NPC Kits

EntropyXII

Would it at all be possible for the future to assign kits towards certain NPC's?

In BG1 all NPC's remain unchanged, keeping their vanilla classes from the vanilla BG game.

How would people feel if Ajantis was no longer just a paladin, but a Cavalier?

If Kivan was no longer just a ranger, but an Archer?

They don't even have to be kits available to the PC. How about a priestess of Shar kit for Viconia?

It's something to think about, and I myself think that it would add much variety into the game in regards to NPC's. At the moment (at least in BG1) NPC's appear a little too average and plain when the PC ends up with much more choice.

Is this something that will be possible within the current contract limitations?

ZanathKariashi

Kivan would be a stalker, not an archer....he's melee oriented, and what is he doing when we find him? STALKING BANDITS. He's basically an Elf version of Valygar (or more accurately, Valygar is a human version of him) with higher str, except Bandit (and drow) hating instead of mage hating. They even talk the same amount and both hate a guy whose name ends in "ok"

Though yeah I agree about Ajantis. And Faldorn would definitely be an Avenger, if the kit wasn't stuipidly overpowered.

those are the only 3 though. Minsc is a ranger for better or worse, and the only kit even reasonably applicable is the beastmaster...which...what would Minsc be with "Words, not swords!". Better just left as a normal ranger with a head wound induced rage ability.

Viconia is fine as is, her illegally high MR that doesn't degrade is benefit enough. And at lot of people would avoid her if she was unable to cast any healing or raising spells, as per all of Shar's specialty priests.

EntropyXII

@ZanathKariashi - Fair enough, but you see my point however? NPC's could be much more interesting if given suitable kits.

I made Kivan an Archer because for some reason there is no Elven Archer in BG1 or BG2. We need the cliche Elven Archer prancing about like Legolas in tights! It is simply not fantasy otherwise! =D

ZanathKariashi

Coran is your Elven "archer"...he even cheated to be much better at it then he should be.

EntropyXII

@ZanathKariashi - Agreed, but as Coran is a fighter/thief I reckon it would be breaking the contract if the dev's changed his base class altogether =(

ZanathKariashi

And what would the difference in an archer be? 2 more damage and called shot but sucky melee, or good at everything with no penalty, can backstab, and brings thief utility.

EntropyXII

@ZanathKariashi - if I remember correctly, Coran is canonically a thief. He steals stuff. I could be misremembering though.

ZanathKariashi

He's basically a non-evil Eldoth, he's just a neutral playboy/con-man who goes adventuring when things get too hot. And no...Kivan is in no way a Legolas, no matter HOW you try to spin him, he's a bitter, withdrawn loner totally committed to his vengeance.

EntropyXII

@ZanathKariashi - He's a bloody tights wearing, pointy eared elf - a scallywag!

Erg

@EntropyXII

What you are proposing is better done with mods, so different players can give different kits to NPCs, or the same player can use different kits in different playthroughs. This kind of flexibility is simply not possible otherwise.

The best mod to date to give kits to NPCs is Level 1 NPCs . Unfortunately it is not yet compatible with BGEE.

EntropyXII

You make an excellent point @Erg. i did not think of this. I humbly retract my feature request.

I would however love to know when this level 1 NPC's mod will be out for EE. Any news?

Erg

EntropyXII said:

I would however love to know when this level 1 NPC's mod will be out for EE. Any news?

The most up to date information on the status of this mod, to my knowledge, can be found on the G3 Forums, in particular in this discussion.

Gideon_Laier

*Casts Resurrection*

I think that a lot of NPC's could benefit from being spiced up and added a Kit. While I don't think that every NPC needs one, I do think that some clearly lend themselves to a more specific specialization. I feel like this would have been implemented had Baldur's Gate 1 been revised or released with Baldur's Gate 2. BG2 has kits and non-kitted characters, BGI should lend itself to the same style as already been indicated with the introduction of Dorn and Neera.

Some NPC's that I think could be more specific:

Rasaad: Sun Soul Monk
Minsc: Berserker or Barbarian
Safana: Swashbuckler
Kaigan: Dwarven Defender
Yeslick: Priest of Lathander
Faldorn: Avenger
Montaron: Assassin
Eldoth: Blade
Sharteel: Berserker
Ajantis: Priest of Helm/Fighter (like Anomen) or Cavalier
Kivan: Archer or Stalker

NPC specific classes
Tiax: Priest of Cyric
Viconia: Priest of Shar
Branwen: Priest of Tempus

I understand that there's that NPC mod, but I still think that this would be an interesting feature. Even if some of the NPC's were included in a poll or something.

KidCarnival

Rasaad: Sun Soul Monk <-- already done
Yeslick: Priest of Lathander <-- kit with zero downsides in multiclass + Dispel Magic/day? OP, anyone? Plus, I don't think he actually worships Lathander.
Montaron: Assassin <-- again, kit in multiclass; not as OP as Yeslick, but still illegal
Eldoth: Blade <-- WUT? Blade is melee oriented, his ability is creating arrows. If anything, jester (due to mocking enemies) or a custom charlatan kit
Ajantis: Priest of Helm/Fighter (like Anomen) or Cavalier <-- couldn't be done; he's human and would need to dual. If you get him at low level, he'd be just another cleric
Kivan: Archer or Stalker <-- exactly; people are very undecided between 2 very different kits

While some NPCs certainly make sense with a kit (Faldorn --> Avenger, Branwen --> Priest of Tempus, Viconia --> Priest of Shar, Kagain --> Dwarven Defender, Safana --> Swashbuckler), it's still very dependant on the play style. It's better left to mods or EEKeeper, especially because some NPCs would end up with illegal combos.

Gideon_Laier

@KidCarnival the illegal combos you mentioned might be coming from you misconstruing some of what I meant with the characters (i.e. Montaron as a plain Assassin not an Assassin/Fighter multiclass).

Otherwise some of the custom classes, like the Charlatan you mentioned would be pretty cool and help spice some things up a bit. I get that it's dependent on play style, but at least the NPC's that make sense for kits should be changed - Safana is totally a swashbuckler! :P - and those that aren't can just be changed in title only ~ Like your Charlatan idea.

KidCarnival

Montaron as assassin is a bad idea tho. He's the only evil aligned thief to start with on low level, which keeps him versatile. As assassin, he would get less points and not be able to fill the role as a party's main thief. He also needs the fighter side for the theme in the paired NPCs; he is the Minsc to Xzar's Dynaheir; a frontline capable bodyguard to a caster.

Also, can't take credit, Charlatan kit for Eldoth is @Eudaemonium's idea.

Eudaemonium

@KidCarnival, don't tag me in threads I have never looked at before while I'm actually reading them, it induces strange feelings of paranoia and precognition.

Vis-a-vis Montaron. If one was to give him a pure Thief kit, the only one I've ever been inclined to create for him is the Thug.

The Thug:

"The Thug is the most violent sort of thief. Assassins are killers, certainly, but they depend on refinement and subtlety. Bounty Hunters also are willing to use violence, but are relatively restrained as well. The Thug, on the other hand, comes as close to the warrior as any Thief can.

Thugs function as enforcers, intimidating common people (especially in racketeering schemes), bodyguarding important guildsmen, and carrying out a guild’s threats of violence often enough to keep people suitably afraid. The few Thugs who are not guild-affiliated will usually be found as armed robbers or (if they are more intelligent) kidnappers or hijackers."

My mock-up advantages/disadvantages that I sketched out were:

Advantages:
- Advances using the Fighter THAC0 Table.
- Can Specialise in any weapon.
- Rolls from a d8 HD a level, instead of the standard d6.
- Able to use ‘Intimidate’ (works as Cloak of Fear) once per day for every four levels, starting with one use at first level.

Disadvantages:

- Only gets 20% skill points at level up.
- Reduced backstab multiplier (x2 at level 5; x3 at level 9) [due to lack of subtlety].

EntropyXII

@Eudaemonium - Love the idea of the thug but I can see that being quite powerful quite quickly. It is essentially a fighter/thief but with a much faster xp progression than both the fighter/thief, and even fighter. In the end you have something similar to the 'stalker', but one that improves in level at a much quicker rate.

Removing the fighter THAC0 progression table will balance this kit undeniably.

Eudaemonium

@EntropyXII: Yeah, I mean it was a kit idea I came up with ages back and I hadn't really tried to balance it much. I was basically trying to come up with a 'Fighter-like' Thief kit that was different to the Swashbuckler, so I kind of threw everything major in the pot and probably would have sorted it out later. The Thug would, of course, lose out on the Fighter APR from levels and specialisation, so I think I was trying to account for that with the THAC0 progression, you're right though in that the faster level progression would make it a bit unbalanced.

I should note that this was intended as a specifically Montaron kit, not one the PC would be able to select, so it was less about balance and more about what felt 'Montaron-y'.

KidCarnival

@Eudaemonium: I'm ̢a͏lwa͏ys͜ ̴sp͡y͘i͟n͡g̶ w̕ith̕ my m̴ajest́i͝c ey̢e͞.̀ He҉he͘.̷

A thug kit for Monty would work; it would make him a pure thief without losing the ability to function as Xzar's bodyguard and being non-multi, the lower skill points would be balanced by faster leveling. He'd still be a viable option as only party thief.

EntropyXII

@Eudaemonium - I actually think it would be an excellent kit for an evil-aligned PC. There are only a few kits/classes in this game that really match up for me in regards to CHARNAME.

For thieves:

Swashbuckler - Not a chance. Would likely have escaped Candlekeep at a much earlier age. The kit doesn't strike me as the type to enjoy being cooped up in a library.

Assassin - One of my favourites, but one I have to justify a little. Being the child of a deified assassin with a predisposition to murdering things. Could count as an innate ability.

Bounty Hunter - The most justifiable of all the kits. Let's face it: How many bounties do we hunt down as soon as we leave Candlekeep? Remember our favourite bountyhunter: Greywolf! This is the thief kit, the PC actually lives as after leaving his home (Assassin could work well here, as well)

Shadowdancer - Not a chance. Still struggling to justify it. Shadowdancer is a PrC in which a highly skilled stealth user becomes powerful enough to the point they can actually stealth into the Shadow Plane.

Thug - Sure - I mean, why not? A simply class/kit to factor in and justify for a PC. You typically roleplay a bully. How many wedgies did you give those Candlekeep monks again?

I guess an interesting way of balancing out the thug would be to fully remove some of the other thief skills. I can see a thug breaking down a door, rather than picking the lock. I can see a thug holding up a poor passer by, rather than picking their pocket.

I would suggest completely removing stealth, but then what would be the point of backstab? Perhaps taking a hefty level one hit to stealth skills and then having to work really hard to get them to the levels that they'll be usable? OR go by the new Shadowdancer backstab progression table. That could work!

Eudaemonium

Well, just checking the Complete Book of Thieves, Thugs are actually given a penalty to starting Thief Points (the manual says 40, but all thieves in BG get 40, so maybe reduce it to 30 like the Shadowdancer). They also get a bonus proficiency slot at level 1 (which would give them 3 rather than 2) and a +1 bonus to THAC0 rolls. They can also become proficient in any weapon, not just the usual Thief ones. I think I gave my Thug a bit more flavour than that, though XD. Also, I'm not sure if you can alter what weapons are available to take for each kit (though you can edit to what level of proficiency they can take them).

I think my goal was to kind of make the Thug a kind of 'Barbarian' of Thieves, with a more tanky role (higher HP). Ideally, I like @EntropyXII 's idea of limiting the actual Thieving skills they can get, but this would only work if they got some kind of large passive bonus to breaking open locked objects (which is currently just done by Strength score, I believe, which doesn't really work for Montaron with his 17 Str). Currently my inclination would be to remove Fighter THAC0 progression in favour of a passive +1 to hit at level one. Also, since backstab has been externalised, maybe given them a different backstab progression than just a -1 reduction.

EntropyXII

@Eudaemonium - It is possible to alter which weapon proficiencies each kit gets as far as I'm aware. Avengers RR mod limits the Jester to weapons only usable by the thief, so I am sure it will be possible to open up a rogue's weapon proficiencies to that of a fighter, or bard.

A flat +1 to hit and damage at level one would be an excellent idea, with the thug gaining access to all weapons.

I don't think there needs to be any kind of passive ability to break open locks really - I think that could just be one of the disadvantages of the class. If the thug wants to smash open harder locks, then the thug needs more strength. It is definitely doable and could easilly be implimented by simply removing 'Pick pocket' and 'Open lock' from the thugs standard thief skills.

I really like the sound of this Thug kit. It sounds balanced, justifiable and interesting.

Eudaemonium

@EntropyXII: The issue with broadening the pool of weapon selection for the Thug is the way the usability flags work. Essentially you'd have to mod every single Fighter weapon in the game to be usable by the Thug, which is more difficult than limiting proficiencies for the Jester. At least in my mind, it might not very likely be easier in reality. I think giving them the options to specialise in Thief weapons is probably simpler to code, at the very least, even if Thugs should probably be running around with 2H swords and other large intimidating weapons.

The Open Locks thing is mainly an issue for me because (in my heart of hearts) I think of the kit as a kit for Montaron, and I wouldn't really want to limit his possible utility as the party thief. As a PC kit I think it makes sense as a penalty. I definitely agree on the Pick Pockets, though, but yet again Monty is a halfling (and technically Halfings can't actually *be* Thugs, since they are meant to be larger and imposing. Monty being one was going to be part of his, ahem, "charm").

Btw, Thugs in PnP need a minimum of 12 Str and Con, and cannot have higher than 12 Int. So Monty would be a very smart Thug!

EntropyXII

@Eudaemonium - Aha, I think I understand. My modding capabilities aren't their greatest but would it not be possible to edit the stringref (I have no idea what this really means, I am just trying to sound smart) to recognise the thug as a bard or fighter, yet change the class/kit description to identify as a thief?

Or to make it much more simple: Make the thug kit a fighter kit with some thief abilities?

I know there are a ton of kit requests in the forums already but I am wondering if it might be worth starting "A completely reasonable, justifiable and balanced kit request thread." Maybe if we keep it based around 2nd edition and not overpowered, they might be considered! Just a thought.

Another one I would love to see implemented is the Bard kit 'Loremaster.' Being right out of Candlekeep I cannot think of any other kit more justifiable.