BG2: does rushing imoen block off any other quests?

taltamir

I want to rush imoen because:
1. I need a decent thief in the party (edit: Actually in retrospect, after a few levels yoshimo becomes decent)
2. I want her in my "final" party and it seems like a huge waste of XP to have her not be with me when I do sidequests.

My one concern is that rushing off to rescue her will block off any quests in previous chapters.
What quests do I HAVE to complete before rushing after imoen?

My party is: Minsc, Jaheira, Viconia, Aerie, and yoshimo.

Lord_Tansheron

The only quest that disappears that I can remember is Mae'var, and only if you side with Bodhi. Pretty sure the others remain, but I might be missing something.

Madhax

From a powergaming perspective, you should be good. If you intend to roleplay at all, it's worth mentioning that there's a lot of pressure on you to finish the main storyline immediately following your return from rescuing Imoen. There's no enforced time limit, so you're free to hunt down as many dragons, beholders, and shadow druids as you want. But it might be awkward to justify.

taltamir

Madhax said:

From a powergaming perspective, you should be good. If you intend to roleplay at all, it's worth mentioning that there's a lot of pressure on you to finish the main storyline immediately following your return from rescuing Imoen. There's no enforced time limit, so you're free to hunt down as many dragons, beholders, and shadow druids as you want. But it might be awkward to justify.

From a roleplaying perspective, I can't justify NOT immediately going after Imoen.
What kind of pressure are we talking about here? Because most sidequests also have an element of roleplaying urgency (oh no, that poor village is being attacked by monsters! I must save them!)

Lord_Tansheron said:

The only quest that disappears that I can remember is Mae'var, and only if you side with Bodhi. Pretty sure the others remain, but I might be missing something.

who is maevar?

ChildofBhaal599

taltamir said:

Madhax said:

From a powergaming perspective, you should be good. If you intend to roleplay at all, it's worth mentioning that there's a lot of pressure on you to finish the main storyline immediately following your return from rescuing Imoen. There's no enforced time limit, so you're free to hunt down as many dragons, beholders, and shadow druids as you want. But it might be awkward to justify.

From a roleplaying perspective, I can't justify NOT immediately going after Imoen.
What kind of pressure are we talking about here? Because most sidequests also have an element of roleplaying urgency (oh no, that poor village is being attacked by monsters! I must save them!)

a lot is going on when you get back. I don't want to spoil any main story but it will feel very weird going to do all of those sub quests when there is so much happening. it is easier for me to just pretend that the price to get help is much higher than the game says and so I must do so much work to get to her

Madhax

I admit, it's been a while since I've played all the way through BG2. If I recall correctly, though, the elves are under attack and you're expected to drop everything and go save them, which leads to the finale of the game. It seemed more urgent to me than helping Imoen, who is imprisoned but not in immediate mortal danger.

taltamir

arrrgh! I am wracked with indecision here

Madhax said:

I admit, it's been a while since I've played all the way through BG2. If I recall correctly, though, the elves are under attack and you're expected to drop everything and go save them, which leads to the finale of the game. It seemed more urgent to me than helping Imoen, who is imprisoned but not in immediate mortal danger.

well, picking up imoen (no revenge, just steal her away) sounds like it would be a quick in and out thing, and as another party member she makes other tasks go easier. So that is the roleplaying reason... plus, childhood friend, and no ally left behind kinda deal.

Rescuing elves from attack sounds urgent... but so is rescuing the devirrs, or that random village, or the slaves in the slums, or anyone else that needs rescuing really.

Seriously I get so many rescue requests a day I have taken to roleplaying an insomniac... so many people to rescue, so few hours a day

Dragonfolk2000

To my knowledge this does not block off any future quests down the road (except for the Thieves' Guild if you sided with Bohdi).

On a fun side note: your party sounds a lot like the one I used the first time I finished BG2.

lamaros

Imoen isn't in any time focused danger. Depending on your character it actually makes much more sense to be over-prepared before going to rescue her than rushing at it, as you have very good reason to believe that all is not as it seems.

Unless your character is an overprotective worrying idiot you can justify not going there ASAP pretty well.

Lord_Tansheron

taltamir said:

who is maevar?

Scheming thieves guild branch office leader in the Docks. The quest dealing with him is offered by Renal Bloodscalp, who disappears when you side with Bodhi; if you side with the Shadow Thieves instead, you are free to do the quest upon your return from the Underdark as normal.

taltamir

Can I kill off both guilds?

setsunaluvr

Even though no quests as far as I kmow are blocked off if you rush straoght to spellhold, I would suggest doing every available quest beforehand. You will have all the equipment and skills you would need for most of the rest of the game. If you have the nerve, clearing out the first floor of Watchers Keep gives you even better stuff, like a returning +3 dart for your mage, I wouldn't go deeper in though. Just a suggestion.

blackchimes

I asked this in a thread a week or two back.

Do note that the areas of cemetery related to vampires(so the main area and the smaller floors) get changed. So anything left there before going to Spellhold is lost forever.

I am told that the specific areas related to Edwin and Korgan are still accessible though.

taltamir said:

Can I kill off both guilds?

No reputation loss for killing either guild.

doggy

It can be rushed but I feel the same way as the others here. You need more than the gold to get Imoen back.

Some nice equipment and xp as Irenicus has stolen all you have will come in handy.

shawne

The issue here isn't just gold and quests, it's balance - the pre-Imoen quests are generally easier, designed to help your party gain some levels. If you rush to Spellhold, you risk being underpowered, and that location kicks off a sequence that basically locks you in a specific area for a certain amount of time. You'll be facing enemies you may not be able to defeat, with no other way to gain XP.

taltamir

blackchimes said:

No reputation loss for killing either guild.

I wasn't expecting a rep loss. but being prevented from doing it due to it messing up main quest, or just it being literally impossible (lots of enemies in BG saga are unkillable and picking a fight with them ends in instant game over.)

ajwz

Blocks off the thieves guild quest if you sided with bodhi. Likely also blocks off any companion time-specific quests as well since you are gone a long time. If you have any companions, complete there time specific requests before you go else they will probably leave your party half way through, and you won't be able to recruit any replacements

Lord_Tansheron

taltamir said:

I wasn't expecting a rep loss. but being prevented from doing it due to it messing up main quest, or just it being literally impossible (lots of enemies in BG saga are unkillable and picking a fight with them ends in instant game over.)

It's definitely possible. Simply do the Thieves Guild sidequests before you side with Bodhi, then proceed to eradicate them. You can kill off the Thieves Guild leadership even beyond what Bodhi demands of you - in fact, it's quite profitable to do so, as Renal Bloodscalps holds a pair of precious Boots of Speed.

You do get the special "unkillable" NPC, Arkanis Gath, when you attack him though, whose hits cause instant death. There is a way around that: either have Death Ward up on everyone, or make them immune to +3 magical weapons (Protection from Magic Weapons, Mantle, etc.). You can then either run away and ignore Arkanis Gath, or (if your level is high enough) use Shapechange: Mind Flayer to drain his INT score, thus killing him through his "unkillable" protections. Any other stat/level drain works, too, of course.

Keep in mind that if you do want to do this, you will need to kill Renal before you side with Bodhi, as he will despawn when you do. Save Aran Linvail and the rest for Bodhi's quest, you'll get to kill everyone all the same eventually, but if you do it prematurely you may run into troubles finishing the quest.

Shin

taltamir said:

From a roleplaying perspective, I can't justify NOT immediately going after Imoen.
What kind of pressure are we talking about here? Because most sidequests also have an element of roleplaying urgency (oh no, that poor village is being attacked by monsters! I must save them!)

A decent middle-ground alternative between the "save sister asap" RP perspective and "prepare as much as possible early on" powergaming perspective is the SCS component that increases the amount of gold asked by both Bodhi and the Shadow Thieves. If you set it to 60, 80 or 100k, you will be forced to do a whole lot of work before reaching chapter 3 - and you'll also be under greater economical strain and perhaps not able to buy everything you'd want.

kab

When you return it is a race to save the world kind of urgency.

It's one of the few things I've never liked about BG2. The way it's written you spend the entire game forced into a situation where, from an RP perspective, it's very linear. You have a linear dungeon you must immediately escape. As soon as you manage that you have to rescue Imoen, obviously as fast as possible. That puts you once again into a linear series of areas you must progress through to escape. At last, you can take your time... wait no you have HUGE pressure to pursue another linear set of areas immediately.

The game starts when it ends in a manner of speaking, and by then you're way too high level for most of it to be relevant.

Lord_Tansheron

@kab: that's a common problem when RP and game mechanics clash.

Maybe think about it this way: you want to save your sister and get revenge, sure, but there's other stuff demanding your attention, too. Is your personal quest really more important than saving an entire town being ravaged by wild animals? Is one little sister more valuable than the lives of all the people in de'Arnise Keep?
And if you're evil... who cares about Imoen, you want to get even with Jonnyboy! But he *is* a powerful mage, and stripped you of all your gear... better find some peasants to extort and some temples to loot, wouldn't want to go in unprepared!

Either way, there's certainly RP arguments that make it plausible. Some require a bit of stretching to be sure... But in the end, games just aren't at a level yet where they can accommodate every personal decision and preference perfectly. There have to be compromises somewhere, and design decisions aimed at an "average" player - which includes RP folks as well as "pure" gamers.

kab

It requires a lot of stretching and it nags at you. It's an immersion breaker. An unnecessary immersion breaker. They could have easily left Imoen out of it until you start seeking out Irenicus, then kidnapped her, as an example.

Now I personally can't stand Imoen. That she shows up in the dungeon prattling on as if she's actually SEEN the PC since being told to take a hike within sight of Candlekeep is only slightly less annoying than Jaheira's forced "traveling with you" dialogue when the PC has not traveled with you. Obviously the (again unnecessary) forced canon that has no continuity with your RP choices is somewhere around second on my list. Point is my PC couldn't care less about her, although if they're good they might care about her fate regardless. It's still annoying and I dislike when the writing takes this direction in a game that is supposedly open, non-linear and roleplaying.

Lord_Tansheron

Well as I said, you have to find a balance, and draw limits somewhere. There's always a way to look at things as immersion-breaking or illogical, simply because they do not fit your personal story. Until we perfect AI technology to a point where the game can dynamically deal with your preferences, that'll just be how things are in computer games.

Keep in mind that this game is over a decade old. For the time, it offered quite a lot of freedom, RP, and story all bundled into one. It is amazing how well it has aged in that respect, considering how linear and on-rails modern games tend to be.

And never forget that this game is also played by people who aren't RPers, but gamers. If you make too many compromises in the name of RP, these people will be turned off; and their right to enjoyment of the game is no stronger than any RPer's. As a game designer, there will necessarily be choices that have to be made in one way or another. You can never please everyone - if you try, you just end up with a product that pleases no one. Tough calls are a reality of the constraints of computer game design and the available technology, and a certain breaking of immersion and suspension of disbelief an unavoidable consequence.

necaradan666

Don't your companions actually discuss this with you just after escaping irenicus' dungeon? I seem to remember minsc advocating an immediate rescue and jaheria advising taking the time to gather power and information before rushing off.

While my heroic character wanted in his heart to agree with minsc because he couldn't fathom his sister being taken he also understood the wisdom in jaherias words.

Personally I used to do every available sidequest before heading off to spellhold because after that point you have to face the underdark or the fishdudes, and then vampires -> endgame and none of those are pushovers.

Just a comment on what kab says above: that party you start with in BG2 was basically the exact makeup of the party I used, my bro used and many of my friends used back in the day for BG1. At least for my 'legacy' game. Of course I played BG1 to death and tried every combination but my 'true' party, the one I made my own canon story with, was the party they left me with at the start of BG2.. obviously I was deliriously happy they officially chose that party; but then I believe many people did so because those characters were the *most basic* good guy party, the ones you get to recruit first in BG1 if you played along with the story and the ones that were favourites eg minsc... and that's why it was the way it was.

the_spyder

ChildofBhaal599 said:

a lot is going on when you get back. I don't want to spoil any main story but it will feel very weird going to do all of those sub quests when there is so much happening. it is easier for me to just pretend that the price to get help is much higher than the game says and so I must do so much work to get to her

"Revenge is a dish best served COLD. It is very COLD in space, Kirk."

After rescuing Imoen, you have a taste of how powerful your enemy is and may wish to make sure you are fully prepared. Plus, who wants to be pushed around by PEFs?

Purudaya

If I'm playing good, I always just RP my character as horribly conflicted - he wants to rescue Imoen right away, but he knows she's not in immediate danger and there are people all around him whose lives are at risk. Every sidequest he goes on he does with the knowledge that he is prolonging Imoen's captivity and with the hope that she would understand his need to help others. There's a lot of other ways to RP this: maybe your character secretly doubts his own prowess and fears that Irenicus will destroy them both if he escalates the situation, so he has to come as prepared as possible. Maybe he's a strict pragmatist and can't justify leaving others defenseless (D'Arnise Keep, slaves, etc) for the sake of one person.

In any case, I wouldn't worry about it. Just play the game as it feels most natural and the story will generally jive nicely with your gameplay. As for waiting to add Imoen and XP worries, she catches up relatively quickly iirc.

Gallowglass

IIRC, if you do most of the side-quests before rescuing Imoen, then (when you finally reach her) she'll be somewhere around 1,000,000 XP behind your protagonist. That sounds an enormous amount in BG1 terms, but that's only 2-3 levels in the later stages of the game, and also a couple of levels makes much less difference in the later stages. By the time you're back on the mainland, Imoen is already back to fully earning her place in your party. (And if you really feel the need to bring her up to exactly the same score as your protagonist, then you can do that with the Machine of Lum the Mad in Watcher's Keep.)

taltamir

Lord_Tansheron said:

It's definitely possible. Simply do the Thieves Guild sidequests before you side with Bodhi, then proceed to eradicate them. You can kill off the Thieves Guild leadership even beyond what Bodhi demands of you - in fact, it's quite profitable to do so, as Renal Bloodscalps holds a pair of precious Boots of Speed.

Eradicate them being both sides or just the shadow thieves?

Lord_Tansheron said:

You do get the special "unkillable" NPC, Arkanis Gath, when you attack him though, whose hits cause instant death. There is a way around that: either have Death Ward up on everyone, or make them immune to +3 magical weapons (Protection from Magic Weapons, Mantle, etc.). You can then either run away and ignore Arkanis Gath, or (if your level is high enough) use Shapechange: Mind Flayer to drain his INT score, thus killing him through his "unkillable" protections. Any other stat/level drain works, too, of course.

Ah, so there ARE unkillable enemies to worry about, just like I thought.
Isn't he a harmless merchant? Yea, I think I will use cheats on that fight and just call it debugging.

Lord_Tansheron said:

Keep in mind that if you do want to do this, you will need to kill Renal before you side with Bodhi, as he will despawn when you do. Save Aran Linvail and the rest for Bodhi's quest, you'll get to kill everyone all the same eventually, but if you do it prematurely you may run into troubles finishing the quest.

Can you elaborate on this part. Do I just use the attack command on a friendly renal (then fight my way out of the thief guild) before going to bodhi?
According to walkthroughs I have read, if I side with bodhi I must NOT kill Arkanis Gath, as talking to him is the only way to reach the leader of the shadow thieves and finish ch3.

BTW, do I absolutely have to side with the vampires in order to kill both guilds?
I really loathe vampires and would prefer to side with the shadow thieves and then double cross them.

Lord_Tansheron

"Eradicate both" as in you get to kill the Shadow Thieves first, and then Bodhi and her ilk once you return from the Underdark. There is no way to kill both *before* you go, as you require their help to get to Spellhold.

I don't know about Arkanis Gath being required, it may be a different version of the same NPC. The kill-you-all version spawns as soon as you attack friendly Shadow Thieves, as a built-in insurance against screwing up the main quest by murdering the wrong people. If you circumvent him through the above-mentioned means, I do not entirely remember what happens.

As for Renal, yes, you just attack him and fight your way out before joining Bodhi. Once you join her, afaik Renal will despawn and no longer be there, so you have to do it before. He and his people (in that room) have nothing to do with the main quest afaik, just the Mae'var sidequest.

Unfortunately there is no way to double-cross the Shadow Thieves. If you attack them before you depart, you'll either get murdered by Arkanis Gath or (assuming you survive) have screwed up things beyond repair. After you accept their help in departing the city, there is no opportunity to attack them before you leave, though I suppose you could do it after you return. It won't be in line with the story the same way it would be if you side with Bodhi, but both factions would be gone.

taltamir

When I get back, do I just attack bodhi or is there a special dialog saying "I will kill you"?

Does killing renal ruin my chances of getting to ch3 through them? or can I kill renal, then bodhi, then talk to the guy who asked me for 20k?

Lord_Tansheron

If you side with the Shadow Thieves, you will be sent out to eradicate Bodhi and her vampires in Chapter 3; if you side with Bodhi, you will be sent out to eradicate the Shadow Thieves instead.

Regardless of what you pick, when you return in Chapter 6, Bodhi will be your enemy. Killing her is a necessity for the main quest, so you *will* do it regardless. Killing the Shadow Thieves at that point however is not part of any quest, and should you choose to do it that is entirely on you. The only way to kill them as part of the "regular" game progress is by siding with Bodhi in Chapter 3 - and as I said, regardless of what you do Bodhi will die by your ahnd in Chapter 6 anyway.

I don't know what Renal does to your Shadow Thieves standing, and whether or not it will block you from progress. It's possible that they are unrelated and that you can kill Renal, then pay the 20k and proceed normally; someone who's tried that will have to answer you. You cannot kill Bodhi in Chapter 3 unless you side with the Shadow Thieves, as she is required to progress if you side with her. Same goes for Aran Linvail if you side with the Shadow Thieves.