. Perhaps there is a source of the effect on a magical item?

Alternatively, it can just be cast as needed.

Also, from what I've read, non-detection only works for Hide In Shadows, not invisibility. But it does work wonders against True Sight.

Lord_Tansheron

The main problem with backstabs is that most of the high-level enemies are immune. Liches, Dragons, Beholders, Bosses, they all see through invisibility and cannot be backstabbed under any circumstances. Since those are the enemies you actually need to worry about, I find backstabs to be handy, but not overly powerful.

sarevok57

I was playing ToB a few days back and I had a stalker use backstab ( because I cast mass invisibility A LOT) and it said "backstab failed" and I thought right on, didn't even attempt to backstab a baddie with one of this class' most dominant feature and it fails anyway, wicked

Ascerion

Lord_Tansheron said:

The main problem with backstabs is that most of the high-level enemies are immune. Liches, Dragons, Beholders, Bosses, they all see through invisibility and cannot be backstabbed under any circumstances. Since those are the enemies you actually need to worry about, I find backstabs to be handy, but not overly powerful.

I got all the way to the golem cave in BG1 with my assassin, solo. The idea was to grind them alone for some good experience. I learned the hard way that they were immune to backstabs, lol.

sarevok57

@Ascerion hahaha, that is ouchie, did you at least have the girdle of bluntness and a potion of aborbtion?

Ascerion

sarevok57 said:

@Ascerion hahaha, that is ouchie, did you at least have the girdle of bluntness and a potion of aborbtion?

Actually, yes! I loaded up on all the crushing AC I could possibly find! They STILL hit like a truck, though. Just less often, heh. I also used the shield amulet and I think I may have "drank" some armor scrolls.

Don't judge me, lol.

sarevok57

drank some armor scrolls aye? I thought they got rid of that

Purudaya

hmm, so maybe not as viable as I thought? Will the experience then basically just be like playing a straight fighter through BG2:EE, because I can think of some other uses for HiPS other than backstabs. Do enemies who are immune to backstab pretty much always see through invisibility as well?

It may be that Kenthief is a better choice, but I've heard that it's pretty OP and you have to grind through a good part of SoA at low-level. If it's unanimous that Shadowdancer -> Fighter is kind of a bust, what would be some good alternatives for a non-caster, non-paladin charname?

Ascerion

@purudaya

Well, I mean, if it sounds fun, definitely go for it. It might not always be great, like against dragons/liches/beholders/golems, but it's definitely a solid kit. You can drop a thief since you will have some points left over after maxing HiS/MS. The enemies that are immune to backstabs don't see through invis unless someone casts true sight.

Kenthief takes a long time to get good, and the main benefit is getting use all items to break the kensai's biggest weakness. Also, you would want to dual at like level 13 for the most attacks per round, which means you wouldn't be a thief until BG:2.

If you want to be a dual class, and you like being a fighter, I would consider Berserker/Cleric, or, if you don't want any spellcasting, a shorty fighter/thief multiclass. Both get great saving throws, and the B/C gets really strong with Draw Upon Holy Might, and having the ability to heal/buff helps if you want to drop a Cleric for more room in the party.

This is a really good site if you are trying to weigh the pros and cons of kits:

http://web.archive.org/web/20090704103705/http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Classes_and_Kits

Purudaya

Ascerion said:

@purudaya

Well, I mean, if it sounds fun, definitely go for it. It might not always be great, like against dragons/liches/beholders/golems, but it's definitely a solid kit. You can drop a thief since you will have some points left over after maxing HiS/MS. The enemies that are immune to backstabs don't see through invis unless someone casts true sight.

Kenthief takes a long time to get good, and the main benefit is getting use all items to break the kensai's biggest weakness. Also, you would want to dual at like level 13 for the most attacks per round, which means you wouldn't be a thief until BG:2.

If you want to be a dual class, and you like being a fighter, I would consider Berserker/Cleric, or, if you don't want any spellcasting, a shorty fighter/thief multiclass. Both get great saving throws, and the B/C gets really strong with Draw Upon Holy Might, and having the ability to heal/buff helps if you want to drop a Cleric for more room in the party.

This is a really good site if you are trying to weigh the pros and cons of kits:

http://web.archive.org/web/20090704103705/http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Classes_and_Kits

Hey, that's a great resource - thanks! I'm still kind of stuck on the idea, so I guess the best way to try it out would be in whatever the BG2:EE iteration of the Black Pits looks like.

CaptRory

You could go a different route. Someone once suggested dualing into a mage, so you could cast a spell, hide to dump aggro, cast a spell, hide, so on and so forth. Like, using the hide anywhere function to avoid being a squashed mage.

OYME

Playing with "make the game harder" mods like scsii will really make this combo shine. Everytime you run into something dangerous like a spellcaster, just HIPS as they begin casting until they run out of spells (or dangerous ones anyways). When backstabbing fails either from immunities or from seeing through invisibility, that's where the fighter thaco or mage spellcasting comes into play. Basically, this combo is meant to make the early to mid game easier (excluding BG1ee of course). I'm not at all familiar with thief/cleric combos so I can't offer any advice there.

There are some downsides to this however. You will have no points at all anywhere else to spend. Unless you ignore one stat for the other, you will have to put all your points into both stats. So you will need another temporary thief like Jan or Yoshimo until you can stock up on gear and thief potions (drinking more then 1 makes their lockpiking affects stack) or having somebody slug through them with a ring of regeneration.

I am actually hoping that the new NPC for BG2:EE is a shadowdancer dualled to a fighter or mage. While a human made CHARNAME of this would have to put all their points in hide in shadows and move silently, the new NPC might fix this. Just like Jan, this new character could fix this issue by simply have extra points spread evenly all over (or come with her own magical gear). This would fix the otherwise gimped character. It would make the most sense for an evil character to have this due to the common trait of evil characters having better (and unobtainable) stats then good characters. So let's hope this is what turns out to happen.

Lord_Tansheron

Purudaya said:

Do enemies who are immune to backstab pretty much always see through invisibility as well?

Not always, but the two are often connected. Liches and Beholders for example are immune to backstab and also see through invisibility at all times; Golems on the other hand are immune to backstab, but cannot see through invisibility.

As for what to choose, my advice would be to pick something you feel is the most fun for you. Power-wise, the choices are pretty one-sided and boring; if you even pick a thief at all... I've stopped using them a while back, and never once missed them.

bescheid

I was also thinking of this build, seems really nice. To bad u cant do it the other way around thou, would love to also have theif hlas for the lategame

Southpaw

Purudaya said:

It may be that Kenthief is a better choice, but I've heard that it's pretty OP and you have to grind through a good part of SoA at low-level.

Well, you can dual your Kensai on lvl 7 (where you get a +0.5APR) to a Thief. At Thieves' level 8, you'll regain your warrior abilities and can wail on in BG2. That means you won't be as OP as a Kensai dualled on lvl 13 (or lvl 9 is also popular), but you'll spend a big part of BG1 as a lower-level Thief.

(I have dualled my Kensai on lvl 7 in one BGEE run)