Berserker Discussion
Dragonfolk2000
Member Posts: 388
I want to talk about the Berserker. I feel that the barbarian is leaps and bounds better and I am wondering if I am missing something here. Anyone care to discuss the matter?
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Also, people don't usually mind necroing. This forum isn't so old that things become irrelevant - if you have new contributions to the discussion, you are encouraged to contribute, even in an old thread. If you don't, then the thread hopefully helped to answer your questions. Win-win!
Berserkers can dual-class, Barbarians cannot.
Berserker rage does not impose an AC penalty like Barbarian rage, in fact it gives a bonus.
Berserker rage gives immunity to imprisonment, Barbarian rage does not.
For high STR characters, the +damage from Berserker rage is better than +STR from Barbarian rage.
Berserkers can wear a wider variety of armour than Barbarians.
Berserker duals are very useful due to their immunities while raging and grandmastery without the armour limitations of Kensai duals.
Barbarians are faster, get slightly more HP and eventually get damage reduction.
they get the same relevant immunities (i.e there is no imprisonment in bgee)
they get + save vs spells while enraged
no cool down after raging
marginally better HP
immune to backstab
increased movement better for kiting in the large bg areas
but yeah, really berserkers are only slightly behind and then waaaaay outstrip in bg2 by achieving GM
Berserkers are more tankish, being able to wear heavier armor, and have a couple more defenses added to their rage, mainly Imprisionment immunity and a (wrongly implemented) +2 ac bonus (supposed to be a penalty).
Barbarians, have slightly worse armor access (but not by much), but also have higher base speed and potentially more HP per level, allowing them to either close the distance quicker to minimize the amount of attacks ranged attackers get, or can strike quickly and move out of melee range with regard to strong physical attackers.
Depending on your str score, the barbarian will usually be more offensively powerful, but if your strength is very low or maxed, the berserker's will deal more damage due to it being a flat bonus hit/damage instead of a bonus to str. The barbarian also gets more HP (but only slightly) then a berserker while raging and never risks being killed by the rage ending at low hp.
From an overall min/max standpoint, the Berserker is better, but the difference is so minor, which playstyle you prefer is a much more important concern.
Berserker - Tank (Immune to imprisonment while raging)
Barbarian - Speedy damage dealer that becomes progressively harder to kill, and at the end actually dethrowns the berserker in out-right tanking ability while dealing slightly less damage, depending on str score. Rivaling a F/C multi-class or Paladin in sheer damage reduction (only 5% less overall). Their benefits put them roughly on par with a paladin, so the lack of dual-classing isn't really a penalty per-say, since they're already basically a fighter/cleric multi that levels faster, but has slightly weaker benefits to compensate.
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Now, since it was requested, my feelings on the matter of implementation have been stated a lot, in other threads. But I'll restate the main points since as I recall they were actually pretty spread out in the previous threads.
The berserker is broken. Their penalty is a joke, their rage is missing it's main penalties (being winded is part of it, but not the REAL penalty), and has even stronger bonuses on top then what it should.
(If my wild mage can risk wild surges that can end the whole party, a Berserker can risk losing control and possibly getting themselves killed...but a berserker losing control is MUCH less dangerous, even to the character himself then a wild surge ever is)
What would a more PnP accurate berserker look like in BG?
(As fighter except where mentioned)
Benefits-
Enrage - 1 round cast time - Immunities (Command, Sleep, Charm, Fear and Panic), +4 saves vs Hold/Paralysis. +1 hit, +3 damage, +5 temp hp, -2 ac penalty for 10 rounds. 10% chance per round of going Berserk for 3 rounds. Prevents all healing spells/effects and constant Death Ward while raging. When the rage ends, the berserker is winded, suffering a -2 penalty to hit/damage/saves/ac for 10 rounds. Attempts to enrage again while winded will fail.
Penalties-
Winded after raging, and chance of loss of control while raging (described above).
Limited to a maximum of Specialization (**)
Cannot use ranged weapons that lack a melee component.
Cannot use thief skills or cast spells while enraged or winded.
The barbarian as implemented is actually very close to PnP accurate, the only real difference between them is the effects of their rages. (PnP barbarians can technically use any armor they want, but heavier armors (base AC better then 4, to be specific) disable their speed bonus and BS immunity, due to restricting their movement and reaction speed).
BG - Immunity (charm, hold, fear, maze, confusion and level-drain), +2 saves vs spells, +4 str/Con, -2 ac penalty for 5 rounds.
PnP - Immunity (charm, sleep, command, morale failure), +4 resistance to hold/paralysis, blocks 1 failed fear save but ends the rage. Sets str to 18/00 for 5 rounds.
What would a more PnP-accurate Barbarian look like?
(As current barbarian except where mentioned)
Benefits-
Barbarian Rage - 1 round cast - Immunities (Sleep, Charm, Command, Fear, Morale failure), +4 to save vs hold/paralysis. If str is less then 19, sets str to 18/00. Lasts 5 rounds.
Penalties-
Can't use thief skills or cast spells while raging
(if you mod the ability to dualclass in, which is actually legit since Barbarians are functionally Fighter kits in both BG and PnP, even in the Complete Barbarian guide, which is mostly devoted to talking about their culture and roleplaying advice, with only a tiny handful of variants on the standard barbarian kit included).
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/19189/barbarian-vs-berserker-2-time-which-is-better/p1
In any case Barbarian is just better for the whole of the series. With strength boosting items his strength goes way up (without the need of potions or crom faeyr) he gets most of the immunities of a berserker, more health, and he eventually gets 20% physical damage resistance.
I agree with @ZanathKariashi that they are both really similar.
Rather think about, what character would you want to play?
Berserker - A tank, clad in heaviest of armors and masterfully wielding weapons. (Berserking is a bit better, can use full plate and gets weapon Grand Mastery. Can get winded during a fight.)
The epitome of fight rage and combat madness. If you aren't creating a dwarf, with axes and name him "Gotrek Gurnisson", you are doing something wrong.
Barbarian - Speedy, lighter, killing-machine that gets very sturdy later-on. (Dmg reduction, back-stab immunity, higher health pool). Coming from a war-ridden cultural heritage, the Barbarians are swift, deadly and enduring. Again... if your Barbarian does not wield bastard swords and is not named "Conan", you have no business with this class.
:-)
I'm not saying that I'm an forum guru but I've never been to a forum where reviving dead threads was appreciated. You are right about one thing though: this forum isn't nearly old enough for the old threads to become irrelevant. So I half-way agree with you. Win-win!
Thanks to @elminster for linking me the thread.
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Back to the topic on hand it appears my question has been answered. The two classes appear to be similar except that the berserker seems to be slightly stronger due to it being able to put 5 slots into any melee weapon and still wear the normal fighter armors. Also, imprisonment and maze sucks.
So now the reasonable thing to do is to not post in this thread anymore since the original poster has had his question answered and is satisfied (especially with a link to another thread). Funny thing about the thread that we are linked to though, it seems to link to the OTHER thread that was mentioned. Huh.