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AC Modifier redundancy and Initiative question.

Is initiative based on enemy awareness ( who sees who first ? ) or just plain random roll ? Is it even implemented ? Or did they just need to fill the manual a little more ?
SOA manual pg 72 paragraph 4.
Increased casting and attack speed sounds good to me. Even if it is only slightly faster.

Secondly at what point does AC modifier be come redundant or unneeded ?

My lvl 9 F / Ill has -7 AC
My AC modifier for missile weapons is 16.
So that would make my AC to missile at 23. Right ?

As a close up and personal fighter / mage I would rather use up my Stoneskin on melee attacks then missile.

I know about the Missile reflection cloak but I like the STs on Cloak of Displacement ( which ironically offers missile 4 ) more. Besides Ms Whiney needs it more then's like she has a bullseye painted on her or something...sheesh.

The reason I ask is that I want to change shields. ( I would lose 7 missile )



  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited September 2013
    Initiative is just weapon speed...nothing more. And rapidly becomes worthless depending on your class/proficiencies/weapon enhancement mod. Having +2 initiative just means your first attack in the round will happen 2 parts faster (rounds are made up of 10 time parts (every ~3.3 time parts is equal to 2 seconds of real-time). If you had a 10 speed weapon it would take until the end of the round to attack. Or 8 with 2 imitative, also, each extra attack needs at least 1 time part to strike, so if you had a 10 speed weapon with no other modifiers but had 4 attacks per round, it would push your effective weapon speed down to 6 to have enough space in the round to make all your allowed attacks).

    (BG uses the personal initiative rounds rule. Your rounds aren't being tracked until you attempt to do something that is tracked in rounds. Such as attempting to attack, or using an item or ability, etc).

    As for AC, what you see is what you get. -7 is your generic AC (doesn't include any extra modifiers armor types may have, such as chainmail having a 2 ac penalty vs blunt damage). You missile defense is just -16 (though it could be as high as -20 if you're wearing a suit of full-plate, since those bonuses aren't shown in the total). A screen shot would be infinitely easier to see what you're referring to for that part.

    And for the record...AC is basically worthless in was somewhat important in BG1, due to low HP totals, but in BG2, it's more icing then cake. You only need a little bit (about -3) to filter out mook hits, anything beyond that and even -10 and beyond AC isn't going to help much since they're still going to hit better then 50% of the time. Preventing the enemy from attacking in the first place by CC or just killing them quickly is the better option in every case.

    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
  • ogrebogreb Member Posts: 98
    I was thinking of Initiative for spell casting more then weapons.
    Getting 1 off Spell casting time can be a big deal in a mage duel.
    Says Initiative affects spell casting speed
    Thanks for info.

    My CHARNAME's AC is -7
    Gauntlets , robes, jewelry, shield,Claw, 19 dex, etc.
    Missle AC 16
    Claw (-4) Cloak of Displacment (-4), shield ( -7 ),belt ( -4 ) +2 Class Modifier.

    -3 huh ? That kinda blows.
    I'm still going to aim for low AC as I don't wear armor . but I will keep my eye open for more crushing, slashing resist stuff.

    And I don't get hit : Blur ( Claw,Cloak ) Mirror Image, Stoneskin etc.

    I think I'll play BG 2 EE on insane.

    Solo... (maybe I'll take Jan along as my homie.)

    Too bad gnomes can't be F/M/Ts.

  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356

    And for the record...AC is basically worthless in was somewhat important in BG1, due to low HP totals, but in BG2, it's more icing then cake.

    That's rather misleading, @ZanathKariashi. Remember that we're being read here by a lot of players who don't necessarily have years of experience in original BG2, and may therefore not realise that what you say is true only in the later stages of the game.

    In the first half of BG2, AC is quite a significant factor - almost as important as in BG1.

    When you get into the ToB sections at the end, then yes, resistances and killing the enemy quickly become much more important than AC. But you can't get to those stages at all unless you can first survive the first few chapters, for which you certainly should think about AC.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,802
    i still find AC quite important all the way up to the final fight with mellisan, my AC averages around -15 for my front line guys and its quite effective, even big bosses can miss with 4s and such, which is much better than missing with only 1s, and just bg2 by itself AC is very useful, i hit around -12/ -13 or so in SoA and enemies miss me quite frequently, when you use beserk, protection from evil, fullplate mail and have a starting AC of -12, baddies will miss you

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,107
    The AC issue depends on several factors, like mods, difficulty, and party setup (among others). Generally though AC progression for players does not increase in the same way that enemy THAC0s do. For example, on my setup Melissan has a THAC0 of -10 - that means that even with -20 AC, she'd hit me 50% of the time. Combined with Insane difficulty, she is very dangerous still even with insane AC. The way to combat that is through other means: mitigation instead of avoidance, i.e. reducing damage (through physical resistance, for example). Other alternatives are a great offense (kill before you are killed), spells (e.g. Stoneskin), or special tactics (e.g. kiting). Of course it's possible to just stand there and take it, hoping not to get hit, especially on lower difficulty levels; still, it's very important to keep in mind the workings of AC vs. THAC0 and their progression, and plan accordingly.

  • blackchimesblackchimes Member Posts: 323
    I usually try to get my AC as low as I can to exclusion of almost everything else, and the only time I remember it not really working out with non-boss enemies was when facing the Fire Giants in ToB.

  • velehalvelehal Member Posts: 230
    In SoA (even in modded game with SCS) AC is very important. Having AC about -12 or lower means that enemies have a problem to hit you. And it holds true even about hard enemies like drows, vampires, etc (except for dragons). But in ToB AC looses its importance and even having AC -20 is not sufficient to prevent from being hit regularly by creatures like fire giants, high level enemies and bosses.

  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 679
    edited September 2013
    A very good AC still makes a difference in ToB. Even the highest level enemies don't really have a THAC0 below about -10. So -20 AC means they will miss you half the time. Sure, they will still hit you but 50% is a big difference from 100%. And -20 AC is very achievable with great armor and some buffs.

    Post edited by karnor00 on
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 700
    Having -15/-20 AC means that instead of beeing hit, say, 80% of the time, you're hit 20% of the time.
    It's a world of difference.

    Now, that doesn't mean that you should use resistance abilities to lower incoming damage, since in ToB you can no longer only rely on AC as your main defense against ennemies... but lower AC is always, always, ALWAYS good.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,107
    It's all a matter of trade-offs - what are you sacrificing for your AC? Often it won't be much, if anything; in that case sure, go for it! Every little bit counts. But there are also instances where you have to make actual choices; either defensively (e.g. Jan's armor vs. actual armor with AC), or offensively (lower AC vs. more damage). These things can be tricky to decide, and have to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, but as long as you keep the issue in mind I'm sure you'll have little trouble making that decision.

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