Un-holy avenger and a Helmet spell

Lateralus

^ We need an un-holy avenger for Dorn, and a kick ass quest to gain it!

^ Here's an idea for a spell. HELMET. There is no nice way to put this, every single arcane caster in the land is a moron. They have been casting armor without the helmet since the birth of magic. Or how about any spell that protects against crits.

Gave

Lots of things would make sense if only for reality checks, but balancing has to be factored in, and the mage defensive buffs are already too powerful.

Hint: Just cast stoneskin and forget about getting hit at all...

Now for monks, bards, and thiefs who occasionally find themselves in brawl range... for them there should be some measure to get at least a 10-40% chance to roll a save vs crit.

With that said, you are right, just mind that forcing everything to make sense would be rather tough to balance in a world setting like Faerun.

For the anti holy avenger, I think two handed swords are one of the best supported class of weapons. There are seriously amazing alternatives..

There are many other categories of weapons that need some attention...

ZanathKariashi

Technically helmets don't do $%#^ against crits (and every suit of armor is assumed to include a helmet, including the armor spell, but not the shield spell) and that function should actually be removed, except on very rare pieces of highly expensive gear that does nothing except block crits. Crit protection is an extremely high level magical property, not something any item crammed into a head slot gives.

worn helms are simply assumed to replace the helm your armor came with (even leather armors), to provide additional benefits, such as what the helm of Balduran or Helm of Infravision brings.


Wouldn't work as blackguards don't have an unholy sword class feature, since blackguads aren't actually paladins. And blackguards are already much more offensively powerful then a paladin can ever be, with their aura, poison use, command undead, and inflict spells in place of healing spells.

Lateralus

Why is it that everytime I suggest something, people want to complain about and redo the rules. I expect better imagination on a forum like this, as DnD nerds we are supposed to have great immaginations.

Here's the thing, the rules are not going to change. The end.

Introducing critical hit immunity to an already overpowered class is not a big deal, at all. In fact, it will make them consider taking the Helmet spell and occupying a spell slot that would otherwise go towards a different spell. Magic can do just about everything any other class can accomplish. Mages can have 100 open locks just by studying Knock, a Helmet spell is simply par for the course.

I never said the un-holy avenger had to be a two-handed sword. Back in the day, when I played PnP, it was thought silly for it to be 2hs. Make it a mace or a longsword. Dorn can study a new weapon.

I could imagine the sword of Grazz't as an awesome choice. A massive bastard sword that drips acid, and can only be used by evil. Something unique for evil.

ZanathKariashi

Except that mages have extremely limited spell slots per day, and 2nd level is full of FAR more useful spells then knock. For every self-buff or utility spell the mage brings, there less reason to bring the mage in the first place when you could've just brought someone else who can do those things all day long without stopping.

It's not a matter of imagination or not, it's that Bioware $#%^'d up and left a huge mess of contradictory and inconsistent house rules, that really need to be sorted out and fixed before anything new is pointlessly added.

Warriors don't need crit protection. But they're currently the only ones who get it, despite everyone else being just as likely to get attacked, especially by ranged weapons, and much more vulnerable to being one shotted by a crit for much longer.

A crit protection spell would be around 7th or 8th level, which makes it completely pointless as implemented, cause a mage will have access to Ioun stones before then.

Lateralus

Again, the rules will not change. They are what they are. There are hundreds of other RP games and hundreds of different rules. BG is quirky, and that's the way we like it. As soon as everybody gets on board with the games mechanics, the sooner we can debate the fun issues.

Like:

1. What level should the helmet spell be?
2. Should there be a higher level version of the spell called Great Helmet?
3. What should the duration be?
4. Is it a caster only?

And hey boo hoo if the mages don't have enough spell slots to render other classes obsolete. Do you seriously think a Helmet spell is going to make fighters less of a need?!

Dee

I'd make it a level 1 spell. Critical hits don't happen often enough to make it higher level than that, and unless you're giving it more than just the "helmet" effect, this would be slightly less useful than a Shield spell (considering that Shield protects against Magic Missile, which is a more common effect).

Lateralus

Dee said:

I'd make it a level 1 spell. Critical hits don't happen often enough to make it higher level than that, and unless you're giving it more than just the "helmet" effect, this would be slightly less useful than a Shield spell (considering that Shield protects against Magic Missile, which is a more common effect).

We could beef it up? Maybe add in half damage from backstabs? Or a +2 to save vs. mind altering spells?

I'd also like to think of this as a turn based duration spell, similar to shield.

ZanathKariashi

8th level. 1 turn duration, only blocks a single crit. (since the closest thing I could find is an 8th level divination spell that guarantees the target's next attack within 1 minute will be a natural 20).

Lateralus

Like Dee said, you only have a 5% probability of the spell being useful, so 1st or 2nd level would be fine. I actually think it's rather cool to have Armor, Shield, and Helmet all available at level 1. The full suit!

If the Helmet spell only protects against crits, then maybe the duration should be hourly, and perhaps the protection should only be 50%. A 3rd level version called great helmet could be 100% immune. Or we could spice up the 1st level version and lower the duration. Or just have the spell with a round duration, as just kind of a OH crap i am in melee spell.

Lateralus

My Blade would use it all the time, even despite the fact that he cant wear a ring of wizardry.

ZanathKariashi

I'd personally rather IF they intend to leave crit protection in (i'd rather see it removed entirely), to just fold it into suits of armor, instead of helms, so anyone wearing leather or higher is protected from crits (due to the head-gear assumed to be part of every suit of armor), while mages could cast armor/ghost armor/spirit armor for the same effect.



Personally the spell sounds retarded and will be about as useful as Infravision (which is supposed to be 3rd level instead of 1st) due to being an utter waste of a spell-slot 99.999999999999% of the time.

Lateralus

If it sounds retarded, then if I were you I wouldn't spend so much time in this thread. People might find you retarded by association.

ZanathKariashi

Someone has to be a voice of reason in this all madness. And one day..just maybe...BG will throw off it's shackles of shoddy implementation and horrible decisions and be a game genuinely worth playing, to both noob and veteran alike...hell even the Powergamers can have fun after they get over all their broken mechanics and items being removed and balanced, since there's still room for min/maxing, just not as blatant as current.


Do I want to play a broken, barely implemented class or a broken, ridiculously overpowered class...there is no middle ground.

Dee

@ZanathKariashi, I think you need to dial back the crusade against the game's rules implementation, at least in other people's feature requests threads. It's starting to look less like helpful feedback and more like spam. (This isn't the first time I've pointed this out, either.)

Lateralus

@ZanathKariashi I played 2ndEd PnP since I was around age 13, so finding a modern day game that supports thoses rules is a real time machine for me. Modernising the rules would be like erasing the past, i'd rather celebrate it, and appreciate it.

There are a ton of other games that have "realistic" rules or whatever it is you're looking for.

Having said that, we had house rules back in the day. One of our rules was arrow prongs. Instead of an arrow doing a d8 ours did 1d4 per prong, minimum 2 maximum 8.

The DMs here have a helmet rule, my aim isn't to upset the house rules but rather expand upon them. Rules lawyers always slow the game down, just enjoy the rules for what they are.

ZanathKariashi

At what point did I ever suggest modernizing.....I want the actual 2nd Ed rules, not this bastardized hodge-podge of contradictory house rules that clearly favor some classes while telling others to go $%#^ themselves. Yes 2nd Ed was imbalanced to a degree, but even therein were balances. BG has largely ripped out ALL balancing factors for classes the developers clearly liked, and didn't even bother properly implementing features of classes they obviously didn't, creating the problems that have plagued the game since release.

And some like this crit issue should've never happen. Although.....I suppose limiting head-slot crit immunity to just normal and lower might be a nice compromise. I mean that is kind of the point of having a difficulty setting in the first place.

God

Well, I always found it silly that a warrior clad in full plate armor who chooses not to wear a helmet for whatever reason (be it improved vision or +1 to CHA) is prone to being critically wounded whilst a dingbat running around in mundane clothing but having a piece of iron tied to his head is invulnerable. I would surely like to play a Baldur's Gate as envisioned by @ZanathKariashi, though I am quite convinced this is unlikely to ever occur. Baldur's Gate was designed with not-so-much regard to precise D&D rules, it was more of an attempt to imitate the general experience of playing D&D by means of using (rather limited, in the day) computer capabilities. Needless to say, it was a rather lousy attempt. Nonetheless, I'd rather leave good old BG as it is. It might be a good idea, though, to think things through more thoroughly and plan better, should a BG3 ever come to be. Yes. Though I am aware the dream of a well-done BG3 was shattered the day it was conceived. It will turn out to be medium-rare, at best. Well, many enjoy it medium-rare, don't they?

As for the proposed features themselves, I think there is little need to implement them. Both the spell(s) and the 'un-holy avenger' weapon could easily be done by modders. In fact, I could get that in the game by myself in a couple of minutes (except for the quest, which could take a while longer) if I wanted and I am by no means a master of Infinity Engine modding. So, in my view, it is rather unnecessary to flail at the doors of the devs while you could actually ask some eager modder or do it yourself. Saves the hassle, too.

ZanathKariashi

Yeah, unholy sword is easy enough, just mod the Unholy Reaver to be Blackguard only and give it....hmm... 25% chance to kill the target if they fail a save vs death at -2 (1d12+5, with a vorpal effect sounds nice, and the sword is already flagged as anti-paladin only). Easily do-able in about 2 minutes or less with NI...maybe 10 if you don't know where to scavenge effect data from.

Lateralus

God said:

Well, I always found it silly that a warrior clad in full plate armor who chooses not to wear a helmet for whatever reason (be it improved vision or +1 to CHA) is prone to being critically wounded whilst a dingbat running around in mundane clothing but having a piece of iron tied to his head is invulnerable. I would surely like to play a Baldur's Gate as envisioned by @ZanathKariashi, though I am quite convinced this is unlikely to ever occur. Baldur's Gate was designed with not-so-much regard to precise D&D rules, it was more of an attempt to imitate the general experience of playing D&D by means of using (rather limited, in the day) computer capabilities. Needless to say, it was a rather lousy attempt. Nonetheless, I'd rather leave good old BG as it is. It might be a good idea, though, to think things through more thoroughly and plan better, should a BG3 ever come to be. Yes. Though I am aware the dream of a well-done BG3 was shattered the day it was conceived. It will turn out to be medium-rare, at best. Well, many enjoy it medium-rare, don't they?

As for the proposed features themselves, I think there is little need to implement them. Both the spell(s) and the 'un-holy avenger' weapon could easily be done by modders. In fact, I could get that in the game by myself in a couple of minutes (except for the quest, which could take a while longer) if I wanted and I am by no means a master of Infinity Engine modding. So, in my view, it is rather unnecessary to flail at the doors of the devs while you could actually ask some eager modder or do it yourself. Saves the hassle, too.

I dont mod. I tried but it's mac, and I don't get it. You can create new spells with it?

ZanathKariashi

The helmet spell, I'm not sure....but it should be possible. Just have it create a non-removable conjured item to go in the head-slot of the character sheet (basically just need to figure out what the value for the head slot is) for x amount of time, since ANYTHING in the headslot will block crits. Haven't done anything like that myself though, might give it a go later, just to confirm the steps.

I have modded a couple spells to be closer to PnP accurate effects, as long as it can be done with existing effects. (like adding the permanent -1 Con to raise dead/resurrection).

The sword though is very do-able, you can easily just steal effects you need off other weapons/equipment you know provides an effect you're wanting.

My crowning achievement thus far is a pretty much PnP accurate Hammer of Thunderbolts and Crom-Faeyr (assuming Crom-Faeyr is simply an awakened hammer of thunderbolts that has been permanently activated by fusing the gauntlets/belt directly to the hammer, as opposed to just wearing them). The only thing I couldn't do, since it requires actual scripting, is having the Hammer of Thunderbolts give it's awakened benefits when wearing the ogre gauntlets/frost giant belt, as opposed to having it crafted into Crom-Faeyr.

Hammer of Thunderbolts - (2-Handed)
Melee-mode:
2d4+3, +1 Electrical

Ranged-mode: (uses lightning bolt projectile graphic)
Sets apr to 1
2d4+3, +1d4 electrical

Crom-Faeyr - (2-Handed)

Melee-mode:
Sets str to 24
Kills trolls, golem, and giants on hit, no save.
2d4+5, +1 electrical

Ranged-mode: (Uses lightning bolt projectile graphic)
Sets apr to 1
Sets str to 24
Kills trolls, golem, and giants, on hit, no save.
2d4+5, +1d10 electrical damage (causes lightning strike graphic on impact)
On-hit: 10ft radius save or be stunned and deafened for 1 round (Deafened lasts until dispelled) centered on target.


So yeah...with regard to making your own items or modifications to existing ones, NI can do quite a bit.