Are the Baldur's Gate games true to the timeline of Faerun?

TethorilofLathander

I'm reffering to some of the information about the gods of 1368DR etc.

As far as I remember, Lathander went missing during the Time of Troubles and only revealed himself to be an old Netheril god near 1400DR. However, in Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn, we have churches to Lathander and I'm sure there was a worshipper of Mystra somewhere in the story, but wasn't she destroyed by Helm and her power given to Midnight?

Jarrakul

I can't speak to Lathander, but Midnight started using Mystra's name when she took the old goddess's portfolio. It's reasonable to assume that any temples to Mystra are now under Midnight-Mystra's sway.

Kaltzor

Well, for worshippers of Mystra... You do have Elminster, I think he sort of counts as one.

TethorilofLathander

What about a character like Xzar? From what I can see, he either worships Bane or Cyric because he's one of the Zhentarim. He would seem like more of a Bane worshipper than Cyric, but I might be wrong about that.

TethorilofLathander

Scrap that actually! Bane's portfolio went to Cyric, so therefore Xzar would have to be a worshipper of Cyric to gain his spellcasting abilities. I do have a question about Gorion however...as far as I can figure out, unless if you have some kind of godlike blood in you (Bhaalspawn for example), you have to worship a deity of some kind to gain magical abilities? Gorion's home is Candlekeep which is primarily a fortress that worships Oghma...yet I don't sense that about Gorion. Sure, he's a wise man with great knowledge, yet I see him more as a follower of Torm. In the books he tries to teach Abdel to become a monk of Torm and of course, we all see him having his ass handed to him by Sarevok (if you're going to be a follower of knowledge, then surely you can beat a slow fighter in the dark).

My theory would be that Gorion adopted Torm when he was an adventurer as he was more exposed to different gods on his travels, much like the fans of the games. I would say that when he took in the Player Character, he ended his adventuring days and raised him/her as his main occupation. As mentioned before, the role of Oghma wouldn't fit in with Gorion's later skills but it would make sense that the PC would be a follower if he/she were a cleric/mage/sorcerer.

Would like to get people's opinions on Gorion being a worshipper of Torm

Lord_Tansheron

There has been considerable debate about the BG timeline, given that the Time of Troubles 1358 DR) was much closer to the start of BG (1368 DR) than people think. That's not the end of it, though. The "canon" child of Bhaal lives until at least 1479 DR (!!), when he engages in battle with Viekang. How that really fits into everything, and how the Baldur's Gate games themselves tie into it precisely is, I think, nearly impossible to determine.

TethorilofLathander

I can see how those two tales would work. The Time of Troubles was in 1358, yet Bhaal foresaw his death and created the Bhaalspawn. Perhaps he did that in 1348, to make the age of the PC and Imoen canon. If that were the case, the tale of the PC's mother would have to be changed because why would she sacrifice her children to ressurect a god that was already alive? Unless however...Bhaal told her of what he foresaw, and the sacrifice was intended to be in stasis. By this I mean that the sacrifice would bring back Bhaal after his foreseen death, prompting Gorion and the Harpers to act.

As far as his great age and battle with Viekang go, that is an interesting idea. Perhaps he gained a greater age than most humans (we're assuming he's human here) because of his godly heritage. Sure, he won't have the essence of Bhaal within him but he'd still be partly demigod. Viekang could have various reasons for wanting to kill the PC.

scriver

TethorilofLathander said:

I do have a question about Gorion however...as far as I can figure out, unless if you have some kind of godlike blood in you (Bhaalspawn for example), you have to worship a deity of some kind to gain magical abilities?

Only Clerics and other Divine (or Druidic) casters need to have a patron deity. All other casters can worship whoever they wish, or nobody at all.

I also don't see Gorion being a follower of Torm. I'd figure him to be a follower of any of the magic-related deities above that, or maybe Selune.

TethorilofLathander

I only say Torm because Torm is a force for good and law. Being a foster father, Gorion would want to promote good and discipline to a child of Bhaal. Though I certainly couldn't see Gorion clad in full plate as so many of Torm's other worshippers are xD

Ironhalo

1) Lathander went missing sometime between the Time of Troubles and the Spellplague, but no exact time frames are given.

2) Bhaal did foresee his death, but only giving him 20 years makes no sense. He has children by Giants and Dragons, as well as by the elder races. For instance, if your PC is a Half Elf or an Elf, he/she is much older than 20. Obviously, there are timeline discrepancies here.

3) Xzar is a mage, and as such does not need to worship anyone to gain his spells. That said, even though Bane is currently dead, and Cyric holds his portfolio, many followers of Bane still continue to worship him. Without more information, it's very difficult to say whether Xzar is a follower of Cyric or the dead Bane.

4) I have no comment on Gorion's claimed deity.

There are some things that just won't line up, no matter how hard you try

scriver

Jaheira's age and the civil war in Tethyr is another one of them.

TethorilofLathander

1) I suppose Lathander could still be worshipped, even if he does go missing.
2) I meant more for the PC, if he/she is a human. He could have foreseen it many years before 1348DR but decided to mate with a human in 1348DR.
3) Xzar could just be a general mage with an evil alignment then.

TethorilofLathander

scriver said:

Jaheira's age and the civil war in Tethyr is another one of them.

Could you explain more about this? I remember according to the games, her parents were killed during the civil war, while she was a child I think?

Lord_Tansheron

I don't know where that idea is coming from that Gorion needs a deity; you need a deity if you are a cleric of some kind, or a holy warrior. Sure, there are worshipers of certain deities that are not clerics themselves (like how Mazzy follows Arvoreen), but I'm pretty sure that just ascribing one deity to everyone is a bit one-dimensional. Surely people can worship a whole lot of them if they so choose, or at least you know, revere them in their own way without actual die-hard devotion. More like Christian patron saints than actual centers of faith, something like that. Then again, I'm not too firm in "canonical" FR/DnD god lore.

The whole Bhaal vs. Time of Troubles vs. Timeline discussion was held on the forum before; with no definitive result, as you can imagine. There have been several theories put forward, though. I think it's not an established fact that the children of Bhaal had to necessarily all have been conceived *during* the Time of Troubles. Bhaal might have very well foreseen things well ahead of time, and come down for some nooky every now and then. That accounts for the vastly different ages of the children, though it still leaves open some questions as to CHARNAME her/himself, particularly in the light of what is revealed in the encounter with her/his mother in ToB. If CHARNAME is an elf, for example, age is a real concern; of course, children of Bhaal could very well age differently, though that too is a bit shaky (would CHARNAME not have had questions/noticed a different aging process?).

I think in the end such facts just have to be taken as what they are, and read with a whole lot of artistic liberty; or you could just go with "a wizard did it!"....

God

If you have trouble understanding the nature of BG timelines check your game clock and look closely at the messages of the 'You have rested for 1365 days and 7 hour' sort

TethorilofLathander

God said:

If you have trouble understanding the nature of BG timelines check your game clock and look closely at the messages of the 'You have rested for 1365 days and 7 hour' sort

I was always a bit put off by that I have to admit ;D

Thanks for answering my queries guys

Forse

@Lord_Tansheron you do want to be dedicated to a deity in FR if you care about your afterlife. Otherwise your soul ends up as mortar in a wall of souls in the astral (?) plane. Which it remains until it wears and tears into nothingness. Now that I think about, that might not be the worst fate depending on circumstances. But yeah the idea is that everyone in his right mind should want a patron god. The average Jane or Joe probably doesn't know of these specifics but I assume its common knowledge that you should be dedicated to a god, "or else!!!"

That said, theres nothing stopping a follower of Lathander from saying a prayer to Sune when going on their first date or to Helm when in need of protection

scriver

TethorilofLathander said:

scriver said:

Jaheira's age and the civil war in Tethyr is another one of them.

Could you explain more about this? I remember according to the games, her parents were killed during the civil war, while she was a child I think?

There was a big thread about her age someways back. I don't remember any specifics, just that her age (as a half-elf) and the timelines just didn't match up very well.

Jarrakul

@Forse, the Wall of the Faithless is, always and forever, the worst fate. It has to be, by design. The gods get power from worshipers, so they set things up so that the worst possible fate, worse than the greatest of betrayals, is to not worship any god. Indeed, that's the only thing that the FR afterlife consistently punishes. If you have a god, they can reward or punish you as they please, but there are so many of them you can probably manage to pick one who'll reward you no matter what you do. But following none of them will yield the worst punishment imaginable. And all of the gods, except Kelemvor (who tried to tear down the whole arrangement, before being forced into overseeing it), deliberately and knowingly perpetuate this state of affairs.

And that's why I cannot accept any God in FR as being good-aligned, no matter what their portfolio says. Except Kelemvor, who the books say is lawful neutral.

ZanathKariashi

BG Athkatla looks NOTHING like the PnP Athkatla. The only things that are sort of correct are the government district and the residential area, the rest of the city is the largest Temple of Waukeen in existence (the shadow thieves are actually based in the sewers running under the city with their main HQ in the Government district, since Aran Linveil is secretly one of the ruling council of Athkatla. Lathander, helm and especially Talos don't even have significant religious communities anywhere in Amn, especially not enough to have open temples.


@Ironhalo

Xzim stole Bane's old portfolio over Tyranny back from Cyric when he lost control of Zhentil keep at the same time Kelemvor was freed from Godsbane and took the Portfolio of Death. All Cyric has at this point in time is Intrigue (taken from Mask when he destroyed Godsbane), Deception (taken after killing Liera), and Murder (from Bhaal).

Gorion is a harper, and that implies he's likely worships one of their contributor gods as a patron: Azuth, Deneir, Eldath, Lliira, Mielikki, Milil, Mystra, Oghma, Selûne, Shaundakul, Shiallia, Silvanus, Tymora, and all of the non-evil Elven pantheon. Azuth, Mystra, or Oghma are the most likely, given his profession.


Midnight IS Mystra. While she did end up replacing the one slain by helm, it was a seamless transition and allowed her old followers to continue to worship her, even if they aren't the proper alignment. (Old Mystra was LN, Midnight is NG), and allowed all the chosen to continue their duties. And besides, that was over 10 years before the beginning of BG1.